Election 2020 - Roads [READ MOD POST #1]

marno21 · 20-01-2020 9:38pm #1

There's some election talk spilling into some of the individual scheme threads but I decided to start a thread about what effect the election will have on the Roads programme.

Posts about politics not directly related to roads/infrastructure/capital spending policies and how they will affect road upgrades will be considered off topic and deleted. Bear this in mind when posting

hometruths · 21-01-2020 7:15pm

I think the Greens will have significant influence, with maybe even a Green Tanaiste!

Presumably they will put the kybosh on a lot of projects that are still in the design stage. I guess their alternative will be to divert the money to public transport.

Could see a few interesting proposals suggested!

prunudo · 21-01-2020 7:39pm

schmittel wrote: »

I think the Greens will have significant influence, with maybe even a Green Tanaiste!

Presumably they will put the kybosh on a lot of projects that are still in the design stage. I guess their alternative will be to divert the money to public transport.

Could see a few interesting proposals suggested!

My biggest issue with the greens is their total dismissal of roads improvements being needed.
While I know we need to spend money on public transport we can't simply turn our backs on road upgrades. Roads play their part in a modern economy for movement of goods and people. Electric vehicles are becoming more common and will continue to do so, I'm still unsure whether its the combustion engine they have an issue with or private car use.

hometruths · 21-01-2020 7:47pm

I agree with all that.

My fear with the greens is they will pull the plug on the N11 project, because they can’t really back any option.

really that problem needs to be tackled once and for all and the greens will just delay the inevitable while the problem gets worse.

prunudo · 21-01-2020 8:05pm

schmittel wrote: »

I agree with all that.

My fear with the greens is they will pull the plug on the N11 project, because they can’t really back any option.

really that problem needs to be tackled once and for all and the greens will just delay the inevitable while the problem gets worse.

Yeah, I'd be fearful of the M20 too and of every other project tbh. I expect Ryan will be out with his crayons again soon, drawing trainlines all over the country.

marno21 · 22-01-2020 1:29am

The most realistic route for the Greens to power is in coalition with Fianna Fail. Stephen Donnelly will win in Wicklow for FF and he's been extremely pro N11 upgrade in the Dail.

Add to that that the Greens are likely to pick up all their seats in Dublin or suburban commuter belt areas and most of the planned road schemes are in more rural areas. It'll be a battle that I hope the pro-roads side wins as it's mainly Mr Ryan rather than individual members in the Green Party that are anti-road. Cannabalising the M20 or the Virginia bypass in the name of climate action while China and other emerging markets open coal power plants like there's no tomorrow is not sound economic policy.

Add to that the last time the Greens were in power was when Ireland saw it's biggest splurge on motorways in the history of the State with 400km or so opened during their 4 year stint. Fine Gael hope to open c. 200km of motorway at most by 2027.

RedDevil55 · 22-01-2020 1:55am

Eamon Ryan was on morning Ireland a few days ago saying he'd scrap the Turlough to Westport N5 scheme if he got into power. Saoirse McHugh (Mayo Green Party candidate) also using that as one of her main election ideas.

I presume that scheme is too far gone to be interrupted by a new government?

AAAAAAAAA · 23-01-2020 12:46pm

marno21 wrote: »

The most realistic route for the Greens to power is in coalition with Fianna Fail. Stephen Donnelly will win in Wicklow for FF and he's been extremely pro N11 upgrade in the Dail.

Are you certain about that? Everyone who previously voted for Donnelly voted for him explicitly because he was not in FF in the previous elections. Now he just looks like a revolting turncoat.

steeler j · 23-01-2020 3:08pm

U worry about the greens getting near government but labour were all talk 10 years ago but just bowed down to fine geal when in government, Eamon Ryan scares me with his talk

2020Vision · 23-01-2020 3:16pm

AAAAAAAAA wrote: »

Are you certain about that? Everyone who previously voted for Donnelly voted for him explicitly because he was not in FF in the previous elections. Now he just looks like a revolting turncoat.

He doesn't just look like one ............ he is one! Unfortunately, simply wearing the FF jersey in a largely rural constituency is often sufficient to get one elected.

