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Semi-animated comics - future of the medium?

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    #62
    livingtargets
    Closed Accounts Posts: 165 ✭✭livingtargets


    I`m no good in a discussion about manga as i`ve never read more than ten issues of what could be called manga so I`m staying out of that one,but one thing I will say is that manga far outweighs the "big two" in bookstores.One thing about people who have a passing interest in comics is that they want an enjoyable story and good value(which is why it`s a brilliant idea to have those "mammoth book of ... comics" out.they always have a lot of good stuff like Eisner alongside newer stuff like Charles Burns and all for a good price without sacrificing paper quality.don`t know how they manage that though...)

    but back to the subject,a lot of artists like Will Eisner`s and Paul Grist`s (and every other artist who`s used the layout of a traditional page to full advantage)stuff would be ruined in animated format.Equally well,I can see how some of Jack Kirby`s more dramatic stuff could be done well that way,but it would have to be done tastefully.


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    #63
    corkstudent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 473 ✭✭corkstudent


    Wow, that's....that's certainly the most unique opinion I've read on what comics should aim for in the future. As printing and reproduction techniques (not to mention access to internet services) move ever forward to allow for more artistic freedom, you're arguing for comics to go back to using crappier materials? Yes, it would be nice if they were cheaper, but making them look crappier is the worst possible way of making them cheaper because it'll also eliminate potential target audience, and no publisher in the world is going to go along with that.

    But for years people were perfectly happy with it. And comics sales have gone DOWN since switchin to the better paper.

    It doesn't mean they'll look "****ty", not everyone likes the gloss anyway. "Looking worse" is somewhat subjective. A return to how comics used to look in the 70s and 80s would be welcome. That way ****ty comics wouldn't be able to hide behind fancy artwork.


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    #64
    Fysh
    Moderators, Arts Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 11,016 Mod ✭✭✭✭Fysh


    corkstudent wrote: »
    But for years people were perfectly happy with it. And comics sales have gone DOWN since switchin to the better paper.

    It doesn't mean they'll look "****ty", not everyone likes the gloss anyway. "Looking worse" is somewhat subjective. A return to how comics used to look in the 70s and 80s would be welcome. That way ****ty comics wouldn't be able to hide behind fancy artwork.

    People were happy with a life expectancy of 40 years 100 years ago, it doesn't mean that you get rid of modern medicine.

    Any medium that relies either entirely or partially on a visual aspect is going to strive for ever-improving quality of presentation material and a refinement of artistic styles. You say that people like how comics looked in the '70s and '80s and would welcome a return to that, but I don't think this is the case - certainly not across the board. I'm not saying there weren't great comics back then, but anytime I read a comic from back then I find I enjoy it less because I've come to expect the colour palettes and refinement that became common in the mid-nineties. Take Swamp Thing for example, I've been put off reading it for years because despite the fact that Alan Moore had a significant run on it because the artwork, good though it is, looks sub-par in terms of what I'm accustomed to now. The same thing happens with films that used CGI in the early 90s - you watch them now and the then-cutting-edge special effects look horrendously dated because you've seen what's been developed since then.

    There've always been crap comics hiding behind the artwork, and there've also always been great comics with crap artwork. Stating that going back to the inferior reproduction techniques used for comics in the 70s and 80s will "stop bad comics hiding behind the artwork" is daft, because:

    a) it won't, it's just that the artwork won't be as good (and frankly I suspect it's not a case of people not realising the comic was bad because of the art quality so much as not caring the comic was bad because the art is good, which are two different things entirely),
    b) what about those comics with already-pedestrian art but great writing? They'll be unchanged, but somehow the fact that the artistic ceiling will make them better in your eyes. How, exactly, would this work?

    All of which assumes, of course, that Marvel, DC et all have any interest in going back to cheaply-reproduced, lower-priced comics (I seriously doubt they do, because that would not only lower their margins but also probably drive off at least some of the talent currently involved due to the drop in page rates commesurate with dropping profit margins) and have the option of realistically doing so (I have no idea how feasible this is, but again from a printer's perspective there are better margins in printing full-colour jobs with glossy/matte/whatever decent paper type you care to name than in printing 4-colour comics on newsprint-quality paper so even if it's physically possible I imagine that contractually it'd be a nightmare to put in place).


