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Is the Irish Navy a disgrace?

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    #92
    wexandproud
    Registered Users Posts: 1,063 ✭✭✭wexandproud


    malinheader wrote: »
    Does anyone know the reason why the voisnage agreement was scrapped by the supreme court..
    The amount of hassle and aggro this is going to stir up is going to be a disaster in my opinion for a lot of fishermen on both sides.
    i do , and its complicated . but basically the agreement was written between civil servants to allow northern ireland owned and operated vessels to come south mainly to fish herring off dunmore east . it did however allow other fisheries to take place inside our exclusive fishing waters .
    some owners of welsh based vessels started to come here to fish . this was not covered by the agreement as they were not northern ireland owned and operated here so a group of boat owners challenged the agreement and after years of court cases they won the case
    Basically , the judge said , because the agreement was never written into law the boats were not fishing legally . the agreement has never been challenged in the north so southern boats can go north .
    when the agreement was in place an irish boat went to the south coast of england to fish and he was arrested but later released but told not to return as the agreement only covered N/Irl waters and not uk waters in general.
    This was all done and dusted in court long and ever before brexit was voted on , the whole thing has been going on for years .
    Its very strange that brexit was mentioned in the news report and also the fact that one boat owner was catholic and one protestant . I would not be at all surprised if this was a tactical move to get the whole thing back to court as there was a promise to legalize some sort of agreement and reinstate some sort of law which would all dual access . The minister backed down due to pressure from various fishing organisations


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    #93
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 28,165 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Dale Doback wrote: »
    My point was...donkeykong5 was slating the Naval Service, so I countered that with asking him the question of what he has done for humanity.....that was my point and it was pretty clear.
    They sailed under Operation PONTUS which was a humanitarian mission. Thats another one of my points.
    The Naval Service leadership do have a say on what missions they deploy on....they have to, they are the S.M.E's. Its discussed at that level before Govt say yay or nay.
    Are you sure of my points now?

    The naval service wouldn't exist without the taxes paid by the likes of donkeykong5, and all the Irish people who are generating tax revenue through their work. Hard to rescue anyone or arrest anyone if you don't have a ship to sail in. The naval service are the point of a pyramid, the ordinary joe soaps are the rest. If they are sailing on a humanitarian missions, then in a sense, so are the joe soaps.

    Are you seriously suggesting the Irish Naval service decided to sail to the Mediterranean OR arrest these NI fishermen, and then went to the Government to give the OK??? Then no, your point isn't clear.
    I repeat - the government decides what missions the Naval service carries out. The Naval service might be unable to technical reasons etc to carry out a particular mission but the Naval service are not the originators.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #94
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Escorting fishermen out of UK waters.

    Should the question not be “can you imagine if a Royal Navy ship impounded two Irish trawlers?”

    The self righteous meltdown would be huge.


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    #95
    wexandproud
    Registered Users Posts: 1,063 ✭✭✭wexandproud


    malinheader wrote: »
    It was working perfectly fine for over 50 years until it affected a few people who took the case to the courts where the judge scrapped the agreement and it is now going to affect a great many.
    The naval service will have to do there jobs as it's the government - Europe who will call the shots on what action to be taken.
    the norther boys were making a big issue of the navy boarding the boats but irish boats are boarded every day by the uk fisheries patrols and there is never a word about it .
    Couple of guys up your way were at the head of the challange along with a few from down here


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    #96
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    n!ghtmancometh wrote: »
    Only disgrace are people like the OP denigrating the men and women of the naval service who risk life and limb in service of the country and it's citizens, for very little money. Recovering bodies from dangerous water, assisting in search and rescue missions and attempting to patrol Irish waters with the little resources the state affords them. Rescuing human beings from certain death in the med, no matter the political reasons why those human beings are there in the first place.

    Disgraceful thread. This forum has truly gone to the dogs. I'm sure the vitriol from the OP and 'Spanish Eyes' and other usual suspects would not be uttered in the presence of any members of the Naval Service either.

    I agree they are completely under resourced to patrol Irish Waters where they should not in the med. I have no problem with the people in the Navy either it's the politicians whose orders they are following I have a problem with.

    The Irish Navy have no business being in the Med. They are not saving any lives they are facilitating people smugglers. The only authorities that should be there are the Libyan Coastguard to intercept smugglers boats rescue the migrants and repatriate them back to Libya.


