€50 fine - not in possession of DART ticket

tzf60 · 31-03-2009 1:56pm #1

My daughter boarded the DART in Greystones seconds before the train departed, without having time to purchase a ticket. On arrival at Connolly, she approached the ticket desk to pay, but instead was presented with a €50 fine for not being in possession of a valid ticket. Any suggestions as to whether I should appeal? Strangely, the Greystones ticket hall closes around 10pm most evenings, so it's quite acceptable then to board a train without first purchasing a ticket. Has anyone had a similar experience? So much for her honesty!

faceman · 31-03-2009 1:59pm

This comes up alot on boards as a common query.

It would seem though from what I recall from memory that its very rare that an appeal would have any success unless there were circumstances at the hands of Irish Rail preventing your daughter from purchasing a ticket.

MiniD · 31-03-2009 2:04pm

Why would you appeal? Without sounding harsh, your daughter boarded a train without a ticket. People miss trains and trams every day because they had to queue for a ticket. That's just the way it is. You simply board the next train and make sure you're in time in future.

c4cat · 31-03-2009 2:10pm

MiniD wrote: »

Why would you appeal? Without sounding harsh, your daughter boarded a train without a ticket. People miss trains and trams every day because they had to queue for a ticket. That's just the way it is. You simply board the next train and make sure you're in time in future.

I agree, one has to turn up earlier to have time to buy a ticket and when the station is closed use the ticket vending machine...........that is the way it would be looked at in an appeal, plus is it worth the time and effort to appeal for €50?

tzf60 · 31-03-2009 2:13pm

I take your point. However, she wasn't trying to avoid payment. Seems strange that IE would allow passengers travel late at night without a ticket, yet take such a harsh line when it suits them. She was simply trying to make it to school on time. The service from Greystones is not so good, hence the hyped publicity about adding extra carriages in lat '09.

highdef · 31-03-2009 2:14pm

From what I can tell, she did not arrive on time. She was therefore early for the next train. You MUST purchase and possess a valid ticket for the journey so if the time taken to purchase it means that the train has left, then the following train is the one she is waiting for. If it was the last train of the day, she really should have made sure that she had lots of extra time to travel to the train station to avoid any possible delays. It's like getting on a bus and telling the driver that you can't find your wallet/purse but it's somewhere on your person and that you'll pay him/her at the far end when you find your money. It's VERY unlikely that the driver will let you on. If he's VERY patient, he'll wait. But chances are he'll say "Get the next bus".

Not exactly a good comparison but you get the idea. Basically, tough luck and lesson learned. At least that's one commuter who won't make the same mistake again.

highdef · 31-03-2009 2:19pm

tzf60 wrote: »

I take your point. However, she wasn't trying to avoid payment. Seems strange that IE would allow passengers travel late at night without a ticket, yet take such a harsh line when it suits them. She was simply trying to make it to school on time. The service from Greystones is not so good, hence the hyped publicity about adding extra carriages in lat '09.

IE do not allow passengers travel late at night, or at any time. They can't be everywhere all the time when trying to catch the fare dodgers. Best advice for your daughter is to get up 5 minutes earlier. That should solve any future reoccurrences of this matter. Lesson learned. Once the new style ticket barriers are installed at all stations, the "I'll pay at the far end" mentality should be more or less gone.

MiniD · 31-03-2009 2:20pm

tzf60 wrote: »

I take your point. However, she wasn't trying to avoid payment. Seems strange that IE would allow passengers travel late at night without a ticket, yet take such a harsh line when it suits them. She was simply trying to make it to school on time. The service from Greystones is not so good, hence the hyped publicity about adding extra carriages in lat '09.

