Vendor refusing to apply for retention

Chranchel · 13-02-2021 10:11pm #1

My partner and I have gone sale agreed on a house we were very excited about. Both first-time buyers.

It is in a rural area. After a surveyor report and we had 4 areas where we wanted clarification from the vendor:

1. Confirmation of original planning permission
2. Certificate of compliance for an agricultural outbuilding.
3. Declaration of Identity for the location of the septic tank percolation area
4. Declaration of Identity of the property boundaries, as our surveyor felt they were inconclusive based on property registration maps. A neighbour's house is separated by a small area that we don't own where mature trees are planted. The boundary questions are whether our property stops exactly at 'the edge' or maybe extends slightly into this small woodland. One area of question is quite close to our front gate. Not a showstopper in the scheme of things, but important to clarify.

After some solicitor back and forth, the vendor's solicitor isn't engaging constructively with the above requests.

1. They've provided an application number and drawings that were registered with the local authority for planning permission in 1996. But these drawings are different from the house built.
The vendor's solicitor says these drawings show that the premises as constructed were permitted.
Our read here is that the proper planning permission wasn't received. So the vendor should apply for retention, but they don't want to do this and hope to sell to us 'as is'.
2. Won't get an engineer out to get a certificate of compliance.
3. They say a declaration of identity is uncommon in this situation and are saying we should be ok to purchase as we see it. Happy for us to get an engineer to check that the percolation is within the area it should be.
4. Similar to 3. Our surveyor should be able to verify where exactly the boundary is (he wasn't).

So we have some decisions to make. I appreciate there is a lot in here.

Are we mad to be thinking that if our engineer is happy with the septic tank percolation area that we could buy anyway? And apply for retention on house and outbuilding in our own time?

Assuming this will cost us a fee per square metre and as part of this, we will have to upgrade the percolation system anyway.

LawBoy2018 · 13-02-2021 10:14pm

Chranchel wrote: »

My partner and I have gone sale agreed on a house we were very excited about. Both first-time buyers.

It is in a rural area. After a surveyor report and we had 4 areas where we wanted clarification from the vendor:

1. Confirmation of original planning permission
2. Certificate of compliance for an agricultural outbuilding.
3. Declaration of Identity for the location of the septic tank percolation area
4. Declaration of Identity of the property boundaries, as our surveyor felt they were inconclusive based on property registration maps. A neighbor's house is separated by a small area that we don't own where mature trees are planted. The boundary questions are whether our property stops exactly at 'the edge' or maybe extends slightly into this small woodland. One area of question is quite close to our front gate. Not a showstopper in the scheme of things, but important to clarify.

After some solicitor back and forth, the vendor's solicitor isn't engaging constructively with the above requests.

1. They've provided an application number and drawings that were registered with the local authority for planning permission in 1996. But these drawings are different from the house built.
The vendor's solicitor says these drawings show that the premises as constructed were permitted.
Our read here is that the proper planning permission wasn't received. So the vendor should apply for retention, but they don't want to do this and hope to sell to us 'as is'.
2. Won't get an engineer out to get a certificate of compliance.
3. They say a declaration of identity is uncommon in this situation and are saying we should be ok to purchase as we see it. Happy for us to get an engineer to check that the percolation is within the area it should be.
4. Similar to 2. Our surveyor should be able to verify where exactly the boundary is (he wasn't).

So we have some decisions to make. I appreciate there is a lot in here.

Are we mad to be thinking that if our engineer is happy with the septic tank percolation area that we could buy anyway? And apply for retention on house and outbuilding in our own time?

Assuming this will cost us a fee per square metre and as part of this, we will have to upgrade the percolation system anyway.

Why are they being so awkward?

mickdw · 13-02-2021 10:17pm

Chranchel wrote: »

My partner and I have gone sale agreed on a house we were very excited about. Both first-time buyers.

It is in a rural area. After a surveyor report and we had 4 areas where we wanted clarification from the vendor:

1. Confirmation of original planning permission
2. Certificate of compliance for an agricultural outbuilding.
3. Declaration of Identity for the location of the septic tank percolation area
4. Declaration of Identity of the property boundaries, as our surveyor felt they were inconclusive based on property registration maps. A neighbour's house is separated by a small area that we don't own where mature trees are planted. The boundary questions are whether our property stops exactly at 'the edge' or maybe extends slightly into this small woodland. One area of question is quite close to our front gate. Not a showstopper in the scheme of things, but important to clarify.

