Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all! We have been experiencing an issue on site where threads have been missing the latest postings. The platform host Vanilla are working on this issue. A workaround that has been used by some is to navigate back from 1 to 10+ pages to re-sync the thread and this will then show the latest posts. Thanks, Mike.
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

How common is it for people to never find an other half or have kids?

1235712

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,862 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    I have lived a very hedonistic self-indulgent life before my own kids were born. Sure in your 20's and 30's kids are the last thing on your mind, but all the travelling, sex, drink, drugs, the partying wears thin after a while. You begin to realise is that it? Is this me for the next 50 years until I **** myself in a old folks home and die?

    I suppose one becomes ready to move on from the self-indulgent lifestyle and start something else, something harder but ultimately much much more rewarding than a night on the beer, or a line of coke.

    Seeing your own child for the first time after it being born is something indescribable, that cannot be put into words. You realise that you are part of something much bigger than yourself and that in an age of the self, having kids is one of the last vestiges of true sacrifice.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,580 ✭✭✭JDD


    I suppose one becomes ready to move on from the self-indulgent lifestyle and start something else, something harder but ultimately much much more rewarding than a night on the beer, or a line of coke.

    While I'm delighted that you are happy with your choices, I think "self-indulgent" is an unfortunate choice of words.

    I have three kids. Always wanted them, so if for whatever reason it didn't happen for me I probably would feel that there was something missing from my life.

    I didn't get the "bam!" moment at birth with any of them. Maybe because I had C-sections and the usual hormones weren't flooding around, maybe it wouldn't have happened even with no C-section. In fact, I only got a "bam!" moment with my first, a few weeks in. The other two the love was a slow burner, over the days and weeks after birth. At no point have I ever felt "ahhh, now life makes sense, now I am fulfilled".

    I'm happy with my choices, but there's certainly a part of me that envies the child-fee life of some of my friends. How would I feel now, if I hadn't been 100% convinced I wanted children before I had them? Maybe I would feel the same way - the same slow burner love would have happened, and I'd envy the child-free life but not so much that I'd want things differently.

    But I f*cking doubt it.

    I'd probably regret having children. And I'd never be able to say it publically so I'd internalize it at take it out in small ways so that my kids would grow up to be baggage filled little ****s. So what I'm trying to say is, if someone isn't 100% convinced they want kids, absolutely don't do it. There's nothing self indulgent about concentrating on your own life. We're all born, we all die, and in between we try to make the world a better place when we leave it than when we entered it.

    Having children doesn't necessarily mean that you'll end up a net contributor to the world, and it is certainly less likely if you weren't convinced you wanted them in the first. So I say don't listen the "I was a self-obsessed **** who never wanted children before my surprise baby came along. I had some sort of religious epiphany on the day of the birth, and I now feel so connected to my purpose in life, that I cannot understand how I even existed before".

    Because if that happened, well, fantastic for you. But for every one of you, logic dictates that there are five others who realise they just set fire to their lives and there's no way back.

    And incidentally, I'm retiring to Florida when I'm 70, so I'm absolutely not counting on my kids to take care of me. I hope they end up travelling the world without even thinking about having to be close to take care of their parents.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,170 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Indeed JDD, for some I've known having a kid was pretty self indulgent of them. Never mind that unless you were the captain of the Exxon Valdez the biggest impact you will have on the planet's environment is having a child.

    But that's by the by, it's about the strongest biological imperatives there are. At a very basic level your "job" is to grow up make little copies of yourself, die, hopefully getting the little copies to the point where they can make further little copies of themselves and so on. Your body is primed for it at a very deep level. That feeling of "you are part of something much bigger than yourself"? Mostly oxytocin and other neurotransmitters flooding the oul brainbox. A natural high as it were. And fair enough. :D

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,862 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    JDD wrote: »
    While I'm delighted that you are happy with your choices, I think "self-indulgent" is an unfortunate choice of words.

    Perhaps, but for many, it rings true. Sure, there are people out there who devote their lives to a cause or a vocation bigger than themselves but they are rare.
    Many childless couples I know just want to live a good life, with cruises, nights out, and pay for expensive experiences. Whatever floats their boat but is that all is there to life? A front row seat to see the Rolling Stones? I doubt it.

    I know many older people who didn't have kids and have rich fulfilled lives.
    I also know more older people who didn't have kids, who end up really lonely and depressed.

