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Can mother in law sell her house

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  • 16-06-2019 6:34pm
    #1
    shamrock55
    Registered Users Posts: 7,208 ✭✭✭


    My father in law has dementia and both him and my mother in law don't have a will, I don't think he can make one now because of his condition. He's going to need to be put into care. They have payed their mortgage and now the thing is the house will be used to pay for his care in a care home, thing is my sister in law lives at home and helps with care currently, my mother in law wants to sell her the house cheaply thus leaving them with no assets and therefore entitling her husband to free care.
    Can she sell the property without his approval, he can't give it obviously because of his dementia, is there a way around this, please any help or advice is much appreciated, she is affraid they are going to lose the house they spent their lives paying for for a few years of a care home


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    #2
    longgonesilver
    Registered Users Posts: 734 ✭✭✭longgonesilver


    Whose name is on the deeds?


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    #3
    wench
    Registered Users Posts: 1,630 ✭✭✭wench


    Even if she could, any assets disposed of in the 5 years before needing care will be counted against the means test.
    And selling for significantly less than market value won't help, as I believe they can assess the full value as being received, to avoid schemes such as she is proposing.


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    #4
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users Posts: 9,773 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    This really needs a trip to the solicitor and perhaps some financial advice.

    As a general remark (not advice) just selling a house doesn't mean you have no assets. It just means that you have cash assets instead of property assets. Trying to circumvent the system by selling assets is a very bad thing to do (again, this is not advice or an observation on your situation, just a general remark) and could cause a lot of trouble which would be better avoided.

    The situation is probably not as bad as it seems.

    It is very likely that it will be possible to hold the asset for your in-laws to live in until your father in law has died, and then pay whatever is due. Your sister in law might then be in a position to pay this from savings, or get a loan.


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    #5
    longgonesilver
    Registered Users Posts: 734 ✭✭✭longgonesilver


    She won't loose the house ,nor will he get free care. All income will be ascessed, and then devided by two. 80% of this will go to the home. Likewise all assets will be assessed, halved and an allowance of 36000 for reasonable savings is deducted and 7.5% of this will go towards his care every year. The family home is treated differently, it is valued, halved and 7.5% is paid but only for three years.
    So he will pay 80% of his income, 21.5% of his share of the family home(if he survives more than three years) and 7.5% of his share of the assets.


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    #6
    longgonesilver
    Registered Users Posts: 734 ✭✭✭longgonesilver


    If his wife could sell the house they would be in a worse place financially, as they would loose the three year cap.


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    #7
    whippet
    Registered Users Posts: 7,668 ✭✭✭whippet


    I’m going through a similar situation and all advise and calculations point towards the fair deal .. it makes sense.

    Fortunately our family agree that our parents worked hard to pay for the family home and it’s only right and proper that it then pays for their comfort and happiness in their last years


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    #8
    shamrock55
    Registered Users Posts: 7,208 ✭✭✭shamrock55


    Thanks for the reply, a trip to a solicitor is definitely needed


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    #9
    splinter65
    Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    shamrock55 wrote: »
    My father in law has dementia and both him and my mother in law don't have a will, I don't think he can make one now because of his condition. He's going to need to be put into care. They have payed their mortgage and now the thing is the house will be used to pay for his care in a care home, thing is my sister in law lives at home and helps with care currently, my mother in law wants to sell her the house cheaply thus leaving them with no assets and therefore entitling her husband to free care.
    Can she sell the property without his approval, he can't give it obviously because of his dementia, is there a way around this, please any help or advice is much appreciated, she is affraid they are going to lose the house they spent their lives paying for for a few years of a care home

    Every single bit of this is totally and completely wrong wrong wrong. It’s terrifying for me that you or you MIL would even suggest that this is a good idea.
    Please please please organize for your MIL to talk to the Public health nurse attached to your FIL and don’t even consider putting the house on the market until you are completely informed about the Fair Deal.


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    #10
    Cakerbaker
    Registered Users Posts: 850 ✭✭✭Cakerbaker


    Article on this topic in today’s Irish times. https://www.irishtimes.com/business/personal-finance/fair-deal-for-family-on-proceeds-of-house-sale-1.3928183?mode=amp


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    #11
    shamrock55
    Registered Users Posts: 7,208 ✭✭✭shamrock55


    Cakerbaker wrote: »
    Article on this topic in today’s Irish times. https://www.irishtimes.com/business/personal-finance/fair-deal-for-family-on-proceeds-of-house-sale-1.3928183?mode=amp

    Thanks for this


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    #12
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,247 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Is the mother-in-law trying to disinherit the other children?


