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€50 fine - not in possession of DART ticket

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    #32
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    but you can't buy tickets at some stations any time, others you can only buy tickets some of the time. until that is changed, this issue will keep cropping up.


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    #33
    Jesus1222
    Closed Accounts Posts: 301 ✭✭Jesus1222


    Alun wrote: »
    The thing is though that that would depend on people being honest about where they had got on the train / DART, something that reading not only this forum but others on boards sems to be in very short supply.

    Is that any reason for fine them 50 euro, they are voluntarily attempting to pay their fare? Why not charge them maximum fare?

    It's about revenue generation, absolutely nothing else.


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    #34
    Trampas
    Registered Users Posts: 7,427 ✭✭✭Trampas


    Would the person pay if there was nobody at the far end collecting money?

    I don't think so.


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    #35
    Jesus1222
    Closed Accounts Posts: 301 ✭✭Jesus1222


    Trampas wrote: »
    Would the person pay if there was nobody at the far end collecting money?

    I don't think so.

    In which case the issue of fining them 50 euro when they look to pay their fare becomes absolutely irrelevant.


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    #36
    Jesus1222
    Closed Accounts Posts: 301 ✭✭Jesus1222


    nipplenuts wrote: »
    Have a ticket before boarding. Unless you want a one-fare-fits-all, which'd be my way of doing it. Ticket turnstiles at both ends of every trip would be required also.

    I'm not getting into a debate about fare structure, it's just a point about basic fairness. If a schoolkid comes to you looking to pay their fare at the end point, for whatever reason they didn't pay their fare at the start point, you shouldn't fine them 50 euro. It's counter productive and purely about shaking as much money out of people as possible, nothing else. Maximum fare, if you want to inflict a punishment on these insidious fare-payers, would be punishment enough.
    And yes, the business of business is revenue generation. So they can pay staff, buy fuel etc. :confused:

    Through ordinary business practices yes. Not fines for honest people. Public transport is a public service and not simply a business, if were simply a business very few of us would have access to public transport as it rarely runs profitably.


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    #37
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    is it not more a case of " theres an Inspector on the gate, Id better offer to pay my fare"?


    It is fairly clear to ticket inspectors when there is a problem with buying a ticket at a station as there would be perhaps several dozen people in the same boat. After all it only takes one person to suceed in buying a ticket to expose all the others who didnt bother.


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    #38
    Mr. Presentable
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,496 ✭✭✭Mr. Presentable


    Jesus1222 wrote: »
    I'm not getting into a debate about fare structure, it's just a point about basic fairness. If a schoolkid comes to you looking to pay their fare at the end point, for whatever reason they didn't pay their fare at the start point, you shouldn't fine them 50 euro. It's counter productive and purely about shaking as much money out of people as possible, nothing else. Maximum fare, if you want to inflict a punishment on these insidious fare-payers, would be punishment enough.



    Through ordinary business practices yes. Not fines for honest people. Public transport is a public service and not simply a business, if were simply a business very few of us would have access to public transport as it rarely runs profitably.


    As it happens, I imagine that as with Dublin Bus and Luas, there is a "Standard Fare" which is what you pay if you have no ticket - not a fine per se - so that to be clear, the fare is €50.00 but discounted to €4.00 if you buy a ticket before boarding. A fine only comes into play when Courts are involved.

    It is not fines for "honest people" be they schoolboys or one-legged nuns hurrying to a funeral, it is simply a standard fare for those insufficiently organised to buy a ticket before they board. On the matter of ticket offices being closed the staff at the other end will know, and in any event the OP was referring to someone choosing not to buy at the ticket office - it was open.


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    #39
    MOH
    Registered Users Posts: 6,464 ✭✭✭MOH


    dereko1969 wrote: »
    that would mean paying for extra staff on board each train, which on a dart style system is lunacy, you can't purchase tickets on board the tube so why should you expect it on the DART? IE are now finally taking steps to ensure that everyone that travels on the train has a valid ticket, which ensures that everyone pays their fair share, and then get lambasted for fining people that didn't bother paying for their ticket, they can't win.

    They're not though. They're taking steps to fine the people who try to pay for their ticket.

    Trampas wrote: »
    Would the person pay if there was nobody at the far end collecting money?

    I don't think so.

    Uh, how would you pay if there was no one there collecting money?
    Alun wrote: »
    The thing is though that that would depend on people being honest about where they had got on the train / DART, something that reading not only this forum but others on boards sems to be in very short supply.

    There's a load of these thread that pop up regularly. The one thing they all have in common is they're people who genuinely think it's OK to pay at your destination, who are honest about paying, who get stung.
    corktina wrote: »
    is it not more a case of " theres an Inspector on the gate, Id better offer to pay my fare"?

    It is fairly clear to ticket inspectors when there is a problem with buying a ticket at a station as there would be perhaps several dozen people in the same boat. After all it only takes one person to suceed in buying a ticket to expose all the others who didnt bother.

    Except for people with multi-trip tickets (annual, weekly, etc). Or people who bought their ticket in advance. Or people who bought it from a TVM which mightn't offer the ticket someone else requires (and from which there appears to be no legal obligation to buy a ticket). Or what happens if the guy at the ticket desk is out at the toilet when you go through, and the person 2 mnutes behind you buys a ticket?