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    #65
    ztoical
    Registered Users Posts: 4,788 ✭✭✭ztoical


    corkstudent wrote: »
    That way ****ty comics wouldn't be able to hide behind fancy artwork.

    sh!tty artwork looks sh!tty regardless of the paper stock, the only thing that might might change is that you can't print the same number of colours on newsprint as on a higher grade paper stock which would put some of the big publishers advertisers off as they pay for big glossy ads not newspaper grade ads and those advertisers are a huge source of cash for publishers.

    Towards the end of the 90's Marvel got rid of the super glossy paper in favor of a cheaper matt paper stock and loads of people threw fits - writing in demanding Marvel go back to the gloss paper so I don't think you can say a return to newsprint would be welcomed.


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    #66
    BlaasForRafa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭BlaasForRafa


    corkstudent wrote: »
    But for years people were perfectly happy with it. And comics sales have gone DOWN since switchin to the better paper.

    It doesn't mean they'll look "****ty", not everyone likes the gloss anyway. "Looking worse" is somewhat subjective. A return to how comics used to look in the 70s and 80s would be welcome. That way ****ty comics wouldn't be able to hide behind fancy artwork.

    you weren't the one giving away hundreds of late 80's/early 90's comics to oxfam and chucking hundreds more in the recycle bin a couple of weeks ago. And these weren't poor titles, mostly batman, detective comics, punisher, xfactor, jla, jle....no point in keeping them as the paper quality made them look terrible.

    If they went back to newsprint I'd give up comics in a heartbeat. Good comics deserve to be presented well.


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    #67
    corkstudent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 473 ✭✭corkstudent


    People were happy with a life expectancy of 40 years 100 years ago, it doesn't mean that you get rid of modern medicine.

    People weren't happy with that life expectancy like they aren't happy with the current life expectancy now. People have always wanted to live for longer.

    Whereas there was no great demand for silky looking comics. I think the people who have an issue with it are being artsy snobs.You can't have affordable comics and great quality paper, and it should be obvious which is more needed.


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    #68
    livingtargets
    Closed Accounts Posts: 165 ✭✭livingtargets


    corkstudent wrote: »
    People weren't happy with that life expectancy like they aren't happy with the current life expectancy now. People have always wanted to live for longer.

    Whereas there was no great demand for silky looking comics. I think the people who have an issue with it are being artsy snobs.You can't have affordable comics and great quality paper, and it should be obvious which is more needed.

    well first of all,Kyle was just using an example(at least I think he was,I don`t want to be putting words in his mouth or anything)to show that going backwards isn`t going to help anyone.it`s irrelevent how long people want to live.

    And glossy comics are affordable.just not here.look at the price on the cover in dollors.$3.99 should only be about 2.50(if even) over here.
    Also,"artsy snobs"?because we want comics to look as good and last as long as they can?Toilet paper is affordable as well.will we use that instead?


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    #69
    Fysh
    Moderators, Arts Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 11,016 Mod ✭✭✭✭Fysh


    corkstudent wrote: »
    People weren't happy with that life expectancy like they aren't happy with the current life expectancy now. People have always wanted to live for longer.

    Whereas there was no great demand for silky looking comics. I think the people who have an issue with it are being artsy snobs.You can't have affordable comics and great quality paper, and it should be obvious which is more needed.

    Regarding life expectancy, I was trying to make an example about how people put up with what's perceived to be the current standard, but that when standards shift what was once acceptable may easily become unacceptable.

    Regarding the demand or otherwise for silky-looking comics - if the companies involved changed their business processes to create better-looking comics, you can be pretty damn sure they figured there was a demand for them. Which highlights a more important point:

    Comics publishers are in this to make money. In a capitalist environment, every business is looking to optimise the profit made for a given level of costs.
    The fact that you want cheaper comics and are willing to sacrifice their quality to get them doesn't mean that it's a viable business model, and frankly the fact that not one comic publisher is putting out new comics at the quality and price point you suggest says to me that the potential returns involved aren't worth the risk. There's no obligation involved in capitalist commercial transactions; the seller doesn't have to give you what you want, and you don't have to buy the product. Don't like the price? Don't buy it. Don't like the product? Don't buy it. Similarly, unable to make a return from a given product? Don't sell it.

