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The just man always comes off worst than the unjust ; discuss

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  • 11-06-2019 4:21pm
    #1
    stabeek
    Registered Users Posts: 142 ✭✭


    Hi,

    Non urgent and reflective matter:

    with ref. to Mueller report over there in the US, there's an article (link below) by Tom MacCarthy verbalising a phenomenon that occurs, not I believe in this isolated case, but more generally. I submit it here and kindly ask if anybody has more references to it and perhaps a word or set of terminology for it:

    "The principled are chained, and the unprincipled romp free. And in a debate over reality, the unprincipled will always win, because they will just lie, and they will make reality whatever they want it to be.”

    i.e. law must work within the law's own reference set, but anti-law or criminality does not have to, and therefore may be predisposed to "win".

    Cheers.

    Link: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jun/11/robert-mueller-trump-russia-investigation


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    #2
    Grolschevik
    Registered Users Posts: 3,472 ✭✭✭Grolschevik


    Non-legal, and tangential yet related: Thrasymachus v Socrates in Book 1 of Plato's Republic.


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    #3
    stabeek
    Registered Users Posts: 142 ✭✭stabeek


    thanks Grolschevik, will consult.


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    #4
    Mr. Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 9,798 ✭✭✭Mr. Incognito


    The problem is that the media is privatised and whoever owns it controls the information that is disseminated.

    Twitter is unfiltered and allows the orange idiot spout whatever lies he wants.


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    #5
    nuac
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,769 Mod ✭✭✭✭nuac


    Searching my library for Plato's various works. The actual books are small and easily lost
    Interesting idea, but can anyone come up with a snappier title within the terms of legal discussion?


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    #6
    Grolschevik
    Registered Users Posts: 3,472 ✭✭✭Grolschevik


    nuac wrote: »
    Searching my library for Plato's various works. The actual books are small and easily lost
    Interesting idea, but can anyone come up with a snappier title within the terms of legal discussion?

    '"Justice" is merely that which is in the interest of the strongest'?

    Edit: No, that's just an old essay title.

    Further edit: "The just man always comes off worse than the unjust"

    (Thrasymachus, Book 1, Plato's Republic, p85 Lee's translation in Penguin Classics; traditional reference 343d).


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    #7
    nuac
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,769 Mod ✭✭✭✭nuac


    Thanks, Grol. Will go with that.


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    #8
    nuac
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,769 Mod ✭✭✭✭nuac


    Mod
    Amended title
    The just man always comes off worst than the unjust
    With thanks to Grolshevik for his classical erudition
    Eucharistó para polu


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    #9
    stabeek
    Registered Users Posts: 142 ✭✭stabeek


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWa3LyvFOdc


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    #10
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    The premise needs qualifying; what does "come off worst" mean? In real terms being just rather than unjust is deeply fully more fulfilling than eg lying your way in life so in fact and truth the just come off best.

    Thank you! This has elucidated a situation I am in and resolved my feelings!


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    #11
    stabeek
    Registered Users Posts: 142 ✭✭stabeek


    Graces7 wrote: »
    The premise needs qualifying; what does "come off worst" mean? In real terms being just rather than unjust is deeply fully more fulfilling than eg lying your way in life so in fact and truth the just come off best.

    Yes, I think it means to come off worst purely materialistically. I also suspect it has a time limit too, as we can expect the unjust to show a good of short-termism though such concerns will be absent from their triumphalism. In any case, the unjust probably have a poor memory too.

    Nevertheless, despite your valid point and all it's limitations, the unjust triumphalism can be stinging to the just person. I dare say it scars him/her, it must, though they can use Stoicism to deny it.


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    #12
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    stabeek wrote: »
    Yes, I think it means to come off worst purely materialistically. I also suspect it has a time limit too, as we can expect the unjust to show a good of short-termism though such concerns will be absent from their triumphalism. In any case, the unjust probably have a poor memory too.

    Nevertheless, despite your valid point and all it's limitations, the unjust triumphalism can be stinging to the just person. I dare say it scars him/her, it must, though they can use Stoicism to deny it.


    Three years ago I would have agreed with you but I have changed and yes, grown. no stinging or scarring and no stoicism. I see that the unjust one is very ill at ease whereas I am at peace.

    I have learned too to just walk on and say as little as possible . drives them nuts! Their victory as you say is short lived and bitter. like drinking salt water it leads to greater thirst


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