    It's a mixed bag really. I do not know one single person who hates or regrets having kids, even though it may have been a slow burn for them.

    Again, whatever floats one's boat, but people sure get defensive about the issue, to the point they come across as insecure.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,862 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Wibbs wrote: »
    And fair enough. :D

    What's the saying?

    "Knowing the price of everything but the value of nothing."

    If one boils down life to mere atoms and chemical reactions in the brain, it says more about that person's own nihilistic outlook than anyone else.

    Again, as I said, people sure get insecure about this topic.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    JDD wrote: »
    While I'm delighted that you are happy with your choices, I think "self-indulgent" is an unfortunate choice of words.

    Oh I'd say it was a pretty deliberately inflammatory choice of words.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,731 ✭✭✭jam_mac_jam


    markodaly wrote: »
    Perhaps, but for many, it rings true. Sure, there are people out there who devote their lives to a cause or a vocation bigger than themselves but they are rare.
    Many childless couples I know just want to live a good life, with cruises, nights out, and pay for expensive experiences. Whatever floats their boat but is that all is there to life? A front row seat to see the Rolling Stones? I doubt it.

    I know many older people who didn't have kids and have rich fulfilled lives.
    I also know more older people who didn't have kids, who end up really lonely and depressed.

    It's a mixed bag really. I do not know one single person who hates or regrets having kids, even though it may have been a slow burn for them.

    Again, whatever floats one's boat, but people sure get defensive about the issue, to the point they come across as insecure.

    Nobody is going to admit they regret having kids, even if you did, you would be treated as a monster.

    There are loads of people miserable because of their kids or having to stay in awful relationships, the idea that only childless people have regret about their choices is very naive.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,170 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    markodaly wrote: »
    It's a mixed bag really. I do not know one single person who hates or regrets having kids, even though it may have been a slow burn for them.
    I have met a few M. Not hate, too strong a word, but some with resentment alright. More women in that group, probably because they had to give up more. While others all men, because it's easier for them to do so, who left early on. A few have zero contact with their kids and apparently don't care, others are part time parents, play with the kid for a few hours and hand them back type of thing. Others who are workaholics and barely see their kids at the weekend(with a couple who wouldn't be pushed if that contact was even shorter) While sometimes it's the women who leave, it's rarer, but there are enough kids out there who've grown up without fathers because they sodded off soon after they popped out.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,170 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    markodaly wrote: »
    What's the saying?

    "Knowing the price of everything but the value of nothing."

    If one boils down life to mere atoms and chemical reactions in the brain, it says more about that person's own nihilistic outlook than anyone else.

    Again, as I said, people sure get insecure about this topic.
    Meh, I'm not particularly nihilistic and I can hold two ideas in my head at once. I mean if I stub my toe it bloody hurts no matter how much I may think that it's just a cascade of chemicals going through my brain. So when I am in love I feel it very deeply and it doesn't exactly concern me that most of the chemicals involved are also to be found in chocolate. :D

    For me I've never been particularly paternal, at all actually. I'd make for at best a lacklustre dad in general. I'm grand as the fun uncle who shows up for a while, but otherwise nope. I would have the same kinda drive to "reproduce myself" but if I ever did so knowing myself as I do, that for me would be selfish. There are enough meh parents out there, I don't need to add to their number. There are also fantastic mums and dads out there, some among my friends and more power to them.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,915 ✭✭✭Greyfox


    markodaly wrote: »
    You begin to realise is that it? Is this me for the next 50 years until I **** myself in a old folks home and die?...
    I suppose one becomes ready to move on from the self-indulgent lifestyle and start something else, something harder but ultimately much much more rewarding than a night on the beer, or a line of coke.

    Not everyone thinks that way and I find it strange that some people think this way. Truth is 80 years is not long enough on this planet to experience all the great things this world has to offer. There's an endless amount of places to travel to, people to meet and things to share with a partner. There's loads and loads of other hobbies to try, there an endless amount of books to read and things to learn, documentarys/films/tv shows to watch, games to play, songs to listen to. Raising a kid is just ONE of the many many interesting things you can do with your life, if your worried about running out of things to do with your time then your not putting enough thought into all the other things you could do with your free time. Time is the most precious thing in the world and having kids is by far and away the biggest time sink that exists. Fair play to you if you want kids but for some people not having kids might be the smartest decision they ever make.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,281 ✭✭✭✭Potential-Monke


    Nobody is going to admit they regret having kids, even if you did, you would be treated as a monster.