After some solicitor back and forth, the vendor's solicitor isn't engaging constructively with the above requests.

1. They've provided an application number and drawings that were registered with the local authority for planning permission in 1996. But these drawings are different from the house built.
The vendor's solicitor says these drawings show that the premises as constructed were permitted.
Our read here is that the proper planning permission wasn't received. So the vendor should apply for retention, but they don't want to do this and hope to sell to us 'as is'.
2. Won't get an engineer out to get a certificate of compliance.
3. They say a declaration of identity is uncommon in this situation and are saying we should be ok to purchase as we see it. Happy for us to get an engineer to check that the percolation is within the area it should be.
4. Similar to 3. Our surveyor should be able to verify where exactly the boundary is (he wasn't).

So we have some decisions to make. I appreciate there is a lot in here.

Are we mad to be thinking that if our engineer is happy with the septic tank percolation area that we could buy anyway? And apply for retention on house and outbuilding in our own time?

Assuming this will cost us a fee per square metre and as part of this, we will have to upgrade the percolation system anyway.

Ive met those kind of vendors.
Walk away. Sounds like the house is completely different to that granted.

Chranchel · 13-02-2021 10:35pm

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

Why are they being so awkward?

My best guess is, they reckon if they go back to the market they'll find someone willing to take it as is.

Pinoy adventure · 13-02-2021 10:39pm

Risky business here.
Unless they can sort out there issues I'd walk.
You will run into problems with this which will cost you a lot

Deagol · 13-02-2021 10:52pm

Went through something similar and the advise my solicitor gave was that since the building (in our case it was a block built shed that didn't have planning) was >12 years old and we could prove the age of it, and no one had complained then you essentially had planning retention automatically because there is a time limit on enforcement.

muffler · 13-02-2021 10:55pm

Deagol wrote: »

was >12 years old and we could prove the age of it, and no one had complained then you essentially had planning retention automatically because there is a time limit on enforcement.

No, you would be exempt from enforcement proceedings only but you would not have planning permission. Try making another application or try selling the house and your solicitor will deny all knowledge of having told you that.

muffler · 13-02-2021 10:58pm

Chranchel wrote: »

Are we mad to be thinking that if our engineer is happy with the septic tank percolation area that we could buy anyway? And apply for retention on house and outbuilding in our own time?

Yes, you cant buy solely on the basis of the septic tank/perc. area being within the confines of the site. You will have bigger fish to fry further down the road.

mickdw · 13-02-2021 10:59pm

Deagol wrote: »

Went through something similar and the advise my solicitor gave was that since the building (in our case it was a block built shed that didn't have planning) was >12 years old and we could prove the age of it, and no one had complained then you essentially had planning retention automatically because there is a time limit on enforcement.

They cant make you knock it but they can and will refuse all further development on site until regularised. If its a structure that they dont wish to grant permission for, you are at a stale mate and you may end up knocking the shed yourself.

Deagol · 13-02-2021 11:08pm

muffler wrote: »

No, you would be exempt from enforcement proceedings only but you would not have planning permission. Try making another application or try selling the house and your solicitor will deny all knowledge of having told you that.

Sold the house last year - no issues. Solicitor did say at the time that she advised that we should ask for retention BUT - in practical terms she said the chances of the issue coming back to bite us was minute but it was our risk.

When we sold, that was what we advised when we were asked about the planning and the buyers solicitor didn't raise it again.

Chranchel · 14-02-2021 11:29pm

Thanks for the replies above everyone. Much appreciated.

Say we can get happy with issues 3 & 4, the septic tank & boundary location.

If we purchase, and apply for retention ourselves, given the house has stood for 24 years and there haven't been any objections, what is the worst that could happen?

Is it a fee and neighbour objections to retention? How high could the fees go? And what could be enforced from the objections?

Gumbo · 15-02-2021 12:49am

Chranchel wrote: »

My partner and I have gone sale agreed on a house we were very excited about. Both first-time buyers.

It is in a rural area. After a surveyor report and we had 4 areas where we wanted clarification from the vendor:

1. Confirmation of original planning permission
2. Certificate of compliance for an agricultural outbuilding.
3. Declaration of Identity for the location of the septic tank percolation area
4. Declaration of Identity of the property boundaries, as our surveyor felt they were inconclusive based on property registration maps. A neighbour's house is separated by a small area that we don't own where mature trees are planted. The boundary questions are whether our property stops exactly at 'the edge' or maybe extends slightly into this small woodland. One area of question is quite close to our front gate. Not a showstopper in the scheme of things, but important to clarify.

