Is the Irish Navy a disgrace?

jmayo · 01-03-2019 10:56am

skooterblue2 wrote: »

The Army is the support the Gardai if needed and our contributions to UN and EU mission. They are a great force to deploy in natural disasters and emergencies. I think the DoD makes very mistakes when purchasing comparison to the HSE and other armies. So they do give value for money but we do not look after our soldiers. I am hearing stories of former soldiers ending up on the streets and dealing with substance issues. Soldiers pay was never great but the gratuity and pension made up for it. That has now been slashed.

All Branches of the defence forces are losing technicians that simply cannot be replaced by calling a recruitment agency. Where are you supposed to get a Petty Officer with 10 year experience of working on a Volvo marine engine? You cant go down to Adecco and buy that experience.

Last I heard the Government Jet was mothballed in the States and being investigated if it was viable to be either fixed or scrapped and replaced. Those issues about assisting Traffickers is being made at an EU level.

Our Defense Forces much like our police force are a joke.
When you hear some of the stories it just copper fastens that summation.

Now some of that is down to personnel, a lot down to management and lot more down to how the state authorities i.e. government and perennial civil servants manage and budget for these services.

Yes they are better than nothing and yes they have some successes, but sometimes they are found out.

Dale Doback wrote: »

What humanitarian endeavours have you accomplished?

Ah let me guess rescuing economic migrants off the coast of Libya :rolleyes:

old_aussie wrote: »

Ireland is neutral.

So why have a navy in the first place?

Ireland just needs a coast guard.

Save a motza and sell off the navy, something that's just there for the "dress-up events".

We do need a Navy to patrl our waters for illegal fishing, smuggling countraband such as drugs, illegal migrants trying to gain entry, etc.

And most top neutral countries like Sweden and Switzerland have pretty good Armies, Air Forces that are more than capable of putting up a good fight if push comes to shove.

jmayo · 01-03-2019 11:03am

TCM wrote: »

I've a sinking feeling about this affair.

What are you thinking about ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yR0lWICH3rY

odyssey06 · 01-03-2019 11:35am

The naval service shouldn't be arresting the NI fishermen, if anyone should be arrested it is the incompetent members of the Oireachtas who have failed to implement the necessary legislation to establish reciprocal rights on foot of the agreement and Supreme Court ruling. Whatever fuel was wasted on this mission should be billed to FG.

odyssey06 · 01-03-2019 1:05pm

https://www.rte.ie/news/ulster/2019/0301/1033620-fishing-trawlers/
Judge Coughlan said it was clear the matter should be dealt with absolute discretion and he should be as lenient as possible.
He applied the probation act on both men and lifted the order to allow their boats be released immediately.

Yeah, that seriously warranted sending a naval service ship.

An absolute joke all round, makes the navy look like a joke when it's the TDs that need to get the finger out.

sjb25 · 01-03-2019 1:06pm

International incident at the court sitting

expectationlost · 01-03-2019 1:54pm

odyssey06 wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/ulster/2019/0301/1033620-fishing-trawlers/
Judge Coughlan said it was clear the matter should be dealt with absolute discretion and he should be as lenient as possible.
He applied the probation act on both men and lifted the order to allow their boats be released immediately.

Yeah, that seriously warranted sending a naval service ship.

An absolute joke all round, makes the navy look like a joke when it's the TDs that need to get the finger out.

but this is what the Navy do, fisheries protection.

I thought the supreme court just recently reinforced the law, suggesting there isn't absolute discretion, of course that judge would know more about then me or is referring to a different point of law, he may be referring to the punishment rather then the act of detention.

Deise Vu · 01-03-2019 1:59pm

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

it's not bizarre, the Irish Government is just acting in accordance with an (Irish) Supreme Court ruling that has struck down our voisinage agreement (you fish in my seas, I'll fish in yours) with the UK.

The UK, for whatever reason, continues to allow irish vessels into its waters.

Excuse me while I step outside and scream for a minute.

Now, Coukd someone answer a simple question for me. Do southern fishermen actually avail of the possibility of fishing in northern waters. The reason I ask is because it was southern fishermen who successfully took the case to the Supreme Court to bar Nordies from southern waters.