    There are loads of people miserable because of their kids or having to stay in awful relationships, the idea that only childless people have regret about their choices is very naive.

    This. Exactly this. The ones who have admitted to me they regret having kids would never even contemplate saying that to another parent. As my friend put it, there's an expectation out there from other parents that your life is wonderful and full of joy, even after all the negatives that come with it. He said he did admit it once to another parent, who then went on to give him the big speech that children are everything (similar to the people commenting on this that this is what we are all alive for, our 'purpose').

    As Wibbs said, there's also a lot of resentment which parents don't admit. My mate loves when I attend gatherings, as I'm the one who straight out says I don't like them, and that's when parents start to get 'truthful' about their experiences. Most will still be happy with having kids, but start to see why some people may have regrets/resentment. You'd be surprised how many people at least think this way but haven't completely got to the believing it stage.

    Edit: I should add, it's ok to feel resentment and regret about having kids, but it's your actions after this which count.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,862 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Nobody is going to admit they regret having kids, even if you did, you would be treated as a monster.

    There are loads of people miserable because of their kids or having to stay in awful relationships, the idea that only childless people have regret about their choices is very naive.

    My answer to that would be that its a reflection of the people themselves, not the fact they had kids.
    Sure, people with kids can have issues. Having children is not a silver bullet to all life's ills but the people I know with kids who are miserable have much more deep-seated issues themselves which they cover up with substance abuse, normally drink.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,862 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Wibbs wrote: »
    I have met a few M. Not hate, too strong a word, but some with resentment alright. More women in that group, probably because they had to give up more. While others all men, because it's easier for them to do so, who left early on. A few have zero contact with their kids and apparently don't care, others are part time parents, play with the kid for a few hours and hand them back type of thing. Others who are workaholics and barely see their kids at the weekend(with a couple who wouldn't be pushed if that contact was even shorter) While sometimes it's the women who leave, it's rarer, but there are enough kids out there who've grown up without fathers because they sodded off soon after they popped out.

    Men who leave relationships early on are an embarrassment in my opinion and I say this as someone whose father left his family up **** creek. I wont go into details

    These are the exact same men who would have gotten someone up the duff in 1930s Ireland and ****ed off to England on the boat while the woman was incarcerated for 'her sins' instead of actually being responsible for his actions.
    Whatever about the rest of the topic, these 'men' should be rightly called out.
    There are plenty of assholes out there in the world.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,862 ✭✭✭✭markodaly



    Edit: I should add, it's ok to feel resentment and regret about having kids, but it's your actions after this which count.

    Put it this way, is it OK to say the same once you got married and stayed in that relationship. I wonder what your partner would have to say if you admitted that you resented them for getting married. Im sure they would be fine with it.

    I suppose the above quote is a nice encapsulation of modern life. We want is 'all' but the truth is right under our noses. We cannot have it all, no matter how many Instagram stories or commercials you watch.

    Again, whatever floats one's boat but ill repeat, people sure get defensive about this question.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,558 ✭✭✭✭Fourier


    markodaly wrote: »
    If one boils down life to mere atoms and chemical reactions in the brain, it says more about that person's own nihilistic outlook than anyone else.
    It's not really that nihilistic. The brain uses different ratios of chemicals when performing different types of thoughts. Just like how the muscles use different ratios of chemicals when performing different activities.

    Yeah somebody might go overboard and think it means "love" etc don't exist. Which is about as sensible as saying that "running" doesn't exist because your body burns more glucagon to perform it.

    However if you're being sensible it's just a statement about how the brain works. Even being coldly rational involves a flood of different chemicals, so it's not like it picks out anything in particular.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    I dunno Mark, the type of parents who drone on about how transformative parenthood is and how empty and self indulgent their life was before and how no good person ever regretted having kids have a smack of the pre-emptively defensive about them to my eyes, very much comes across as an attempt as self-persuasion rather than trying to convince others. As plenty parents and non-parents are saying here, people fully comfortable with their choices tend not to have to put those of others down.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,580 ✭✭✭JDD


    markodaly wrote: »
    My answer to that would be that its a reflection of the people themselves, not the fact they had kids.
    Sure, people with kids can have issues. Having children is not a silver bullet to all life's ills but the people I know with kids who are miserable have much more deep-seated issues themselves which they cover up with substance abuse, normally drink.