The after 10pm argument really has nothing to do with your case. It would appear there is a different payment policy in place after 10pm. In your daughters case, there was an opportunity to pay her fare, but she chose to board the train without a ticket. That's the problem. If everybody was to pay their fare getting off the train it would result in chaos at Tara Street/Connolly.

tzf60 · 31-03-2009 2:23pm

Sorry, highdef, but DART users can travel at night without a ticket.
Thanks for all the responses, just the same.

highdef · 31-03-2009 2:25pm

Well I've often got the last dart from Connolly and I've always bought a ticket. Are you saying I can just jump the turnstile instead? Yes you can travel without purchasing a ticket but ONLY when there is no ticket machine AND the ticket office is closed. This is rather obvious. If the option to purchase a ticket is there, you MUST purchase it.

loyatemu · 31-03-2009 2:47pm

there are ticket machines in Greystones so you can purchase a ticket even after the ticket desk has closed.

Having said that, half the reason we keep seeing these complaints on here and on the P11 board is because IR make it too easy to get onto the platforms without a ticket (you can just walk through a gate at Greystones), and historically they have been quite lax on fare evasion. Even today they don't apply their rules consistently (in Broombridge there is no ticket office or machines so you can show up at any any of the city-centre stations, claim that you got on at Broombridge and just pay the fare).

They need to either secure all their platforms with proper turnstiles (you can hardly argue that you made an honest mistake if you had to climb over a turnstile to get onto the platform) or go to a Luas style system with teams of inspectors on the trains.

Yes you can travel without purchasing a ticket but ONLY when there is no ticket machine AND the ticket office is closed.

again, inconsistency, the fact that they allow this at any time only encourage people to think they can pay at the destination at other times.

paulm17781 · 31-03-2009 3:29pm

The rule is and always has been (though they only started enforcing it in about 2007) is that you must have a valid ticket if boarding any train. If the ticket office is closed you do not need a ticket to board but must purchase one at the first opportunity.

f the train was late and you decided to pay at the other end, you are liable for a fine.

faceman · 31-03-2009 3:40pm

I can never understand the animosity that gets carried out on these threads.

dowlingm · 31-03-2009 5:10pm

How much would a taxi have cost instead? Less than 50 Euro?

Look, there are so many people out there gaming the system that in hard cases it looks harsh. Making it to school on time looks like a valid excuse but why not simply allow adequate time to get to the station?

Red Sleeping Beauty · 06-04-2009 1:25am

On most trains in UK cities you can board trains no bother without a ticket and purchse one on the train no hassle whatsoever. If enough people refused to pay these insane fines IE would (or at least should) be forced to accept payment for a ticket either on the train or at the departing station.

parsi · 06-04-2009 8:32pm

Try that line with the Germans and see what happens....open platforms but you better have a ticket.

Guy:Incognito · 06-04-2009 8:49pm

Alan Rouge wrote: »

On most trains in UK cities you can board trains no bother without a ticket and purchse one on the train no hassle whatsoever. If enough people refused to pay these insane fines IE would (or at least should) be forced to accept payment for a ticket either on the train or at the departing station.

What percentage of people will actually pay at the far end if it's optional?

Do the old excuses of "I'm in a hurry" " I havnt got time to queue for 10 minutes to buy the ticket" still apply? Should the policy then be extended to "pay when you get around to it or when it suites you"?

I guarentee if the pay at the far end option is available then ticket sales will drop noticably.

Red Sleeping Beauty · 06-04-2009 9:00pm

Taking someone to court versus actually making it possible for them to pay the fare ?

Hmm, I'm no statistics expert or a number cruncher but I'd hazarrd a guess which is cheaper.

Guy:Incognito · 06-04-2009 9:09pm

Alan Rouge wrote: »

Taking someone to court versus actually making it possible for them to pay the fare ?

Hmm, I'm no statistics expert or a number cruncher but I'd hazarrd a guess which is cheaper.

The facilities were there for the OP's daughter to pay for the ticket but she didnt leave the house in time to buy a ticket from the desk (or the ticket machine it would seem) and didnt want to wait for the next train. I dont see what more IR are expected to do for her.

