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10-02-2019, 14:47   #1
mrslancaster
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Licensees & Sublets

Long post and apologies if it is in the wrong place and mods please move if it should be elsewhere - thanks.

Having followed this and other threads about licencees and sublets, I would really appreciate it if someone would be happy to discuss the differences between sub-letting and licencees in rented accommodation as I find it very confusing thb. Hopefully I'm not alone and maybe others might find a discussion a bit helpful also.

Licencees
From what I can gather a licencee situation occurs when a person stays in a property with a main tenant/s at their request, eg BF/GF moves in or additional person moves in to help with rent costs. Straightforward enough - a licencee is not a tenant and is not covered by the RTB.

Afaik, if the main tenant agrees to someone living in the rented property, then he is required by law under the RTA to inform the LL. If the tenant does not inform the LL, are they breaking some clause / requirements of the RTA?

If the LL is informed and is ok with it, no problem - the main tenant has a licencee. If the licencee then wants to become an official tenant with the protections of legislation and the RTB, they can apply to the LL. Does the LL have to agree to it?
  • If the LL agrees, does it mean a new tenancy agreement is required and all parties need to sign?
  • Is that in effect a new TA with all parties now covered by the legislation and the RTB?
  • If the new TA starts from the date it is signed, how does that affect the original tenant's Part4 rights?
  • Do all the tenants named on the new TA need a new registration in the RTB or just the additional people?
  • Does the original TA agreement still stand with the main tenant and a completely separate TA drawn up with the new tenants? In that case, would it follow that the LL has lettings to several individuals for different time-periods and if so, would the original tenant cease to have exclusive use of the property?

how does it work?


Sub-letting

Now subletting is even more confusing to me than the situation above. I always thought subletting was where the original tenant moved out and another person took over temporarily.

For example, say a main tenant has lived in accommodation for 2 years and has acquired Part4 rights. He needs to work away temporarily for x months and does not want to lose his home. If the LL agrees and there is nothing in the TA to stop it, he can find someone for the x months and sublet strictly on a temporary basis as he has 100% intention to return when the job is finished.

How does this work?
  • Is a new TA required for the sublet?
  • Does the LL or the main tenant draw up a new TA for the sublet with the temporary person?
  • If it is the main tenant who does it and he in effect becomes the subletters landlord, does he need to register with the RTB?
  • If the main tenant is now effectively a LL, what happens his part4 rights?
  • If the sublet is for more than 6 months then presumably the subletting tenant acquires part4 rights?
  • Does the RTB cover the main tenant, the subletting tenant or both?
  • If the subletting tenant acquires part4 rights and the main tenant returns, who is entitled to live in the accommodation?
  • If a dispute should arise and both the main tenant and the subletter both have part4 rights, who is the LL legally responsible to?

    I understand what others posted about a breach of the TA but if a LL agrees to the above scenarios, these questions must crop up.

    Also, if notice periods are extended as flagged by GGtrek and others, would it be madness for any tenant to sublet for even short periods of time without running into major headaches. Would that mean they would just have to leave the accommodation empty and continue to pay the rent.. It could also have Insurance implications for the LL..
So so confusing.
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10-02-2019, 18:43   #2
cornet
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Would the original tenant be liable for tax?
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11-02-2019, 09:09   #3
GGTrek
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrslancaster View Post
Long post and apologies if it is in the wrong place and mods please move if it should be elsewhere - thanks.

Having followed this and other threads about licencees and sublets, I would really appreciate it if someone would be happy to discuss the differences between sub-letting and licencees in rented accommodation as I find it very confusing thb. Hopefully I'm not alone and maybe others might find a discussion a bit helpful also.

Licencees
From what I can gather a licencee situation occurs when a person stays in a property with a main tenant/s at their request, eg BF/GF moves in or additional person moves in to help with rent costs. Straightforward enough - a licencee is not a tenant and is not covered by the RTB.

Afaik, if the main tenant agrees to someone living in the rented property, then he is required by law under the RTA to inform the LL. If the tenant does not inform the LL, are they breaking some clause / requirements of the RTA?