    I'm not sure that's right.

    I have a friend, two young teenage kids, who was insecure about her looks when younger and I guess hankered after the "normal life" of a husband, family, house, car etc. She married earlyish to a guy that she wasn't suited to and had twins about a year. Now, as an older, wiser and more confident person she is in the process of extracting herself from her marriage. She has said to me on more than one occasion that while she loves her children, and obviously wouldn't wish them away now, if she had her life over again she'd prefer to choose not to have them - I guess she missed out on a lot in life up to now and there's a sense of her own mortality and how much she hasn't experienced.

    She's not a bad person. She's a good mother but is afraid that the fact that regrets having children shows though in her interactions with them. She said that she's been pretending for so long that she's happy with her lot that it's second nature to her and they probably don't notice anything.

    Its sad really. So many go down the marriage + kids + house route because they are insecure and its what society deems as the norm, or even preferable, when it wasn't the right route for them at all. And this rhetoric of "I've never met someone who regrets having children" is very unhelpful, because there is clearly - outside of outright abusive parents - some good people who are fairly rubbish parents. It's terrible advice for people to go off and have a child because they believe it will deliver some meaning or purpose in their life, or fill some kind of hole, when it absolutely won't.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,862 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    I dunno Mark, the type of parents who drone on about how transformative parenthood is and how empty and self indulgent their life was before and how no good person ever regretted having kids have a smack of the pre-emptively defensive about them to my eyes, very much comes across as an attempt as self-persuasion rather than trying to convince others. As plenty parents and non-parents are saying here, people fully comfortable with their choices tend not to have to put those of others down.

    I am not trying to put down anyone else tbh. I repeatedly stated people are free to live whatever lives they want, that does not mean I cannot have an opinion about it as well in fairness.

    For daring to question peoples life choices, people circle the wagon's and start shouting in unison that they are 'TRUELY HAPPY!!!, REALLY!!' OK, fine.

    As I will repeat, people are just insecure about their life choices that they have to defend them so vigorously.


  • Posts: 13,712 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I dunno Mark, the type of parents who drone on about how transformative parenthood is and how empty and self indulgent their life was before and how no good person ever regretted having kids have a smack of the pre-emptively defensive about them to my eyes, very much comes across as an attempt as self-persuasion rather than trying to convince others. As plenty parents and non-parents are saying here, people fully comfortable with their choices tend not to have to put those of others down.
    I don't imagine I'm the only parent here whose child (or in some cases, children) was accidental. People talk about accidental babies as if they are some kind of epiphany, when actually, there's a big shock factor, and after the initial euphoria, there's a certain amount of mourning involved for being hurried out of a lifestyle that you were quite enjoying, thanks very much.

    At least, there would be mourning if we weren't walking around, semi-conscious, knee-deep in bodily fluids and Peppa Pig paraphernalia.

    Having kids is great, but it's bloody hard work. While I certainly don't think many people regret their kids, we certainly do sit around thinking "what if?" and imagining a life without children in the way that some people probably idealize a life with children.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    markodaly wrote: »
    I am not trying to put down anyone else tbh. I repeatedly stated people are free to live whatever lives they want, that does not mean I cannot have an opinion about it as well in fairness.

    For daring to question peoples life choices, people circle the wagon's and start shouting in unison that they are 'TRUELY HAPPY!!!, REALLY!!' OK, fine.

    As I will repeat, people are just insecure about their life choices that they have to defend them so vigorously.

    Maybe it was just your phrasing in your first post, it seemed like you were making general value judgements on parenthood and the choice not to have children rather than just talking about your own personal experience of living a self indulgent, seemingly rather intoxicated life and then understandably getting sick of that, and finding a transformative meaningfulness in parenthood. Having an opinion on someone's choices isn't mutually exclusive from putting those choices down, you know.

    I think we've all read and understood your point that you think defensiveness from childfree people indicates insecurity in their choice, you've ended every post with it and it's not that complex a thing to grasp.

    My point is this "my life is harder and more meaningful than it was before and than yours is now, an act of selflessness in the age of the self, I'm fulfilling man's purpose on earth" doesn't come across the most secure either. And it's not even defensive, it's just out of nowhere. And it's not a parent thing, most of them posting here seem to be pretty chill.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,862 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    JDD wrote: »
    I'm not sure that's right.