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    #97
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »
    Jesus Christ this thread was like a ****ing dog whistle to all the racist freaks in boards.

    What "racist freaks" I didn't know that being against illegal migration is a racist viewpoint


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    #98
    malinheader
    Registered Users Posts: 4,973 ✭✭✭malinheader


    wexandproud wrote: »
    the norther boys were making a big issue of the navy boarding the boats but irish boats are boarded every day by the uk fisheries patrols and there is never a word about it .
    Couple of guys up your way were at the head of the challange along with a few from down here

    Aye all over mussel seed. Its leading to alot of tensions up in these parts, once the arresting starts it won't end nice.
    Aw well at least there is plenty of tonnage in the country for anyone wanting to change over.And win the lottery you might even be able to afford kw s.


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    #99
    expectationlost
    Registered Users Posts: 11,769 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    why hasn't defence forces put out a press release about detention of vessels (in Dundalk Bay) as it normally does http://www.military.ie/en/news-and-events/news/?pageNumber=1


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    #100
    wexandproud
    Registered Users Posts: 1,063 ✭✭✭wexandproud


    malinheader wrote: »
    Aye all over mussel seed. Its leading to alot of tensions up in these parts, once the arresting starts it won't end nice.
    Aw well at least there is plenty of tonnage in the country for anyone wanting to change over.And win the lottery you might even be able to afford kw s.
    yep . i was caught up in the middle of it .
    if i won the lottery kw's be the last thing on my mind


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    #101
    whisky_galore
    Registered Users Posts: 15,826 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    old_aussie wrote: »
    Ireland is neutral.

    So why have a navy in the first place?

    Ireland just needs a coast guard.

    Save a motza and sell off the navy, something that's just there for the "dress-up events".

    We were never really 'neutral' in the strictest sense of the word.

    The naval service is so underfunded and neglected that someone's going to get killed one of these days.


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    #102
    jmayo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,110 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    The Army is the support the Gardai if needed and our contributions to UN and EU mission. They are a great force to deploy in natural disasters and emergencies. I think the DoD makes very mistakes when purchasing comparison to the HSE and other armies. So they do give value for money but we do not look after our soldiers. I am hearing stories of former soldiers ending up on the streets and dealing with substance issues. Soldiers pay was never great but the gratuity and pension made up for it. That has now been slashed.

    All Branches of the defence forces are losing technicians that simply cannot be replaced by calling a recruitment agency. Where are you supposed to get a Petty Officer with 10 year experience of working on a Volvo marine engine? You cant go down to Adecco and buy that experience.

    Last I heard the Government Jet was mothballed in the States and being investigated if it was viable to be either fixed or scrapped and replaced. Those issues about assisting Traffickers is being made at an EU level.

    Our Defense Forces much like our police force are a joke.
    When you hear some of the stories it just copper fastens that summation.

    Now some of that is down to personnel, a lot down to management and lot more down to how the state authorities i.e. government and perennial civil servants manage and budget for these services.

    Yes they are better than nothing and yes they have some successes, but sometimes they are found out.
    Dale Doback wrote: »
    What humanitarian endeavours have you accomplished?

    Ah let me guess rescuing economic migrants off the coast of Libya :rolleyes:
    old_aussie wrote: »
    Ireland is neutral.

    So why have a navy in the first place?

    Ireland just needs a coast guard.

    Save a motza and sell off the navy, something that's just there for the "dress-up events".

    We do need a Navy to patrl our waters for illegal fishing, smuggling countraband such as drugs, illegal migrants trying to gain entry, etc.

    And most top neutral countries like Sweden and Switzerland have pretty good Armies, Air Forces that are more than capable of putting up a good fight if push comes to shove.


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    #103
    jmayo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,110 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    TCM wrote: »
    I've a sinking feeling about this affair.

    What are you thinking about ?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yR0lWICH3rY


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    #104
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 28,165 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    The naval service shouldn't be arresting the NI fishermen, if anyone should be arrested it is the incompetent members of the Oireachtas who have failed to implement the necessary legislation to establish reciprocal rights on foot of the agreement and Supreme Court ruling. Whatever fuel was wasted on this mission should be billed to FG.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #105
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 28,165 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    https://www.rte.ie/news/ulster/2019/0301/1033620-fishing-trawlers/
    Judge Coughlan said it was clear the matter should be dealt with absolute discretion and he should be as lenient as possible.
    He applied the probation act on both men and lifted the order to allow their boats be released immediately.