Red Sleeping Beauty · 06-04-2009 9:12pm

Grand so, lock her up and throw away the key for not paying a poxy few Euro ticket.

Godge · 06-04-2009 9:57pm

the ticket machines don't allow for student tickets so what happens if it is only the ticket office that is closed?

Guy:Incognito · 06-04-2009 10:16pm

Alan Rouge wrote: »

Grand so, lock her up and throw away the key for not paying a poxy few Euro ticket.

Why bother chargeing for the train at all so if theres no punishment for not paying?

Who said lock her up? She was fined, as standard. Stop being so dramatic.

markpb · 06-04-2009 11:27pm

Godge wrote: »

the ticket machines don't allow for student tickets so what happens if it is only the ticket office that is closed?

According to RUI, you don't have to buy a ticket from a ticket machine, only from the ticket office. If it's closed, you're legally entitled to board a train but you must buy a ticket as soon as possible. Presumably this is because there's a range of tickets that are only available at a desk .

dereko1969 · 07-04-2009 11:12am

Alan Rouge wrote: »

On most trains in UK cities you can board trains no bother without a ticket and purchse one on the train no hassle whatsoever. If enough people refused to pay these insane fines IE would (or at least should) be forced to accept payment for a ticket either on the train or at the departing station.

that would mean paying for extra staff on board each train, which on a dart style system is lunacy, you can't purchase tickets on board the tube so why should you expect it on the DART? IE are now finally taking steps to ensure that everyone that travels on the train has a valid ticket, which ensures that everyone pays their fair share, and then get lambasted for fining people that didn't bother paying for their ticket, they can't win.

Alun · 07-04-2009 11:39am

markpb wrote: »

According to RUI, you don't have to buy a ticket from a ticket machine, only from the ticket office.

Why is this as a matter of interest? Seems a little bizarre to me, or is it just a case that the legislation hasn't been amended to take the ticket machines into consideration?

markpb · 07-04-2009 11:53am

Alun wrote: »

Why is this as a matter of interest? Seems a little bizarre to me, or is it just a case that the legislation hasn't been amended to take the ticket machines into consideration?

Answer B apparently.

johnor · 07-04-2009 12:04pm

this happened to me too, going to connolly. I always walked passed that box to the left of the exit and presumed it was for buying tickets if you didnt get one from you departure station... the box is covered in those posters that i seem to see alot these days about paying the fare etc. anyhow long story short when i went to pay the guy was such a smartas$ i said i want to get a ticket and he said no problem, 50 euro.. thats what annoyed me as much as the fine itself..

the other thing was i was talking to the security guy then and he said "ah yea thats why we have that there we call it the honeytrap" so they know full well its causing confusion

Rawr · 07-04-2009 12:24pm

johnor wrote: »

this happened to me too, going to connolly. I always walked passed that box to the left of the exit and presumed it was for buying tickets if you didnt get one from you departure station... the box is covered in those posters that i seem to see alot these days about paying the fare etc. anyhow long story short when i went to pay the guy was such a smartas$ i said i want to get a ticket and he said no problem, 50 euro.. thats what annoyed me as much as the fine itself..

the other thing was i was talking to the security guy then and he said "ah yea thats why we have that there we call it the honeytrap" so they know full well its causing confusion

Honeytrap? Dang....

I mentioned on a topic way back, that Leixlip Louisa Bridge would often leave you with no option but to purchase a ticket at destination. This was usually due to the practice of closing the Leixlip's ticket hall on certain weekends, evenings, and other times during the day.

Said Ticket Hall also contains the Ticket Vending Machines, and so there'd be no opportunity for a casual commuter or tourist, to have a ticket before boarding.

I had noticed the 'honeytrap' before, and I had thought it to be where you could purchase your ticket if you were coming in from a semi-manned station, similar to Leixlip. On the one or two occasions where I've had to travel from Leixlip to Connolly without a ticket (for the reason outlined above), the 'honeytrap' would appear to be un-manned. Confused, I would simply continue to the barrier operator, who would accept my normal fare, and wave me through.