    Irish Rail are great at putting up their "No ticket. No excuse" posters. The only problem is that they're inaccurate. It's perfectly valid to pay at destination under certain circumstances. The problem is their attitude is "guilty until proven innocent".


    The joke being that shortly after the exit validation at Connonlly went in, an IE employee explained in a newspaper interview exactly how to get through the turnstiles without a ticket. So if someone's getting the same fine either way, there's absolutely no incentive to be honest sonce you'll be treated like a fare dodger anyway.


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    #40
    Jesus1222
    Closed Accounts Posts: 301 ✭✭Jesus1222


    Put whatever shape you want to on it, or talk about it in whatever legalese. The bottom line is that it's a fine. Whatever word is used is irrelevant.
    nipplenuts wrote: »
    As it happens, I imagine that as with Dublin Bus and Luas, there is a "Standard Fare" which is what you pay if you have no ticket - not a fine per se - so that to be clear, the fare is €50.00 but discounted to €4.00 if you buy a ticket before boarding. A fine only comes into play when Courts are involved.

    They are honest people who want to pay the fare, if somebody is in a rush and the next Dart is 15/20 minutes behind then there should no problem with them getting a ticket at the far end. Yes, yes, yes they are in a rush, so what, it's modern life. People do things. People are late or frequently cutting it fine. I don't think they should be charged 50 euro a time. As I've said, it's not about a wish on their part to make sure the system is used, to save manpower or anything like that, they are absolutely delighted when people come up to them and are charged the maximum fare.
    It is not fines for "honest people" be they schoolboys or one-legged nuns hurrying to a funeral, it is simply a standard fare for those insufficiently organised to buy a ticket before they board. On the matter of ticket offices being closed the staff at the other end will know, and in any event the OP was referring to someone choosing not to buy at the ticket office - it was open.


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    #41
    johnor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 635 ✭✭✭johnor


    how about having a ticket thing on the actual dart?


    i know when i "got caught" it was because i went up to the "honey trap" at the time my mate was suggesting to just walk behind him when he put his ticket in and i sia dhtat to the security guy and he said yea u shoulda done that... same fine is ridiculous... and the positioning of that booth is deliberately to catch people out


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    #42
    Stella Bella
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3 ✭Stella Bella


    I got a fine also at the 'Honeytrap', when the machine dispensing tickets would not accept my coins and there was noone at the booth. I purchased a ticket after the fact in the arrival station to provide with my claim. Now the 'Revenue protection unit' is suggesting that the machine at the originating station was in fact accepting coins on that day, and I have no proof otherwise.

    I feel like I am being forced to pay to avoid a court date. Is it true that the legislation has not been changed to include reference to the machines?


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    #43
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    Stella Bella wrote: »
    I got a fine also at the 'Honeytrap', when the machine dispensing tickets would not accept my coins and there was noone at the booth. I purchased a ticket after the fact in the arrival station to provide with my claim. Now the 'Revenue protection unit' is suggesting that the machine at the originating station was in fact accepting coins on that day, and I have no proof otherwise.

    I feel like I am being forced to pay to avoid a court date. Is it true that the legislation has not been changed to include reference to the machines?

    If they take you to court they would have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the machine was working. Which I doubt they would be able to do. Anyway if there is no ticket seller at the office then you do not have to buy a ticket from the machine. If they have conceded that there was no-one at the office, they have no case.


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    #44
    Stella Bella
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3 ✭Stella Bella


    They are not taking that view though. They are focusing on the fact that the machine was accepting coins.

    Looking at the regs it provides:

    4. Where the Board gives notice that a station is unattended or the booking office is closed, or where any person is instructed by an authorised person to board a train at a station without purchasing a ticket at the booking office so as not to delay the departure of the train from the station, any person not in possession of a valid ticket entitling him or her to travel may enter a vehicle at that station for the purpose of travelling but that person must obtain a ticket or other authority from an authorised person on the train as soon as practicable after entering any vehicle or from an authorised person on arrival at the station to which such person is travelling by the train.

    If I had been deliquent I would pay, but I was not. I do not however think I can have the stress of a court appearance for the sake of €50.


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    #45
    Stella Bella
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3 ✭Stella Bella


    According to their rep they do have the print out showing that the machine was accepting coins both prior to and following my effort to purchase a ticket.


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    #46
    Jesus1222
    Closed Accounts Posts: 301 ✭✭Jesus1222


    Stella Bella wrote: »
    According to their rep they do have the print out showing that the machine was accepting coins both prior to and following my effort to purchase a ticket.

    Do you honestly think they'd take you to court?

    Cost/benefit. Tell them you'll be fighting it and I bet they don't bother. Kick up a ****storm in the meantime.


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    #47
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    Stella Bella wrote: »
    According to their rep they do have the print out showing that the machine was accepting coins both prior to and following my effort to purchase a ticket.

    Ask them for a copy. Tell them they'll have to give you a copy as you prepare your defense anyway. More importantly, ask for evidence the ticket office was open, as there's no requirement to buy a ticket from a machine.


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    #48
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,278 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Jesus1222 wrote: »
    In a sane world people could buy tickets at either end
    In a sane world, everyone would have a season ticket or buy a ticket before boarding.
    Jesus1222 wrote: »
    Is that any reason for fine them 50 euro, they are voluntarily attempting to pay their fare? Why not charge them maximum fare?

    It's about revenue generation, absolutely nothing else.
    Maximum fare is about €124.


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