    Yeah, that seriously warranted sending a naval service ship.

    An absolute joke all round, makes the navy look like a joke when it's the TDs that need to get the finger out.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #106
    sjb25
    Registered Users Posts: 3,376 ✭✭✭sjb25


    International incident at the court sitting :)


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    #107
    expectationlost
    Registered Users Posts: 11,769 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    odyssey06 wrote: »
    https://www.rte.ie/news/ulster/2019/0301/1033620-fishing-trawlers/
    Judge Coughlan said it was clear the matter should be dealt with absolute discretion and he should be as lenient as possible.
    He applied the probation act on both men and lifted the order to allow their boats be released immediately.

    Yeah, that seriously warranted sending a naval service ship.

    An absolute joke all round, makes the navy look like a joke when it's the TDs that need to get the finger out.
    but this is what the Navy do, fisheries protection.

    I thought the supreme court just recently reinforced the law, suggesting there isn't absolute discretion, of course that judge would know more about then me or is referring to a different point of law, he may be referring to the punishment rather then the act of detention.


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    #108
    Deise Vu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,939 ✭✭✭Deise Vu


    A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »
    it's not bizarre, the Irish Government is just acting in accordance with an (Irish) Supreme Court ruling that has struck down our voisinage agreement (you fish in my seas, I'll fish in yours) with the UK.

    The UK, for whatever reason, continues to allow irish vessels into its waters.


    Excuse me while I step outside and scream for a minute.

    Now, Coukd someone answer a simple question for me. Do southern fishermen actually avail of the possibility of fishing in northern waters. The reason I ask is because it was southern fishermen who successfully took the case to the Supreme Court to bar Nordies from southern waters.

    If they are actually fishing themselves in northern waters under the voisinage agreement it would not only be bizarre, it would be ridiculous, and a loaf of other adjectives too numerous to list here but none of them flattering to the southern fishermen.


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    #109
    expectationlost
    Registered Users Posts: 11,769 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    Two men plead guilty to breaching fishing regulations https://www.rte.ie/news/ulster/2019/0301/1033620-fishing-trawlers/ quickest way to get it over with, I wonder are they saying the didn't know it was illegal? and were aware of the recent change of situation.


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    #110
    expectationlost
    Registered Users Posts: 11,769 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    UK Navy do this role too Royal Navy prepares for future UK fishery patrols https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/royal-navy-prepares-for-future-uk-fishery-patrols/ via @ukdefjournal https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-latest-activity/operations/uk-home-waters/fishery-protection


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    #111
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 28,165 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    expectationlost wrote: »
    but this is what the Navy do, fisheries protection.
    I thought the supreme court just recently reinforced the law, suggesting there isn't absolute discretion, of course that judge would know more about then me or is referring to a different point of law, he may be referring to the punishment rather then the act of detention.

    Can you explain how our fisheries are being protected by this?
    Seems like up to 2015 Irish government didn't care. Is there some recent quota change that means the enforcement of the law is in now needed?

    I don't see anything here to justify the cost of this patrol, detention and court case. The judge treated it in the most lenient manner possible. The legal situation at the moment is a mess, our government needs to sort it out before there's any more of these embarrassing incidents.

    This should be treated like blasphemy before the referendum was as a dead law.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #112
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 28,165 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    expectationlost wrote: »
    UK Navy do this role too Royal Navy prepares for future UK fishery patrols https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/royal-navy-prepares-for-future-uk-fishery-patrols/ via @ukdefjournal https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-latest-activity/operations/uk-home-waters/fishery-protection

    Have they arrested any ROI boats for inshore fishing in NI waters recently?

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #113
    expectationlost
    Registered Users Posts: 11,769 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    odyssey06 wrote: »
    Have they arrested any ROI boats for inshore fishing in NI waters recently?


    the UK hadn't had recent supreme court judgement that said that they should have they?


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    #114
    expectationlost
    Registered Users Posts: 11,769 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    odyssey06 wrote: »
    Can you explain how our fisheries are being protected by this?
    Seems like up to 2015 Irish government didn't care. Is there some recent quota change that means the enforcement of the law is in now needed?

    I don't see anything here to justify the cost of this patrol, detention and court case. The judge treated it in the most lenient manner possible. The legal situation at the moment is a mess, our government needs to sort it out before there's any more of these embarrassing incidents.