    To put it succinctly - the fact that you want to buy cheap, low-quality comics does not mean that anyone in publishing is required to give a damn.


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    #70
    corkstudent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 473 ✭✭corkstudent


    if the companies involved changed their business processes to create better-looking comics, you can be pretty damn sure they figured there was a demand for them. Which highlights a more important point:

    Comics publishers are in this to make money. In a capitalist environment, every business is looking to optimise the profit made for a given level of costs.

    Uhh, I'm sorry but you have an insanely naive view of the comic book industry. The fact is the industry as of a whole performs poorly compared to the 80s and before, relying on ridiculous crossovers(which draw in one market but chase away another) and movies to draw anyone at all. Comic book movies are huge, but comic books are not. And comic book movies don't have an awful lot to do with Marvel or DC, even the ones being made "in house" are still mostly leased out to people who normally wouldn't be making the same decisions.

    I've noticed comic book shops in general disappearing - the one in Limerick is pretty much gone, and the one in Cork downsized somewhat.

    The reason being that they are making plenty of decisions that AREN'T making money. Just look at the handling of just about every Marvel property. And you tell me the same kind of people behind this know the best medium to represent their comics?

    Just because every business is looking to "optimise" doesn't mean they're succeeding. No offense, but you sound like someone who's just come out of pointlessly arguing with some socalist students as to how Norway will collapse next week. Capitalism doesn't suddenly make everyone more competent. The fact is once a company makes a bit of money like Marvel does, they'll get overconfident and snotty and not realise how much better they could do for themselves and their fans. Not to mention that you have egomaniacs who care more about implanting their ideas in your head than anything else, like Brand New Day.

    Another example is Hasbro - where people use the same retarded arguments to defend their decisions. But they killed the Marvel Legends line through bad business, bad marketing and don't forget, again, Marvel, made the decision to go with Hasbro(who offered more money, but haven't been worth it as without having Marvel Legends advertising the more obscure characters on the shelves, it's harder for Marvel to generate interest in the expanded universe, not to mention further pissing off fans).

    Maybe silky comics are the way to keep things - but it has nothing to do with DC or Marvel or Diamond's competency as companies. Hasbro are ****ing incompetent and most major comic comapnies are ****ing incompetent. This is a matter of fact.


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    #71
    Fysh
    Moderators, Arts Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 11,016 Mod ✭✭✭✭Fysh


    Corkstudent, I'm not sure you realise this but there are very slim chances of you actually being taken seriously, for the following reasons:

    1) You've claimed there would be increased sales of comics if the quality of the product was dropped and the price reduced, without pointing out any current title that has done this and increased its sales accordingly. Saying that 20 years ago comics were cheaper and sold more is not a valid argument; 20 years ago everything was commesurately cheaper than it is today. 20 years ago people also had commesurately less money in their pockets. It's called inflation.

    2) You, Joe Nobody From Internet Land, are claiming to have more business knowledge than the people running publishing houses. This makes you suspect. The people running Marvel, DC, et all are not responsible for making great comics (no matter what they may say to the contrary) - they are primarily responsible for keeping the company profitable. If that means mediocre comics half the time, event comics on a yearly basis, or crossovers up the wazoo - that's what they'll do. With no better metrics to go on, they'll look at what's done well before and try to replicate it in a new way that the audience may respond to. Now, there's no guarantee that individually any of these people are any good, but frankly if the likes of Marvel and DC aren't considering it then it means nobody's convinced the beancounters, which means there's no money to be made.

    3) You appear to be confusing what you want (cheaper comics) with what's good for the industry. It's nice that you think that analysing the comics industry from a financial perspective is in some way "naive" but if anyone posting in this thread is naive, it's you. You are the only poster to have suggested that the industry as a whole would benefit from shifting back to inferior materials, and yet you seem to be suggesting that it's the rest of us money-spending comics readers who are somehow wrong.