On the N11 subject, I suspect that the Green solution might involve a significant enhancement of the Wicklow commuter railway line - which is probably a good idea although likely to be very expensive.

hometruths · 23-01-2020 3:52pm

marno21 wrote: »

The most realistic route for the Greens to power is in coalition with Fianna Fail. Stephen Donnelly will win in Wicklow for FF and he's been extremely pro N11 upgrade in the Dail.

Stephen Donnelly reckons he could have the problem fixed in three weeks by converting the bus lane to a hard shoulder.

https://wicklownews.net/2019/12/3-point-plan-could-end-n11-nightmare-before-christmas/

Apparently this plan does not actually include widening the road at all, so everyone is winner.

The only winner with this plan is Stephen Donnelly if he manages to get enough gullible voters to believe that it is possible.

marno21 · 31-01-2020 11:10pm

Right, so from what I can gather the Green Party's position on motorways in Munster is as follows.

4 motorways leaving Limerick: M21 to Tralee, M7 to Dublin, M18 to Galway and M20/24 to Cork/Waterford

1 motorway leaving Cork: M8 to Limerick/Galway/Dublin/Waterford (engineers will know that having a single point of failure is an excellent approach to take here).

The Cork North Central candidate favours the M8 approach along with cancelling the M28 leaving the city isolated from its biggest employment hub and the Port of Cork, which also restricts operations at the Port of Cork, and pours cold water on proposals to relocate the port to free up prime city centre real estate which can then be used for sustainable, city centre based, dense housing and commercial use: https://www.thecork.ie/2019/07/03/greens-call-for-a-shift-from-a-car-first-approach-in-the-how-the-ndp-affects-the-region/

I haven't seen any positions on them but I'm willing to take from this that the Green Party are not in favour of motorways from Cork to Macroom or Bandon, leaving Cork with 1 motorway leaving the city. In comparison Waterford will have 3, Galway will have 3 and Limerick will have 4.

Do the Greens have an issue with Cork or what's behind this daft, hair brained nonsense?

Aontachtoir · 01-02-2020 4:09pm

Don't worry about the Greens delaying roads if they are junior partners in government. Today's Times poll has SF in second and there are rumours at least one of the two polls which are landing over the weekend will have them first.

If SF come first you can wave goodbye to significant infrastructural spending of any kind (roads and public transport alike). Populists don't invest in the future, they just buy votes in the present. Think how many votes that €1b for the M20 could buy.

annfield1978 · 01-02-2020 8:14pm

RedDevil55 wrote: »

Eamon Ryan was on morning Ireland a few days ago saying he'd scrap the Turlough to Westport N5 scheme if he got into power. Saoirse McHugh (Mayo Green Party candidate) also using that as one of her main election ideas.

I presume that scheme is too far gone to be interrupted by a new government?

Surely the green candidate in Mayo would be sharp enough to think it and not say it in relation to scraping the N5. The contract is signed so BAM and Wills would have a field day in the courts.

Cookiemunster · 02-02-2020 11:14am

annfield1978 wrote: »

Surely the green candidate in Mayo would be sharp enough to think it and not say it in relation to scraping the N5. The contract is signed so BAM and Wills would have a field day in the courts.

Ryan has back tracked a bit on that recently. In the most recent interview I heard he said he now recognised that they couldnt stop the roads that already had contracts signed.

Someone must have had a word in his ear.

highwaymaniac · 02-02-2020 2:48pm

Jerry Buttimer seems to have jumped off the M28 steering group bandwagon! Never let an election campaign get in the way of the truth! Some cheek.

Jim Gazebo · 02-02-2020 11:48pm

highwaymaniac wrote: »

Jerry Buttimer seems to have jumped off the M28 steering group bandwagon! Never let an election campaign get in the way of the truth! Some cheek.

Exactly the reason he will be rejected again.

AugustusMinimus · 04-02-2020 12:40am

highwaymaniac wrote: »

Jerry Buttimer seems to have jumped off the M28 steering group bandwagon! Never let an election campaign get in the way of the truth! Some cheek.

What a lying f*ck

marno21 · 08-02-2020 4:30pm

highwaymaniac wrote: »

Jerry Buttimer seems to have jumped off the M28 steering group bandwagon! Never let an election campaign get in the way of the truth! Some cheek.