    This should be treated like blasphemy before the referendum was as a dead law.
    i thought Irish Fishermen had taken a case all the way to supreme court which said that law should be enforced.


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    #115
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 28,165 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    expectationlost wrote: »
    i thought Irish Fishermen had taken a case all the way to supreme court which said that law should be enforced.

    The supreme court said the gentlemen's agreement to allow NI vessels access to ROI inshore fishing needed to be put on a statutory basis. That was several years ago. There seems to be no reason why this hasn't been done apart from our government being useless i.e. no one has raised objections on grounds of national interest or overfishing etc -> "The legislation was drafted in 2016 but remains on the shelf."
    This is the equivalent of I forgot my homework on our part.

    If it was such an imperative to enforce the law strictly and diligently then the naval service are doing a great job to have caught their first perpetrators now!

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #116
    cajonlardo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭cajonlardo


    [/QUOTE]

    Wonder where the army was in the Beast from the East last year. I am sure you will tell me.[/quote]

    ****edit, and not sure what I did wrong with that quote....
    I saw the army deployed in the seriously affected areas in Wicklow. They were working hard, in good spirits and as helpful as possible.

    Also, there was a soldier who CARRIED a seriously ill 7 y.o child 3kms to hospital because emergency vehicles couldn't get through.
    But I'm sure You did a lot more......


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    #117
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Deise Vu wrote: »
    Excuse me while I step outside and scream for a minute.

    Now, Coukd someone answer a simple question for me. Do southern fishermen actually avail of the possibility of fishing in northern waters. The reason I ask is because it was southern fishermen who successfully took the case to the Supreme Court to bar Nordies from southern waters.

    If they are actually fishing themselves in northern waters under the voisinage agreement it would not only be bizarre, it would be ridiculous, and a loaf of other adjectives too numerous to list here but none of them flattering to the southern fishermen.

    Yes they do and I agree it's not fair. The Irish government has promised legislation to deal with this. Hopefully they will.


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    #118
    wexandproud
    Registered Users Posts: 1,063 ✭✭✭wexandproud


    odyssey06 wrote: »
    Can you explain how our fisheries are being protected by this?
    Seems like up to 2015 Irish government didn't care. Is there some recent quota change that means the enforcement of the law is in now needed?

    I don't see anything here to justify the cost of this patrol, detention and court case. The judge treated it in the most lenient manner possible. The legal situation at the moment is a mess, our government needs to sort it out before there's any more of these embarrassing incidents.

    This should be treated like blasphemy before the referendum was as a dead law.
    Changes in quota happen every year but that has nothing to do with the situation , it was decided in court that the agreement in theory was fine but it was never legalized . It was also stated it was a grey area because of this . Even though the boats fishing here [before the judgement] were not fishing illegally they were not fishing legally either
    There would be no extra costs for the patrol , the navy are out there all the time on fisheries patrols and quite possible were not too far away . There is no legal mess , ''at the moment'' the guys were fishing illegally , they even pleaded guilty to the changes .
    Hopefully there will be action from the government the put something in place soon , although they will take their lead from senior civil servants in the department even though the supreme court recommended that the agreement or something similar should be in place

    southern boats continue to fish in the north at times


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    #119
    Sam Quentin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,223 ✭✭✭Sam Quentin


    Mines on file.... In a filing cabinet.
    Sorry that's all that goes through my head when I watch this thread :-))


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    #120
    malinheader
    Registered Users Posts: 4,973 ✭✭✭malinheader


    So am I right in saying the voisnage agreement will stay scrapped but another agreement is going to be put in place to allow Ni boats access to Roi waters and vice versa.


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    #121
    Deise Vu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,939 ✭✭✭Deise Vu


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Yes they do and I agree it's not fair. The Irish government has promised legislation to deal with this. Hopefully they will.

    Thanks for someone finally answering that question. I have seen reports on RTÉ, BBC NI and numerous newspaper reports and to a man , or woman, they all say NI still allows southern fishermen into northern waters but none said southern fishermen were actually doing it.

    I am going to take your word that this is in fact what is happening which basically means southerners are using Voisinage to fish northern waters while bringing a Supreme Court case to ban nordies claiming Voisinage rights down south. That isn’t bizarre it’s utterly ridiculous. We should send the navy out to sink any southern boat that attempts to go north.


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