    4) There's a lolcat with the text "It are fact, I know it because of my learnings" which is as much response as any statement of fact that cannot be backed up with actual evidence demands. The pronouncement of Joe Nobodies from Internet Land tend not to be taken seriously in the likes of board meetings and financial reviews, so you may well find yourself spraying spittle at your monitor for years to come while raging furiously at the alleged incompetence of all those companies that kept trying to, you know, make a profit instead of just blindly following what you suggested they do.


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    #72
    ztoical
    Registered Users Posts: 4,788 ✭✭✭ztoical


    corkstudent wrote: »
    Uhh, I'm sorry but you have an insanely naive view of the comic book industry. The fact is the industry as of a whole performs poorly compared to the 80s and before, relying on ridiculous crossovers(which draw in one market but chase away another) and movies to draw anyone at all. Comic book movies are huge, but comic books are not. .

    You might think Fysh is navie [which he's not] but I say you are incredibly navie and narrow minded on your view of the industry. Superhero comics might have seen sales decline but other areas have seen a massive jump - look at the likes of Vertigo. None comic book publishers like Random house have been putting out books like the flight anthologies and graphic novels by the likes of Hope Larson that have sold amazingly well in book stores. Scholastic has printed graphic novel versions of some their big childrens books like goosebumps and the baby sitters club that have been big hits. Books by Craig Thomson, Eric Drooker, Gary Panter, Petre Kuper, Marjane Satrapi, Alison Bechdel, etc etc all top sellers both with comic fans and outside of comics. Top Shelf only started 10 years ago and their sales have been strong, fantagraphics, first second, Ad house, Oni, SLG, all doing pretty well the last 10 years. We have more selection and variety in comics today then we've ever had.
    corkstudent wrote: »
    I've noticed comic book shops in general disappearing - the one in Limerick is pretty much gone, and the one in Cork downsized somewhat.

    thats comic shops in ireland and I hate to break it to you but publishers like Marvel and DC are not going to really care about comic sales in such a small market. We've already covered this in other threads but there are loads of reasons that comics shops in ireland are seeing less business other then fewer people buying comics. More and more people are picking up the collected trades over the monthly comics, more people are buying online with the likes of play.com where they get free shipping. Only two shops in the whole country actually order from Diamond [sub city and Forbidden planet] the mini orders are too high for others shops and as such the stock they carry is pretty limited.


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    #73
    livingtargets
    Closed Accounts Posts: 165 ✭✭livingtargets


    corkstudent wrote: »
    Uhh, I'm sorry but you have an insanely naive view of the comic book industry.

    oh yeah,I forgot that the theories of capitalism and basic economics are naive
    compared to "if it costs less to make,they`ll sell it for less".Thanks for reminding us.


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    #74
    magwea
    Closed Accounts Posts: 173 ✭✭magwea


    Expensive print is certainly not an integral part of the comic industry, and does not deserves to be defended, certainly not by readers who enjoy simply reading comics.


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    #75
    Fysh
    Moderators, Arts Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 11,016 Mod ✭✭✭✭Fysh


    magwea wrote: »
    Expensive print is certainly not an integral part of the comic industry, and does not deserves to be defended, certainly not by readers who enjoy simply reading comics.

    Frankly, no quality of print is integral to the industry - publishers will use what they feel is best suited to their intentions from the available technology. Nobody's holding a gun to reader's heads and making them buy these things, but conversely no publisher owes any comics reader anything either, and there's a baffling sense of righteous entitlement underlying corkstudent's posts which just makes their lack of coherent argument all the more glaring.

    Consider small press comics - often cheaply printed, often black and white, often on cheap paper. Almost always cheaper than mainstream comics. And yet as almost anyone I've met whose involved in small press comics has told me, there's no money in it. At best they'll help you make a name for yourself which will then land you graphic design/illustration work, but that's still not making a living from the comics themselves.