I wonder...do Connolly staff know when Leixlip and the like...are left unmanned?

Jesus1222 · 07-04-2009 12:29pm

In a sane world people could buy tickets at either end and a dynamic Minister would crack the whip and make it so. It would encourage more Dart usage for a start. Unfortunately like a lot of institutions in Ireland the name of the game is revenue generation and not being rational or fair to people coming to them looking to pay for their journey.

Alun · 07-04-2009 12:39pm

Jesus1222 wrote: »

In a sane world people could buy tickets at either end ...

The thing is though that that would depend on people being honest about where they had got on the train / DART, something that reading not only this forum but others on boards sems to be in very short supply.

Mr. Presentable · 07-04-2009 12:48pm

Jesus1222 wrote: »

In a sane world people could buy tickets at either end and a dynamic Minister would crack the whip and make it so. It would encourage more Dart usage for a start. Unfortunately like a lot of institutions in Ireland the name of the game is revenue generation and not being rational or fair to people coming to them looking to pay for their journey.

Have a ticket before boarding. Unless you want a one-fare-fits-all, which'd be my way of doing it. Ticket turnstiles at both ends of every trip would be required also.

And yes, the business of business is revenue generation. So they can pay staff, buy fuel etc.

Carawaystick · 07-04-2009 1:04pm

but you can't buy tickets at some stations any time, others you can only buy tickets some of the time. until that is changed, this issue will keep cropping up.

Jesus1222 · 07-04-2009 1:24pm

Alun wrote: »

The thing is though that that would depend on people being honest about where they had got on the train / DART, something that reading not only this forum but others on boards sems to be in very short supply.

Is that any reason for fine them 50 euro, they are voluntarily attempting to pay their fare? Why not charge them maximum fare?

It's about revenue generation, absolutely nothing else.

Trampas · 07-04-2009 1:42pm

Would the person pay if there was nobody at the far end collecting money?

I don't think so.

Jesus1222 · 07-04-2009 1:44pm

Trampas wrote: »

Would the person pay if there was nobody at the far end collecting money?

I don't think so.

In which case the issue of fining them 50 euro when they look to pay their fare becomes absolutely irrelevant.

Jesus1222 · 07-04-2009 1:51pm

nipplenuts wrote: »

Have a ticket before boarding. Unless you want a one-fare-fits-all, which'd be my way of doing it. Ticket turnstiles at both ends of every trip would be required also.

I'm not getting into a debate about fare structure, it's just a point about basic fairness. If a schoolkid comes to you looking to pay their fare at the end point, for whatever reason they didn't pay their fare at the start point, you shouldn't fine them 50 euro. It's counter productive and purely about shaking as much money out of people as possible, nothing else. Maximum fare, if you want to inflict a punishment on these insidious fare-payers, would be punishment enough.

And yes, the business of business is revenue generation. So they can pay staff, buy fuel etc.

Through ordinary business practices yes. Not fines for honest people. Public transport is a public service and not simply a business, if were simply a business very few of us would have access to public transport as it rarely runs profitably.

corktina · 07-04-2009 3:43pm

is it not more a case of " theres an Inspector on the gate, Id better offer to pay my fare"?

It is fairly clear to ticket inspectors when there is a problem with buying a ticket at a station as there would be perhaps several dozen people in the same boat. After all it only takes one person to suceed in buying a ticket to expose all the others who didnt bother.

Mr. Presentable · 07-04-2009 3:53pm

Jesus1222 wrote: »

I'm not getting into a debate about fare structure, it's just a point about basic fairness. If a schoolkid comes to you looking to pay their fare at the end point, for whatever reason they didn't pay their fare at the start point, you shouldn't fine them 50 euro. It's counter productive and purely about shaking as much money out of people as possible, nothing else. Maximum fare, if you want to inflict a punishment on these insidious fare-payers, would be punishment enough.