If they are actually fishing themselves in northern waters under the voisinage agreement it would not only be bizarre, it would be ridiculous, and a loaf of other adjectives too numerous to list here but none of them flattering to the southern fishermen.

expectationlost · 01-03-2019 2:03pm

Two men plead guilty to breaching fishing regulations https://www.rte.ie/news/ulster/2019/0301/1033620-fishing-trawlers/ quickest way to get it over with, I wonder are they saying the didn't know it was illegal? and were aware of the recent change of situation.

expectationlost · 01-03-2019 2:07pm

UK Navy do this role too Royal Navy prepares for future UK fishery patrols https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/royal-navy-prepares-for-future-uk-fishery-patrols/ via @ukdefjournal https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-latest-activity/operations/uk-home-waters/fishery-protection

odyssey06 · 01-03-2019 2:25pm

expectationlost wrote: »

but this is what the Navy do, fisheries protection.
I thought the supreme court just recently reinforced the law, suggesting there isn't absolute discretion, of course that judge would know more about then me or is referring to a different point of law, he may be referring to the punishment rather then the act of detention.

Can you explain how our fisheries are being protected by this?
Seems like up to 2015 Irish government didn't care. Is there some recent quota change that means the enforcement of the law is in now needed?

I don't see anything here to justify the cost of this patrol, detention and court case. The judge treated it in the most lenient manner possible. The legal situation at the moment is a mess, our government needs to sort it out before there's any more of these embarrassing incidents.

This should be treated like blasphemy before the referendum was as a dead law.

odyssey06 · 01-03-2019 2:27pm

expectationlost wrote: »

UK Navy do this role too Royal Navy prepares for future UK fishery patrols https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/royal-navy-prepares-for-future-uk-fishery-patrols/ via @ukdefjournal https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-latest-activity/operations/uk-home-waters/fishery-protection

Have they arrested any ROI boats for inshore fishing in NI waters recently?

expectationlost · 01-03-2019 2:31pm

odyssey06 wrote: »

Have they arrested any ROI boats for inshore fishing in NI waters recently?

the UK hadn't had recent supreme court judgement that said that they should have they?

expectationlost · 01-03-2019 2:32pm

odyssey06 wrote: »

Can you explain how our fisheries are being protected by this?
Seems like up to 2015 Irish government didn't care. Is there some recent quota change that means the enforcement of the law is in now needed?

I don't see anything here to justify the cost of this patrol, detention and court case. The judge treated it in the most lenient manner possible. The legal situation at the moment is a mess, our government needs to sort it out before there's any more of these embarrassing incidents.

This should be treated like blasphemy before the referendum was as a dead law.

i thought Irish Fishermen had taken a case all the way to supreme court which said that law should be enforced.

odyssey06 · 01-03-2019 2:42pm

expectationlost wrote: »

i thought Irish Fishermen had taken a case all the way to supreme court which said that law should be enforced.

The supreme court said the gentlemen's agreement to allow NI vessels access to ROI inshore fishing needed to be put on a statutory basis. That was several years ago. There seems to be no reason why this hasn't been done apart from our government being useless i.e. no one has raised objections on grounds of national interest or overfishing etc -> "The legislation was drafted in 2016 but remains on the shelf."
This is the equivalent of I forgot my homework on our part.

If it was such an imperative to enforce the law strictly and diligently then the naval service are doing a great job to have caught their first perpetrators now!

cajonlardo · 01-03-2019 3:00pm

[/QUOTE]

Wonder where the army was in the Beast from the East last year. I am sure you will tell me.[/quote]

****edit, and not sure what I did wrong with that quote....
I saw the army deployed in the seriously affected areas in Wicklow. They were working hard, in good spirits and as helpful as possible.

Also, there was a soldier who CARRIED a seriously ill 7 y.o child 3kms to hospital because emergency vehicles couldn't get through.
But I'm sure You did a lot more......

steddyeddy · 01-03-2019 3:10pm

Deise Vu wrote: »

Excuse me while I step outside and scream for a minute.