    Obviously, part of the problem small press comics have is that they don't have access to the kind of money and distribution network the big publishers do. But then again, given the image-recognition that the top-tier comics characters have (and I don't just mean Superman and Spider-man, I'm thinking the likes of Tin-tin, Asterix, Dragon Ball and Astro Boy here as well), if there was a way to make money out of them on cheaply-made black and white comics someone would be doing it. If Marvel can profitably licence Spider-man's image to be on lunchboxes, schoolbags and kids' shoes, then it means there's probably someone employed by them whose job is to figure out as many ways of making money from the characters as possible. Let's not forget, this is how they came back from the brink of bankruptcy a decade ago. So if in that time nobody's suggested cheap black & white comics, it's either because they don't think there's an audience for it or they're not interested in the potential profit margins. DC's owned by Time Warner, who if anything will have even more beancounters looking at how to get money from their established properties. I'm not saying that this is how they should operate, or that it's a good thing - I'm just saying that this is a simplified version of the kind of thinking that's probably going on.


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    #76
    Fysh
    Moderators, Arts Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 11,016 Mod ✭✭✭✭Fysh


    More news regarding Motion Comics - according to comments here, Mark Millar's "Superman: Red Son" will be made into a motion comic alongside various other DC properties.

    It's not like there aren't fans making these things already - there are two Kick-Ass animations that I've seen around, it looks like someone's done several animations based on the Dead Space comic, and a quick search on youtube shows several pages more of similar videos.

    At the same time, what fans make and enjoy isn't necessarily something that the market will accept or even be willing to pay money for. Either Motion Comics are an expensive promotional tool (in which case I question the whole idea, because a promotional material whose entire basis is to change the medium of the product it promotes is risky at best) or it's a new medium with its own merits, in which case it needs original content specifically created for it, or in the case of animations the collaboration of the original artist/s to ensure that the animations look good enough to be worth having.


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    #77
    magwea
    Closed Accounts Posts: 173 ✭✭magwea


    There is N Stephan king's next comic which premiered as a motion comic and will only be serialized on the web before the print collected edition. No doubt this is the expensive marketing Fysh was talking about in this case the comic itself and the animation seem to be interlinked far greater.


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    #78
    Fysh
    Moderators, Arts Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 11,016 Mod ✭✭✭✭Fysh


    Interesting - I'd heard that King was doing an unspecified project with Marvel but didn't realise it was going to be web-distributed beforehand. I will have to have a proper look at it when I go home, but it sounds like it might be a better contender for showing off what you can do well with Motion Comics, or at least establish a precedent for a workable business model...


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    #79
    Fysh
    Moderators, Arts Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 11,016 Mod ✭✭✭✭Fysh


    Thought I'd post having now watched all 25 episodes of N. I must admit I was somewhat disappointed - the episodes themselves were well-enough put together, but there was very little to show off what you could do with motion comics. It occurs to me that they're probably trying to keep them simple to try and create a new audience out of mobile phone users, but we'll see whether that works out.


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    #80
    magwea
    Closed Accounts Posts: 173 ✭✭magwea


    The Chide, found via the quickly ganked spam post, is worth mentioning. As far as i can tell it was made by some Italian new age design studio; so expect horribly stilted dialogue and wanky propaganda. The site sells itself as a "multimedia opera creation" although it is no more than a well crafted fumetti. Of note is the great flash reading interface, a great Ben Templesmith like colour palate, and great use of limited animation for word balloons and small atmospheric scene features like fog and wind. I haven't finished reading it entirely, but it seems to be let down by dodgy translation and cliched pulp dialogue but as a motion comic itself it is very accomplished and though out.


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    #81
    magwea
    Closed Accounts Posts: 173 ✭✭magwea


    Thought this was a fairly cool way of mashing up comic tropes and limited animation, and of course it helps that the song is a dozy.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewc1hixzYPY


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    #82
    Fysh
    Moderators, Arts Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 11,016 Mod ✭✭✭✭Fysh


    Interesting video, I like the drawing style. Reminded me of Comix Zone with its repeated panel breaks.


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    #83
    magwea
    Closed Accounts Posts: 173 ✭✭magwea


    I can remember hearing about this ages ago and then promptly forgetting about it.