Through ordinary business practices yes. Not fines for honest people. Public transport is a public service and not simply a business, if were simply a business very few of us would have access to public transport as it rarely runs profitably.

As it happens, I imagine that as with Dublin Bus and Luas, there is a "Standard Fare" which is what you pay if you have no ticket - not a fine per se - so that to be clear, the fare is €50.00 but discounted to €4.00 if you buy a ticket before boarding. A fine only comes into play when Courts are involved.

It is not fines for "honest people" be they schoolboys or one-legged nuns hurrying to a funeral, it is simply a standard fare for those insufficiently organised to buy a ticket before they board. On the matter of ticket offices being closed the staff at the other end will know, and in any event the OP was referring to someone choosing not to buy at the ticket office - it was open.

MOH · 07-04-2009 3:54pm

dereko1969 wrote: »

that would mean paying for extra staff on board each train, which on a dart style system is lunacy, you can't purchase tickets on board the tube so why should you expect it on the DART? IE are now finally taking steps to ensure that everyone that travels on the train has a valid ticket, which ensures that everyone pays their fair share, and then get lambasted for fining people that didn't bother paying for their ticket, they can't win.

They're not though. They're taking steps to fine the people who try to pay for their ticket.

Trampas wrote: »

Would the person pay if there was nobody at the far end collecting money?

I don't think so.

Uh, how would you pay if there was no one there collecting money?

Alun wrote: »

The thing is though that that would depend on people being honest about where they had got on the train / DART, something that reading not only this forum but others on boards sems to be in very short supply.

There's a load of these thread that pop up regularly. The one thing they all have in common is they're people who genuinely think it's OK to pay at your destination, who are honest about paying, who get stung.

corktina wrote: »

is it not more a case of " theres an Inspector on the gate, Id better offer to pay my fare"?

It is fairly clear to ticket inspectors when there is a problem with buying a ticket at a station as there would be perhaps several dozen people in the same boat. After all it only takes one person to suceed in buying a ticket to expose all the others who didnt bother.

Except for people with multi-trip tickets (annual, weekly, etc). Or people who bought their ticket in advance. Or people who bought it from a TVM which mightn't offer the ticket someone else requires (and from which there appears to be no legal obligation to buy a ticket). Or what happens if the guy at the ticket desk is out at the toilet when you go through, and the person 2 mnutes behind you buys a ticket?

Irish Rail are great at putting up their "No ticket. No excuse" posters. The only problem is that they're inaccurate. It's perfectly valid to pay at destination under certain circumstances. The problem is their attitude is "guilty until proven innocent".

The joke being that shortly after the exit validation at Connonlly went in, an IE employee explained in a newspaper interview exactly how to get through the turnstiles without a ticket. So if someone's getting the same fine either way, there's absolutely no incentive to be honest sonce you'll be treated like a fare dodger anyway.

Jesus1222 · 08-04-2009 11:43am

Put whatever shape you want to on it, or talk about it in whatever legalese. The bottom line is that it's a fine. Whatever word is used is irrelevant.

nipplenuts wrote: »

As it happens, I imagine that as with Dublin Bus and Luas, there is a "Standard Fare" which is what you pay if you have no ticket - not a fine per se - so that to be clear, the fare is €50.00 but discounted to €4.00 if you buy a ticket before boarding. A fine only comes into play when Courts are involved.

They are honest people who want to pay the fare, if somebody is in a rush and the next Dart is 15/20 minutes behind then there should no problem with them getting a ticket at the far end. Yes, yes, yes they are in a rush, so what, it's modern life. People do things. People are late or frequently cutting it fine. I don't think they should be charged 50 euro a time. As I've said, it's not about a wish on their part to make sure the system is used, to save manpower or anything like that, they are absolutely delighted when people come up to them and are charged the maximum fare.