Classic political advertising. Supports “the upgrade of the N28” but not specifically the M28 project. Trying to pretend he is pro N28 upgrade but not the project as is.

marno21 · 29-02-2020 7:26pm

Six people killed on the national roads network in the last 24 hours.

Perhaps the Green Party might be aware of this instead of all the road investment bashing

steeler j · 29-02-2020 8:23pm

10 billion euro investment would go along way especially if it was over a 20 to 25 year period,the greens have to realize a life is priceless

Aontachtoir · 29-02-2020 10:47pm

marno21 wrote: »

Six people killed on the national roads network in the last 24 hours.

Perhaps the Green Party might be aware of this instead of all the road investment bashing

In fairness, I don't think the Greens can be accused of not caring. Their solution to road deaths is to slash private car use - using whatever carrots and sticks they have at hand - and getting people to travel by foot, bicycle, or public transport. As private car users account for the vast majority of road deaths as far as I can tell, any reduction in the number of private car users will most likely lead to a drop in road deaths. It won't eliminate them, but nor will building motorways.

Disagree with their methods all you like, and I think road upgrades and better public transport are both needed, but I don't think it is fair to accuse them of not caring about road deaths.

SeanW · 01-03-2020 2:11pm

It's perfectly fair. We know that a road journey on a controlled access road (e.g. motorway) is safer than an equivalent journey on a mixed use single carriageway. Especially when the route in question is very busy with heavy opposite direction traffic and heavy crossing traffic and the speeds expected at long distance travel.

Every death on the N20 and other highly overused single carriageways from now on should be laid at the feet of the Greens. BTW if the Greens cared so much about public transport etc they wouldn't have helped scupper the Southern portion of the Dublin Metro. So it is fair to blame the ongoing misery of Green Line Luas users on the so-called Green party as well.

Sam Russell · 01-03-2020 2:26pm

SeanW wrote: »

It's perfectly fair. We know that a road journey on a controlled access road (e.g. motorway) is safer than an equivalent journey on a mixed use single carriageway. Especially when the route in question is very busy with heavy opposite direction traffic and heavy crossing traffic and the speeds expected at long distance travel.

Every death on the N20 and other highly overused single carriageways from now on should be laid at the feet of the Greens. BTW if the Greens cared so much about public transport etc they wouldn't have helped scupper the Southern portion of the Dublin Metro. So it is fair to blame the ongoing misery of Green Line Luas users on the so-called Green party as well.

I think it was a sewer under the canal that scuppered the GL extension.

The M20 needs to be built for safety reasons if for no other. It appears to be silly to not build it 'because we need more PT'. The M20 will be used to provide better PT as there is no adequate rail service alternative.

L1011 · 01-03-2020 2:58pm

Eamon Ryan let himself be used as a useful idiot to push for diverting the Metro to somewhere that's convinced they can avoid losing their driveways for bus lanes if there's a Metro (they won't)

The sewer just meant a different emergence point.

Aontachtoir · 01-03-2020 3:19pm

SeanW wrote: »

Every death on the N20 and other highly overused single carriageways from now on should be laid at the feet of the Greens.

That is definitely unfair, as the Greens aren't in government.

Road deaths can't just be blamed on political parties. In my first week at CUH I saw a horrific crash - an old woman who shouldn't have been driving went the wrong way up the M8 by Fermoy, struck a car containing a young couple, and killed herself, the husband in the other car, and the pregnant wife's baby. The wife nearly died too.

Who do you blame for that? The truth is that where there are roads, there are accidents, and just blaming the Greens for road deaths is neither fair nor logical. Road upgrades and better options besides driving are both needed. The motorway didn't save lives in this particular situation, but maybe if the demented old woman hadn't needed to drive to get her groceries, she wouldn't have been on the road in the first place.

SeanW · 01-03-2020 7:37pm

Aontachtoir wrote: »

That is definitely unfair, as the Greens aren't in government.

Yet.

Road deaths can't just be blamed on political parties. In my first week at CUH I saw a horrific crash - an old woman who shouldn't have been driving went the wrong way up the M8 by Fermoy, struck a car containing a young couple, and killed herself, the husband in the other car, and the pregnant wife's baby. The wife nearly died too.