    I have a friend, two young teenage kids, who was insecure about her looks when younger and I guess hankered after the "normal life" of a husband, family, house, car etc. She married earlyish to a guy that she wasn't suited to and had twins about a year. Now, as an older, wiser and more confident person she is in the process of extracting herself from her marriage. She has said to me on more than one occasion that while she loves her children, and obviously wouldn't wish them away now, if she had her life over again she'd prefer to choose not to have them - I guess she missed out on a lot in life up to now and there's a sense of her own mortality and how much she hasn't experienced.

    It kinda proves my point in a way.
    She loves her kids and gets self-worth from them.
    Its sad really. So many go down the marriage + kids + house route because they are insecure and its what society deems as the norm, or even preferable, when it wasn't the right route for them at all. And this rhetoric of "I've never met someone who regrets having children" is very unhelpful, because there is clearly - outside of outright abusive parents - some good people who are fairly rubbish parents. It's terrible advice for people to go off and have a child because they believe it will deliver some meaning or purpose in their life, or fill some kind of hole, when it absolutely won't.

    Abusive parents are one thing but again, people like that have issues themselves, to begin with. People are conflating the two issues.

    Society deems it the norm because it is the norm. We are programmed biologically that way and we have about 4 million years of evolution to back it up. Science proves that childless people die younger for example.
    Our entire human society is based around the family. People cannot see the wood from the trees on this issue and conflate various and different issues.

    Maybe people just get uneasy that after all their yoga, pilates and drinking soya lates they are merely biological beings programmed to act a certain way. It makes them uneasy that they are not the free-thinking, free-spirited individual they think they are under the veneer.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,558 ✭✭✭✭Fourier


    Peppa Pig paraphernalia.
    You blaspheme against the great toddler god?

    FSM09x.jpg


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,555 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    markodaly wrote: »
    I am not trying to put down anyone else tbh.


    See, you say this, and then refer to people who choose not to have children in the most patronizing way possible.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,731 ✭✭✭jam_mac_jam


    markodaly wrote: »
    I am not trying to put down anyone else tbh. I repeatedly stated people are free to live whatever lives they want, that does not mean I cannot have an opinion about it as well in fairness.

    For daring to question peoples life choices, people circle the wagon's and start shouting in unison that they are 'TRUELY HAPPY!!!, REALLY!!' OK, fine.

    As I will repeat, people are just insecure about their life choices that they have to defend them so vigorously.


    Why do they have to defend their choices at all?


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    markodaly wrote: »
    I am not trying to put down anyone else tbh. I repeatedly stated people are free to live whatever lives they want, that does not mean I cannot have an opinion about it as well in fairness.

    For daring to question peoples life choices, people circle the wagon's and start shouting in unison that they are 'TRUELY HAPPY!!!, REALLY!!' OK, fine.

    As I will repeat, people are just insecure about their life choices that they have to defend them so vigorously.

    your projected defensiveness from people who are telling you that they are grand thanks clashes badly with your continued insistence that they cannot be and that you have a right to your opinion on it mannnnn


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,742 ✭✭✭Wanderer2010


    markodaly wrote: »
    It kinda proves my point in a way.
    She loves her kids and gets self-worth from them.



    Abusive parents are one thing but again, people like that have issues themselves, to begin with. People are conflating the two issues.

    Society deems it the norm because it is the norm. We are programmed biologically that way and we have about 4 million years of evolution to back it up. Science proves that childless people die younger for example.
    Our entire human society is based around the family. People cannot see the wood from the trees on this issue and conflate various and different issues.

    Maybe people just get uneasy that after all their yoga, pilates and drinking soya lates they are merely biological beings programmed to act a certain way. It makes them uneasy that they are not the free-thinking, free-spirited individual they think they are under the veneer.

    Im not sure if there is intent or not but your post reads like a dripping attack in the most patronising manner possible on people who choose not to have kids. Can you get your head around the fact that some people don't want kids or a family, and are happy with a core group of friends, or is that concept totally bizarre to you? Im just genuinely curious.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You probably only realise in hindsight..


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 809 ✭✭✭Blaizes


    To be fair not having kids is probably a fairly new idea to Ireland. We haven’t actually had contraception that long ( 30 or 40 years maybe) so we were a country of big families. Now times have changed though and people have more choice.