After some solicitor back and forth, the vendor's solicitor isn't engaging constructively with the above requests.

1. They've provided an application number and drawings that were registered with the local authority for planning permission in 1996. But these drawings are different from the house built.
The vendor's solicitor says these drawings show that the premises as constructed were permitted.
Our read here is that the proper planning permission wasn't received. So the vendor should apply for retention, but they don't want to do this and hope to sell to us 'as is'.
2. Won't get an engineer out to get a certificate of compliance.
3. They say a declaration of identity is uncommon in this situation and are saying we should be ok to purchase as we see it. Happy for us to get an engineer to check that the percolation is within the area it should be.
4. Similar to 3. Our surveyor should be able to verify where exactly the boundary is (he wasn't).

So we have some decisions to make. I appreciate there is a lot in here.

Are we mad to be thinking that if our engineer is happy with the septic tank percolation area that we could buy anyway? And apply for retention on house and outbuilding in our own time?

Assuming this will cost us a fee per square metre and as part of this, we will have to upgrade the percolation system anyway.

Move on to the next house.

Gumbo · 15-02-2021 12:50am

Chranchel wrote: »

Thanks for the replies above everyone. Much appreciated.

Say we can get happy with issues 3 & 4, the septic tank & boundary location.

If we purchase, and apply for retention ourselves, given the house has stood for 24 years and there haven't been any objections, what is the worst that could happen?

Is it a fee and neighbour objections to retention? How high could the fees go? And what could be enforced from the objections?

Worse that can happen, refused retention. Conditions that force you to carry out expensive remedial,works to comply with the planning.

The chan chan man · 15-02-2021 12:53am

I agree with all the advice given..... however.... I can completely understand the vendors point of view. Rightly or wrongly - Why should he? Someone else will buy it anyway.

Mellor · 15-02-2021 8:16am

Chranchel wrote: »

1. They've provided an application number and drawings that were registered with the local authority for planning permission in 1996. But these drawings are different from the house built.
The vendor's solicitor says these drawings show that the premises as constructed were permitted.
Our read here is that the proper planning permission wasn't received. So the vendor should apply for retention, but they don't want to do this and hope to sell to us 'as is'.

They are not obligated to apply for retention.
When you've already gone sale agreed, you've virtually no leverage. Ican't see the benefit in them doing it tbh.

2. Won't get an engineer out to get a certificate of compliance.

Compliance with what exactly?

What difference does a certificate make for you at this stage. It's likely going to highlight non compliance, so is simply highlighting the as-is nature.

3. They say a declaration of identity is uncommon in this situation and are saying we should be ok to purchase as we see it. Happy for us to get an engineer to check that the percolation is within the area it should be.

If this is something you are concerned about, then it would be better to have your engineer look at it.

4. Similar to 3. Our surveyor should be able to verify where exactly the boundary is (he wasn't).

If your surveyor wasn't able to verify, why would another random surveyor be able to? I don't believe the document would have any legal bearing.

So we have some decisions to make. I appreciate there is a lot in here.

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

Why are they being so awkward?

Deagol wrote: »

...then you essentially had planning retention automatically because there is a time limit on enforcement.

You can't essentially have permission. Either you have it. Or you don't.
In your case you didn't

Homer · 15-02-2021 8:36am

As first time buyers there is very little chance your bank will approve a mortgage on a property with any outstanding issues such as you have described so move on.

Plumbthedepths · 15-02-2021 8:52am

The best advice you have received OP is to walk away. Having dealt with a planning matter and all the stress it brings 'walk away ' when you are in a position to do so is great advice.

Hannibal_Smith · 15-02-2021 9:16am

They've given you a copy of the Planning Application but not the Planning Permission itself? Has your solicitor carried out a planning search? That would be the first step.

If it is the fact that they haven't given you a copy of the Planning Permission don't walk away - RUN. They need to provide you with the actual Permission and all Certs of Compliance associated with it.

A Certificate of Identity for the septic tank is requirement. Absolutely push back on that.

If they refuse - walk and leave them to it. The next buyer will look for exactly the same things.

dubrov · 15-02-2021 9:29am

The chan chan man wrote:

I agree with all the advice given..... however.... I can completely understand the vendors point of view. Rightly or wrongly - Why should he? Someone else will buy it anyway.