The exception does not disprove the rule - indeed your example shows the level of recklessness and/or inattention that is necessary to cause fatalities on a motorway. It's much easier to make a smaller mistake and get into a fatal accident on a non-motorway road with opposing and crossing traffic everywhere.

Who do you blame for that? The truth is that where there are roads, there are accidents, and just blaming the Greens for road deaths is neither fair nor logical. Road upgrades and better options besides driving are both needed. The motorway didn't save lives in this particular situation, but maybe if the demented old woman hadn't needed to drive to get her groceries, she wouldn't have been on the road in the first place.

It is true that there are many causes of fatal accidents, but road profile is a significant contributing cause in a lot of cases. If it weren't we could just have 100,000 drivers a day driving on boreens. And this is part of the pattern with Greens.

They say they want public transport but oppose the Dublin Metro and helped kill its Southern half.
They say they want a de-carbonised power grid but are the fiercest opponents of nuclear energy.
They say (presumably) they want to minimise road fatalities but oppose motorways.

Even if they are successful in driving all poor/working people off the road, getting us all to eat museli and wear birkenstock, pray to shrines of Saint Greta of Stockholm, whatever, our roads are still decades behind where they need to be.

If the Greens had a policy of simply increasing transport infrastructural spending - adding lots more public transport, cycle lanes and whatever else they want IN ADDITION to investment in roads, I'd actually support that. But that's not what I'm seeing.

AugustusMinimus · 01-03-2020 8:32pm

SeanW wrote: »

Yet.

The exception does not disprove the rule - indeed your example shows the level of recklessness and/or inattention that is necessary to cause fatalities on a motorway. It's much easier to make a smaller mistake and get into a fatal accident on a non-motorway road with opposing and crossing traffic everywhere.

It is true that there are many causes of fatal accidents, but road profile is a significant contributing cause in a lot of cases. If it weren't we could just have 100,000 drivers a day driving on boreens. And this is part of the pattern with Greens.

They say they want public transport but oppose the Dublin Metro and helped kill its Southern half.
They say they want a de-carbonised power grid but are the fiercest opponents of nuclear energy.
They say (presumably) they want to minimise road fatalities but oppose motorways.

Even if they are successful in driving all poor/working people off the road, getting us all to eat museli and wear birkenstock, pray to shrines of Saint Greta of Stockholm, whatever, our roads are still decades behind where they need to be.

If the Greens had a policy of simply increasing transport infrastructural spending - adding lots more public transport, cycle lanes and whatever else they want IN ADDITION to investment in roads, I'd actually support that. But that's not what I'm seeing.

I’ve said it before. The greens are largely luddites with a lot of them eager to always been seen as alternative.

- Motorway proposed. Oppose motorway and propose a train line.
- Train line proposed. Oppose train line and propose a green way.

It’s never ending with the greens. The opposition to nuclear power at a time we basically need to eradicate all carbon emissions is baffling to say the least.

Sam Russell · 01-03-2020 8:57pm

It was not jst the Greens that opposed the GL upgrade.

Jim O'Callahan was opposed to it, and Bsconnects. ate O'Connell was oppsed to Busconnects, and I think the GL upgrade.

They all backed the NIMBY constituency. I think most candidates do.

Last Stop · 01-03-2020 11:03pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

It was not jst the Greens that opposed the GL upgrade.

Jim O'Callahan was opposed to it, and Bsconnects. ate O'Connell was oppsed to Busconnects, and I think the GL upgrade.

They all backed the NIMBY constituency. I think most candidates do.

But when your main selling point is environment issues including the use of public transport, it doesn’t look good.
At least with the other candidates, they can point to their policies on health, education etc. The Green Party simply don’t have it.
They are a one trick pony and they can’t even fully support that.

Sam Russell · 02-03-2020 11:34am

Last Stop wrote: »

But when your main selling point is environment issues including the use of public transport, it doesn’t look good.
At least with the other candidates, they can point to their policies on health, education etc. The Green Party simply don’t have it.
They are a one trick pony and they can’t even fully support that.

I am not an apologist for the Green Party.

I fear this is getting off topic. The topic should be not Political, merely political - that is comments on road policies as espoused by the parties.

Health, and even the Metro is off topic. Think roads. Nice shiny dual carriage ways, and huge new bridges.

Election 2020 - Roads [READ MOD POST #1]

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