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    #13
    bleary
    Registered Users Posts: 495 ✭✭bleary


    Also the sister in law may be entitlled to inherit the house tax free under the dwelling house exemption if she meets the terms of that.
    The plan proposed by the mil would be the most disadvantageous approach she could take.
    even if there is a delay in fair deal approval the children could agree to pay the current fees and then claim tax relief on those payments,
    possibly an accountant might be best placed to advise


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    #14
    shamrock55
    Registered Users Posts: 7,208 ✭✭✭shamrock55


    Victor wrote: »
    Is the mother-in-law trying to disinherit the other children?

    No, tbh the others only want what's best for the father and if that means using the house as payment then so be it


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    #15
    whippet
    Registered Users Posts: 7,668 ✭✭✭whippet


    shamrock55 wrote: »
    No, tbh the others only want what's best for the father and if that means using the house as payment then so be it

    You will only be using max 21% of the value of the house for paying for the care. In the mean time the issue is with what happens to the house while he is incare.

    If the house is rented out .. to anyone .. 80% of this income will be used to pay for the nursing home under fair deal .. but tax will be due on the entire rental income .. in other words it will cost you to rent the house out.

    However .. if you choose to liquidate the asset (which isn’t possible as the owner can not give consent legally) .. you will end up having to use the proceeds to pay for nursing home care .. and at approx €5k per month this won’t last long


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    #16
    shamrock55
    Registered Users Posts: 7,208 ✭✭✭shamrock55


    whippet wrote: »
    You will only be using max 21% of the value of the house for paying for the care. In the mean time the issue is with what happens to the house while he is incare.

    If the house is rented out .. to anyone .. 80% of this income will be used to pay for the nursing home under fair deal .. but tax will be due on the entire rental income .. in other words it will cost you to rent the house out.

    However .. if you choose to liquidate the asset (which isn’t possible as the owner can not give consent legally) .. you will end up having to use the proceeds to pay for nursing home care .. and at approx €5k per month this won’t last long

    So max 21% of value of house plus 80% of half they're combined income would that be right, and mother in law can still live in the house also, what happens if he is in a home for 5/6 yrs and funds from house become exhausted, what happens to the house and care home payments then


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    #17
    Spook_ie
    Registered Users Posts: 10,896 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    As a couple the % and allowances are different

    https://www2.hse.ie/services/fair-deal-scheme/financial-assessment-your-payment-towards-care.html

    Assets 3.75%
    Income 40%
    Exclusion 72k

    One thing to consider though is what happens when/if your MiL requires care later in life, maybe check if there is a possibility of a sheltered housing that would allow them to both move in or some other amicable arrangement.


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    #18
    whippet
    Registered Users Posts: 7,668 ✭✭✭whippet


    shamrock55 wrote: »
    So max 21% of value of house plus 80% of half they're combined income would that be right, and mother in law can still live in the house also, what happens if he is in a home for 5/6 yrs and funds from house become exhausted, what happens to the house and care home payments then

    mother in law can still reside in the house - that is the typical situation envisioned when the fair deal was drafted.

    Funds from the house will never exhaust - the max they can take is 21% or total government contribution which ever is less. And this only becomes payable when the asset is disposed of.

    it is 7% per annum for three years .. regardless of how long they are in state care.

    Should the situation arise where the spouse also needs residential care ... the contribution will increase from income (pension etc) to 80% combined and the lean on the property will stay the same.

    I have been down this route and looked at a load of different options and from speaking to solicitors and accountants and people who have been through the process before ... in all discussions fair deal was the only viable option.

    my mother for example .. we paid privately for about 6 months while we sorted some other stuff out and at €5.5k per month there was only so long this could be sustained considering she could be alive for the next 15-20 years!


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    #19
    galvo_clare
    Registered Users Posts: 668 ✭✭✭galvo_clare


    Couldn’t agree more.
    I arranged for a team of carers for my parents in their own home because that’s what they wanted. I would have been prepared to use everything up if necessary because they worked hard all their lives and it was their money. What better way to use it than looking after them in their last years.

    My aunt had dementia in her final years so a nursing home was the only realistic option. I looked at the fair deal but in the end we got a subvention which partially paid her nursing home every month. We had to pay the balance but there was cash to meet it and I think it worked out better in the end. Might be worth checking that out but I doubt the deal would be as generous now even if it’s on offer.
    whippet wrote: »
    I’m going through a similar situation and all advise and calculations point towards the fair deal .. it makes sense.

    Fortunately our family agree that our parents worked hard to pay for the family home and it’s only right and proper that it then pays for their comfort and happiness in their last years


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