Someone else will likely but it reduces the pool of prospective buyers and will ultimately affect the sale price.

Corruptedmorals · 17-02-2021 6:51pm

The major problem you will face is the bank. Your solicitor cannot guarantee 'good title' to your mortgage lenders..the boundary alone will account for that. Your solicitor needs to apply for qualification of title and the bank's legal team will say yes or no. We got this approved but in our case it was an issue that was in the process of being fixed and there wasn't anything outstanding or unfixable. I would walk away, there are too many issues with the house.

ec_pc · 17-02-2021 9:14pm

In my experience at lot of this comes down to how much the buyer wants the house, will the variances with planning of the house really be such an issue considering the age of the house and also if they plan to use it as a long term home. They obviously based the decision to purchase based on the layout of the house as it is rather than plans.

I have sold a bungalow in the past which was built exactly to the floor plan but we built the roof at a slightly steeper angle so we could use the upstairs space. We ended up with a huge room about 10 meters by 6. Ultimately it was not compliant with the original planning plus we also built a large garage about 3 times the size of what planning was for.

However, we told the estate agent all of this up front and said we would not entertain any bids from someone who would have concerns over these items. 5 bidders, 2 we discounted on the above grounds and 3 remained. Out the far side of a bidding war and we accepted the highest bid. Then the questions started about floor plans etc so we played hard ball and said if they wanted the plans to go to Wicklow Co co which they did. We also told them via estate agent that we would reject the bid if they started asking questions about the house etc.

They wanted it as their long term home, no more questions and they bought the house. So it all depends on what the buyer wants. Granted we didn't have the boundary issue etc.

listermint · 17-02-2021 9:23pm

So your advise is to make it a difficult for a buyer as possible and have them run around looking for plans you paid for an submitted.

Seems like solid advice.

I'm sure you were an absolute dream to deal with.

Aces.

muffler · 18-02-2021 1:24am

ec_pc wrote: »

I have sold a bungalow in the past ........ Ultimately it was not compliant with the original planning plus we also built a large garage about 3 times the size of what planning was for......

...... we played hard ball and said if they wanted the plans to go to Wicklow Co co which they did. We also told them via estate agent that we would reject the bid if they started asking questions about the house etc.

ec_pc wrote: »

They wanted it as their long term home, no more questions and they bought the house. So it all depends on what the buyer wants.

Thats a bit of a contradiction. That was what you, the seller, wanted.

ec_pc · 18-02-2021 12:22pm

listermint wrote: »

So your advise is to make it a difficult for a buyer as possible and have them run around looking for plans you paid for an submitted.

Seems like solid advice.

I'm sure you were an absolute dream to deal with.

Aces.

Without wanting to get into a war of words, I just wanted to reply.

I guess my comments were a bit divisive, we were not difficult to deal with in fairness but we were honest from the outset with the potential buyers so there was no cloak and dagger type of carry on. The buyer actually said he appreciated the openness so therefore I conclude he was happy.

With respect to the plans, we didn't have them so the only option was to go to Wicklow Co Co to get them. They were not available online as house was from 2000.

ec_pc · 18-02-2021 12:23pm

muffler wrote: »

Thats a bit of a contradiction. That was what you, the seller, wanted.

I tend to disagree, nobody forced anyone to do a deal. Buyer wanted the house, was happy with the outcome.

I am only offering my viewpoint, but do see your view too!

RandRuns · 18-02-2021 12:33pm

muffler wrote: »

No, you would be exempt from enforcement proceedings only but you would not have planning permission. Try making another application or try selling the house and your solicitor will deny all knowledge of having told you that.

mickdw wrote: »

They cant make you knock it but they can and will refuse all further development on site until regularised. If its a structure that they dont wish to grant permission for, you are at a stale mate and you may end up knocking the shed yourself.

The above two posts sum it up in my opinion.

I do A LOT of site and building pre-purchase due diligence. I see situations like this all the time - I always, without exception, walk away. The absolute best case scenario here is that you are going to have paperwork headaches - especially around the boundary issue, and the PP issue if you ever want to do anything further on the site (or sell on).
The worst case scenario is that the issues you've already uncovered are not all the issues involved. It is my experience that;
Unresolved Issues + Awkward Vendor = Worse Issues You're Not Seeing.

Let someone else roll the dice, the odds are too high.

Vendor refusing to apply for retention

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