    We’ve probably gone in reverse mode though as having children now is so expensive that people just cant afford it even if they want to have children. And that isn’t right either.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,477 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    Blaizes wrote: »
    To be fair not having kids is probably a fairly new idea to Ireland. We haven’t actually had contraception that long ( 30 or 40 years maybe) so we were a country of big families. Now times have changed though and people have more choice.

    We’ve probably gone in reverse mode though as having children now is so expensive that people just cant afford it even if they want to have children. And that isn’t right either.

    People could never afford them they just had them anyway and kids shared rooms and didn’t go on holidays and ate simple food etc.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 809 ✭✭✭Blaizes


    Blaizes wrote: »
    To be fair not having kids is probably a fairly new idea to Ireland. We haven’t actually had contraception that long ( 30 or 40 years maybe) so we were a country of big families. Now times have changed though and people have more choice.

    We’ve probably gone in reverse mode though as having children now is so expensive that people just cant afford it even if they want to have children. And that isn’t right either.

    People could never afford them they just had them anyway and kids shared rooms and didn’t go on holidays and ate simple food etc.

    All true, couldn’t disagree with one word you’ve said, but something has changed from then till now.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,477 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    Blaizes wrote: »
    All true, couldn’t disagree with one word you’ve said, but something has changed from then till now.

    Expectations


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Expectations

    you say this like theyre a bad thing

    but i think theyre great


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,576 ✭✭✭Paddy Cow


    Blaizes wrote: »
    All true, couldn’t disagree with one word you’ve said, but something has changed from then till now.
    1 Access to contraception and the ability for couples to actually plan how many (if any) children they want.
    2 Education and employment opportunities for women. My mother was married at 19 and had 8 children. She would've been happier with 2 kids and a career but that wasn't an option for her and there were many more like her.

    I'll take modern life with all it's choice and convenience over some nostalgic past where no one had anything but everyone was happy.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,958 ✭✭✭Mr_Spaceman


    Tony EH wrote: »
    I know a middle aged woman, she's heading to late 40's now. She's always bemoaning the fact that she's single and "can't meet a nice fella".

    I stupidly asked her what she was looking for in a man and she came back with a memorised list that took 10 minutes to recite. It was all he has to do this, has to be that, must have this, must look like that...

    With that kind of pre-requisite set list, it's no wonder she's alone.

    I see this ALL the time with online dating profiles.

    It's essentially 'No this' and 'No that', with hardly anything lighthearted and positive to showcase themselves. I wouldn't even think about replying to someone with such a pie-in-the-sky shopping list of demanding guff.

    Forget the kids, I suspect this woman might have a long wait for Mr Peter Perfect to unwrap.

    I also think it's true (and something which I suspect doesn't get flagged up enough in these debates) that many people - male and female - are keen to have children but never actually get to meet anyone special. That in itself is likely to be quietly crushing and hard to accept.

    For single people, it's difficult enough to meet a potential partner before even getting to the point where you both want the same thing (ie, children) at approximately the same time.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 508 ✭✭✭d8491prj5boyvg


    Expectations

    Preferences I suppose? Better standard of living. I'd say the biggest choice is fewer kids so more money per kid. Seems reasonable, don't want to say to kids no college, can't afford it, for example.

    No kids vs kids for better standard of living is a tougher call ultimately as you have to predict that your preferences stay the same for the rest of your life. Not tough if strong opinions either way but I don't envy anyone on the fence there


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 508 ✭✭✭d8491prj5boyvg


    markodaly wrote: »
    It kinda proves my point in a way.
    She loves her kids and gets self-worth from them.



    Abusive parents are one thing but again, people like that have issues themselves, to begin with. People are conflating the two issues.

    Society deems it the norm because it is the norm. We are programmed biologically that way and we have about 4 million years of evolution to back it up. Science proves that childless people die younger for example.
    Our entire human society is based around the family. People cannot see the wood from the trees on this issue and conflate various and different issues.

    Maybe people just get uneasy that after all their yoga, pilates and drinking soya lates they are merely biological beings programmed to act a certain way. It makes them uneasy that they are not the free-thinking, free-spirited individual they think they are under the veneer.