If the LL is informed and is ok with it, no problem - the main tenant has a licencee. If the licencee then wants to become an official tenant with the protections of legislation and the RTB, they can apply to the LL. Does the LL have to agree to it?
  • If the LL agrees, does it mean a new tenancy agreement is required and all parties need to sign?
  • Is that in effect a new TA with all parties now covered by the legislation and the RTB?
  • If the new TA starts from the date it is signed, how does that affect the original tenant's Part4 rights?
  • Do all the tenants named on the new TA need a new registration in the RTB or just the additional people?
  • Does the original TA agreement still stand with the main tenant and a completely separate TA drawn up with the new tenants? In that case, would it follow that the LL has lettings to several individuals for different time-periods and if so, would the original tenant cease to have exclusive use of the property?

how does it work?


Sub-letting

Now subletting is even more confusing to me than the situation above. I always thought subletting was where the original tenant moved out and another person took over temporarily.

For example, say a main tenant has lived in accommodation for 2 years and has acquired Part4 rights. He needs to work away temporarily for x months and does not want to lose his home. If the LL agrees and there is nothing in the TA to stop it, he can find someone for the x months and sublet strictly on a temporary basis as he has 100% intention to return when the job is finished.

How does this work?
  • Is a new TA required for the sublet?
  • Does the LL or the main tenant draw up a new TA for the sublet with the temporary person?
  • If it is the main tenant who does it and he in effect becomes the subletters landlord, does he need to register with the RTB?
  • If the main tenant is now effectively a LL, what happens his part4 rights?
  • If the sublet is for more than 6 months then presumably the subletting tenant acquires part4 rights?
  • Does the RTB cover the main tenant, the subletting tenant or both?
  • If the subletting tenant acquires part4 rights and the main tenant returns, who is entitled to live in the accommodation?
  • If a dispute should arise and both the main tenant and the subletter both have part4 rights, who is the LL legally responsible to?

    I understand what others posted about a breach of the TA but if a LL agrees to the above scenarios, these questions must crop up.

    Also, if notice periods are extended as flagged by GGtrek and others, would it be madness for any tenant to sublet for even short periods of time without running into major headaches. Would that mean they would just have to leave the accommodation empty and continue to pay the rent.. It could also have Insurance implications for the LL..
So so confusing.

I believe you need to first read a good amount of documentation of licence vs sublet (yes in this thread there is confusion about licensees of the main tenant vs proper sublet) and then come back with a shorter list of questions (I doubt someone who has work to do could spend the hours necessary to answer all your questions).

I suggest to start reading page 22-23 of this document:
https://www.flac.ie/download/pdf/lan...tenant2016.pdf
then read these:
https://www.rtb.ie/docs/default-sour...s.pdf?sfvrsn=2
https://www.rtb.ie/media-research/pu...s-and-licences
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/show...p?t=2057247110


Then start looking at the RTB Tribunal disputes for subletting or occupiers and breaches of sections 16(k) and (n) of the RTA. It is hard work.
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11-02-2019, 11:34   #4
Graham
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11-02-2019, 12:50   #5
mrslancaster
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Thanks a lot for those links, time to start reading and try to get a better understanding of this as it is something that is very common for a lot of renters.

Last edited by mrslancaster; 11-02-2019 at 12:55.
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11-02-2019, 13:13   #6
Cuddlesworth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrslancaster View Post
would the original tenant cease to have exclusive use of the property?
It is confusing isn't it.

I would read it as primarily being how the existing tenant chose to treat the person based on exclusive access.

for example if the tenant brought in a person, gave them a private room with the expectation that nobody was allowed enter without permission, 6 months in they can request a tenancy under Part 4 because they retained exclusive use of a part of the property. I don't even think the landlord has to be aware of their presence.

Or tenant brought in a licensee and while they had a bed to sleep in, they did not retain the right or expectation that the tenant could not enter or utilise the room they were renting. If they applied for part 4 rights, the landlord would be required to have the existing tenant prove the non exclusive use of the property for the prospective tenant.

I think the RTB distinguishes heavily between a house owner with a live in tenant versus a tenant in a sub-let style arrangement. I would guess its a assumption that a person living in your property couldn't never acquire exclusive use of any part of it. But they don't seem to view a tenant with a existing agreement as having the same ownership rights.
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