It is not fines for "honest people" be they schoolboys or one-legged nuns hurrying to a funeral, it is simply a standard fare for those insufficiently organised to buy a ticket before they board. On the matter of ticket offices being closed the staff at the other end will know, and in any event the OP was referring to someone choosing not to buy at the ticket office - it was open.

johnor · 08-04-2009 1:02pm

how about having a ticket thing on the actual dart?

i know when i "got caught" it was because i went up to the "honey trap" at the time my mate was suggesting to just walk behind him when he put his ticket in and i sia dhtat to the security guy and he said yea u shoulda done that... same fine is ridiculous... and the positioning of that booth is deliberately to catch people out

Stella Bella · 08-04-2009 1:58pm

I got a fine also at the 'Honeytrap', when the machine dispensing tickets would not accept my coins and there was noone at the booth. I purchased a ticket after the fact in the arrival station to provide with my claim. Now the 'Revenue protection unit' is suggesting that the machine at the originating station was in fact accepting coins on that day, and I have no proof otherwise.

I feel like I am being forced to pay to avoid a court date. Is it true that the legislation has not been changed to include reference to the machines?

Carawaystick · 08-04-2009 2:01pm

Stella Bella wrote: »

I got a fine also at the 'Honeytrap', when the machine dispensing tickets would not accept my coins and there was noone at the booth. I purchased a ticket after the fact in the arrival station to provide with my claim. Now the 'Revenue protection unit' is suggesting that the machine at the originating station was in fact accepting coins on that day, and I have no proof otherwise.

I feel like I am being forced to pay to avoid a court date. Is it true that the legislation has not been changed to include reference to the machines?

If they take you to court they would have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the machine was working. Which I doubt they would be able to do. Anyway if there is no ticket seller at the office then you do not have to buy a ticket from the machine. If they have conceded that there was no-one at the office, they have no case.

Stella Bella · 08-04-2009 2:05pm

They are not taking that view though. They are focusing on the fact that the machine was accepting coins.

Looking at the regs it provides:

4. Where the Board gives notice that a station is unattended or the booking office is closed, or where any person is instructed by an authorised person to board a train at a station without purchasing a ticket at the booking office so as not to delay the departure of the train from the station, any person not in possession of a valid ticket entitling him or her to travel may enter a vehicle at that station for the purpose of travelling but that person must obtain a ticket or other authority from an authorised person on the train as soon as practicable after entering any vehicle or from an authorised person on arrival at the station to which such person is travelling by the train.

If I had been deliquent I would pay, but I was not. I do not however think I can have the stress of a court appearance for the sake of €50.

Stella Bella · 08-04-2009 2:07pm

According to their rep they do have the print out showing that the machine was accepting coins both prior to and following my effort to purchase a ticket.

Jesus1222 · 09-04-2009 1:44am

Stella Bella wrote: »

According to their rep they do have the print out showing that the machine was accepting coins both prior to and following my effort to purchase a ticket.

Do you honestly think they'd take you to court?

Cost/benefit. Tell them you'll be fighting it and I bet they don't bother. Kick up a ****storm in the meantime.

Carawaystick · 09-04-2009 1:05pm

Stella Bella wrote: »

According to their rep they do have the print out showing that the machine was accepting coins both prior to and following my effort to purchase a ticket.

Ask them for a copy. Tell them they'll have to give you a copy as you prepare your defense anyway. More importantly, ask for evidence the ticket office was open, as there's no requirement to buy a ticket from a machine.

Victor · 09-04-2009 8:46pm

Jesus1222 wrote: »

In a sane world people could buy tickets at either end

In a sane world, everyone would have a season ticket or buy a ticket before boarding.

Jesus1222 wrote: »

Is that any reason for fine them 50 euro, they are voluntarily attempting to pay their fare? Why not charge them maximum fare?

It's about revenue generation, absolutely nothing else.

Maximum fare is about €124.

€50 fine - not in possession of DART ticket

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