    While I wouldn't disagree entirely I think you are misrepresenting the situation a little. We are programmed to procreate to continue the species. That does not mean we all have a strong desire. We have a predisposition and a greater likelihood to be in favor but this will be stronger in some than others. For many this could be just manifest in a desire for sex. For others this could come through weaker or not at all. The point is what you say is the average and there is variation around that. The debate is around those who are at the tail end of the distribution, those with a weak or no desire for which there are many. And when you compare this to what you give up nowadays for kids, it's not the no brainer fight against nature that you suggest. It's a fight against a weak or non existent drive for kids.

    Childless people die younger because they take more risks and/or are less likely to look after themselves for the sake of their children. On average! It's the same for men, less likely to see a doctor if single. Again, average. To imply that children magically make all parents live longer is wrong


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 945 ✭✭✭Always Tired


    What do yoga and soy lattes have to do with it?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 35 nuyil simp


    What do yoga and soy lattes have to do with it?

    i don't know, but you'd see people like that saying they wouldn't have kids, because the world is getting too overpopulated as it is...

    I mean, in a world of 7.7 Billion people, growing by 100 every 20 seconds, whats two or three more? in a country where the population is less than what it was 150 years ago? thats not going to make much difference.

    If you want to have an impact on population growth, get more young girls in india and africa into school, into staying in school... two or three less kids in ireland is going to make **** all difference


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 508 ✭✭✭d8491prj5boyvg


    Blaizes wrote: »
    While I would agree with some of your points, I wouldn’t agree that having children is a sacrifice that will pay off later in life in that they will take care of you when you are old. I hope nobody would have children for that reason and certainly in Ireland now when people have kids I think it’s the furthest thing from their mind. But probably was a thing in Ireland in the past like giving the farm to the eldest son who would then look after the parents. In other cultures too female infanticide, as boy babies were seen as superior, being stronger and could provide Labour to support the family.

    The family unit was stronger as there were fewer resources. Three generations, if alive, living together or close by. Grandparents helping rear children, middle generation providing most of the food on the table for all, youngest generation helping out when old enough. Strong social bonds. Now it's a transaction with a creche. Grandparents more likely to be independent and living fulfilling lives but at the cost of that stronger bond. I'd still take the modern outcome but don't forget these costs to what we have.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,417 ✭✭✭ToddyDoody


    How many of The Simpsons characters are unmarried? Plenty.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 332 ✭✭Tikki Wang Wang


    Plenty of people lie on the death beds wishing they had travelled more.

    There are fewer greater pleasures in life than slamming a stiff hot penile into a moist warm vageen


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,542 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Fourier wrote: »
    You blaspheme against the great toddler god?

    FSM09x.jpg

    I made the mistake of calling the show 'Peppermint Pig' to one of my nieces. I swear, a bigger dressing down I have never received in my life.

    I managed to salvage the situation with some judicious use of ice cream.

    Phew.


  • Posts: 2,078 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Tony EH wrote: »
    I made the mistake of calling the show 'Peppermint Pig' to one of my nieces. I swear, a bigger dressing down I have never received in my life.

    I managed to salvage the situation with some judicious use of ice cream.

    Phew.

    Who dressed you down? The niece? If so she's a humourless little wagon. Most kids I know would be rolling round the floor laughing at the big dumb adult.


  • Posts: 2,078 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    People could never afford them they just had them anyway and kids shared rooms and didn’t go on holidays and ate simple food etc.

    And if you wanted something as a teenager you got a job and earned the money for it yourself.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,203 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    markodaly wrote: »
    I have lived a very hedonistic self-indulgent life before my own kids were born. Sure in your 20's and 30's kids are the last thing on your mind, but all the travelling, sex, drink, drugs, the partying wears thin after a while. You begin to realise is that it? Is this me for the next 50 years until I **** myself in a old folks home and die?

    I suppose one becomes ready to move on from the self-indulgent lifestyle and start something else, something harder but ultimately much much more rewarding than a night on the beer, or a line of coke.

    Seeing your own child for the first time after it being born is something indescribable, that cannot be put into words. You realise that you are part of something much bigger than yourself and that in an age of the self, having kids is one of the last vestiges of true sacrifice.


    Having children was something that was at the forefront of my mind from a very early age, not something that just happened as though I’d an epiphany in my 30’s, and at the same time I enjoyed plenty of self-indulgence, still do, because having children for me was only one aspect of what I wanted from life. It wasn’t this higher purpose or realising I’m part of something much bigger than myself (I realised that long before I hit my 20’s even, in school, when I learned about history, geography and science).