    Bit of gameplay for those others who are unfamiliar.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwITPy-2uh4


    Thought this was fairly neat as well, though it would neccessitate drawing everything in 3D and the fact that it has very little to do with comics other then a noir style similar to sin city's. Might work well for something that uses moslty splash pages. I'm no animatator but i always thought that putting things into motion was the hardest and most expensive part of animating.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c12Wd2mY_zQ


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    #84
    Fysh
    Moderators, Arts Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 11,016 Mod ✭✭✭✭Fysh


    That Sinema video was gorgeous stuff magwea, thanks for posting it.

    On another note, I found this recently, which is probably the simplest example of a digital comics engine I've seen while avoiding the whole genre-dilution issues that motion comics seem to have...


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    #85
    magwea
    Closed Accounts Posts: 173 ✭✭magwea


    That's badass, we -I- need more comics like that, and for it to show up on deviant art of all places. So good, where did you find it?


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    #86
    Fysh
    Moderators, Arts Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 11,016 Mod ✭✭✭✭Fysh


    magwea wrote: »
    That's badass, we -I- need more comics like that, and for it to show up on deviant art of all places. So good, where did you find it?
    Adam Murray linked to it on a thread in Millarworld. It single-handedly (postedly?) made the thread worth reading.


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    #87
    Fysh
    Moderators, Arts Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 11,016 Mod ✭✭✭✭Fysh


    A couple of updates on the whole "motion comics" front:

    I found this motion comic of Penny Arcade's recent "Automata" experiment, and quite liked it. Not the most amazing thing ever, but quite nicely done, particularly the music.

    On the other hand, we've got the Spider-Woman motion comic out now, alongside the Watchmen motion comic. Both of which appear to have given centre stage to awful looking half-animation, crap casting, and crap voice acting. The best thing being, of course, that they expect people to pony up cold hard cash for this rubbish rather than just reading the comics. *sigh*


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    #88
    Fysh
    Moderators, Arts Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 11,016 Mod ✭✭✭✭Fysh


    I just saw this news story on BleedingCool about Spider-Woman: Agent Of Sword motion comic episode 1 being freely available for a short time.

    Good lord, that was crap. I'm not particularly a fan of Bendis from what I've seen of him anyway, but the notion of expecting people to not only pay for that but become fans of a format that's basically a throwback to the state of animation 50 years ago is just ridiculous.


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    #89
    Fysh
    Moderators, Arts Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 11,016 Mod ✭✭✭✭Fysh


    Can't remember if it's already been posted in-thread, but I just stumbled across this Metal Gear Solid motion comic:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scp1XOIfnwI


    Certainly better than that Spider-Woman crap, at any rate...


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    #90
    cjworkshop
    Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭cjworkshop


    Obscurity_Chapter_One_Poster.jpg

    About : Obscurity is a Half Life 2 Graphic Animation Novel that is released in chapters. The main story revolves around a man named Daniel Harries. He is haunted by his trajic past and tries to make sense of it all through the use of his dream journal. Each chapter aims to slot pieces of the plot together to reveal a deep and disturbing storyline mixed with action, romance and drama. It has been in production for about 6 months and is the biggest project i have ever taken.

    Chapter One Trailer
    Chapter One My Real Heroic Dream Part 1
    Chapter One My Real Heroic Dream Part 2

    Chapter 2 Trailer
    Chapter 2 Deadly Odds Part 1
    Chapter 2 Deadly Odds Part 2

    You can get more info on the series at CJWorkshop.co.uk

    Fysh sez:

    Moving & pruning this thread as it's a bit to shilltastic at present. Merging with other discussions about motion comics.

    Sheehy83, if you want advice on making comics have a look at the Comic Production forum. There's lots of useful information there.


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    #91
    Zero-Cool
    Registered Users Posts: 29,510 ✭✭✭✭Zero-Cool


    WOW that looks class man!!! Fair play to ya! can't watch it properly in work but will give it a good look see at home. Did you need to get permission off Valve for the half life stuff? Like a mix between Half Life and Heavy Rain. I wish this was a game haha

    I wanted to make a graphic novel, looking for computer software I could use, templates for comic pages and the like. (Just for still images, no fancy animation like yours :D) Do you have any ideas on what software I could use?


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