    That is perhaps why seeing my own child for the first time after it being born is something that contrary to your opinion, is easily described, for me at least. They looked like the offspring of a cross between a character from the Simpsons, and a Klingon - with a deeply furrowed brow and yellow skin. When the nurse in the delivery room asked me did I want to hold him, and presented me with a baby who was still covered in blood, I thought she must be kidding, I’m wearing a white shirt!

    Put simply, there was no big epiphany, no realising I’d just contributed to climate change, no thinking that I had now made some “true sacrifice” or any of the rest of what I would consider to be self-indulgent navel-gazing nonsense on your part. My thinking on having children has always been based upon more practical concerns and pragmatism than some philosophical ideas about my own significance in the universe and evolution and all the rest of it.

    If the pinnacle of your life’s achievements is something that humans have been doing for millions of years already, I would question how you evaluate the idea of life achievement and fulfilment.

    markodaly wrote: »
    Perhaps, but for many, it rings true. Sure, there are people out there who devote their lives to a cause or a vocation bigger than themselves but they are rare.
    Many childless couples I know just want to live a good life, with cruises, nights out, and pay for expensive experiences. Whatever floats their boat but is that all is there to life? A front row seat to see the Rolling Stones? I doubt it.

    I know many older people who didn't have kids and have rich fulfilled lives.
    I also know more older people who didn't have kids, who end up really lonely and depressed.

    It's a mixed bag really. I do not know one single person who hates or regrets having kids, even though it may have been a slow burn for them.

    Again, whatever floats one's boat, but people sure get defensive about the issue, to the point they come across as insecure.


    I would question how secure you are in your own life choices that you don’t appear to be able to appreciate the concept that other people evaluate the sum of their life’s achievements and what they want from their lives differently from how you evaluate the sum of one’s life achievements and fulfilment. It’s not being defensive to point out that they don’t evaluate their lives in the same way you think they should evaluate their lives. Put simply - they just don’t share your perspective, they have their own perspective on what they consider an achievement of what fulfils them.

    I still have plenty of nights out, nice things, and I place more value in working to be able to provide those things for my child too. I would have liked to have more children, but it just didn’t happen, and that’s ok. It’s not like I ever considered the sole purpose of my existence was to reproduce anyway, so it’s not something I dwell on. I have plenty more in my life to fulfil me than just thinking having reproduced means “my work here is done”. There’s far more to life than just having children or raising children. That’s something humans have been doing for millions of years already. I would evaluate achievement as something that hasn’t been done by humans before, or something that’s actually difficult to do, that requires decades of dedication, education and discipline to be regarded as an elite in their chosen field of sports, or an authority in their chosen field of education or employment.

    Whether they have children or not isn’t something I consider worthy of evaluation in terms of what a person has actually achieved in their lifetime or their contribution to society. If ever proof positive was needed that having and raising children is something any idiot can do, well... you’re welcome :pac:


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,482 ✭✭✭Gimme A Pound


    Who dressed you down? The niece? If so she's a humourless little wagon.
    She's a small child whose social skills haven't fully developed yet. And it's hardly an *actual* dressing down. :confused:

    Must you really refer to another poster's niece in that manner? A wagon?!

    Also it's totally standard for small children to correct adults over things that are a big deal to them - my nieces gave out to me for saying unicorns aren't real... and THAT'S what's funny. Only a humourless adult would take it so seriously. And you haven't a clue how other children you know would react.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Haha..I had my niece showing me videos on youtube to prove unicorns were real..


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,477 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    Humourless little wagon made me laugh though


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    Humourless little wagon made me laugh though

    Well she can't have been that humourless then, can she?

    :pac:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,542 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    She's a small child whose social skills haven't fully developed yet. And it's hardly an *actual* dressing down. :confused:

    Must you really refer to another poster's niece in that manner? A wagon?!

    Also it's totally standard for small children to correct adults over things that are a big deal to them - my nieces gave out to me for saying unicorns aren't real... and THAT'S what's funny. Only a humourless adult would take it so seriously. And you haven't a clue how other children you know would react.

    She's 3 and Peppermint Peppa Pig is her thing.

    Of course it wasn't a dressing down like you'd get from a Sergeant Major or anything.

    But it was close.

    I'm still recovering.

    #prayfortony


  • Advertisement
Advertisement