Now, Coukd someone answer a simple question for me. Do southern fishermen actually avail of the possibility of fishing in northern waters. The reason I ask is because it was southern fishermen who successfully took the case to the Supreme Court to bar Nordies from southern waters.

If they are actually fishing themselves in northern waters under the voisinage agreement it would not only be bizarre, it would be ridiculous, and a loaf of other adjectives too numerous to list here but none of them flattering to the southern fishermen.

Yes they do and I agree it's not fair. The Irish government has promised legislation to deal with this. Hopefully they will.

wexandproud · 01-03-2019 3:50pm

odyssey06 wrote: »

Can you explain how our fisheries are being protected by this?
Seems like up to 2015 Irish government didn't care. Is there some recent quota change that means the enforcement of the law is in now needed?

I don't see anything here to justify the cost of this patrol, detention and court case. The judge treated it in the most lenient manner possible. The legal situation at the moment is a mess, our government needs to sort it out before there's any more of these embarrassing incidents.

This should be treated like blasphemy before the referendum was as a dead law.

Changes in quota happen every year but that has nothing to do with the situation , it was decided in court that the agreement in theory was fine but it was never legalized . It was also stated it was a grey area because of this . Even though the boats fishing here [before the judgement] were not fishing illegally they were not fishing legally either
There would be no extra costs for the patrol , the navy are out there all the time on fisheries patrols and quite possible were not too far away . There is no legal mess , ''at the moment'' the guys were fishing illegally , they even pleaded guilty to the changes .
Hopefully there will be action from the government the put something in place soon , although they will take their lead from senior civil servants in the department even though the supreme court recommended that the agreement or something similar should be in place

southern boats continue to fish in the north at times

Sam Quentin · 01-03-2019 4:14pm

Mines on file.... In a filing cabinet.
Sorry that's all that goes through my head when I watch this thread :-))

malinheader · 01-03-2019 4:17pm

So am I right in saying the voisnage agreement will stay scrapped but another agreement is going to be put in place to allow Ni boats access to Roi waters and vice versa.

Deise Vu · 01-03-2019 4:20pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

Yes they do and I agree it's not fair. The Irish government has promised legislation to deal with this. Hopefully they will.

Thanks for someone finally answering that question. I have seen reports on RTÉ, BBC NI and numerous newspaper reports and to a man , or woman, they all say NI still allows southern fishermen into northern waters but none said southern fishermen were actually doing it.

I am going to take your word that this is in fact what is happening which basically means southerners are using Voisinage to fish northern waters while bringing a Supreme Court case to ban nordies claiming Voisinage rights down south. That isn’t bizarre it’s utterly ridiculous. We should send the navy out to sink any southern boat that attempts to go north.

wexandproud · 01-03-2019 4:22pm

malinheader wrote: »

So am I right in saying the voisnage agreement will stay scrapped but another agreement is going to be put in place to allow Ni boats access to Roi waters and vice versa.

that's the general jist of it but there will be huge objections to it from parts of the country not affected by it and the can will be kicked down the road

malinheader · 01-03-2019 4:27pm

wexandproud wrote: »

that's the general jist of it but there will be huge objections to it from parts of the country not affected by it and the can will be kicked down the road

I don't see why there should be any objections. It worked ok for over 50 years until a small few wanted it abolished for there own gains

wexandproud · 01-03-2019 4:37pm

malinheader wrote: »

I don't see why there should be any objections. It worked ok for over 50 years until a small few wanted it abolished for there own gains

i agree with ya , but once the case was over their was big pressure from along the south and west coast not to legalize it . one thing for sure , its a whole mess

malinheader · 01-03-2019 4:43pm

wexandproud wrote: »

i agree with ya , but once the case was over their was big pressure from along the south and west coast not to legalize it . one thing for sure , its a whole mess

Sure is. Going to be an interesting few weeks ahead.

expectationlost · 01-03-2019 5:59pm

odyssey06 wrote: »

The supreme court said the gentlemen's agreement to allow NI vessels access to ROI inshore fishing needed to be put on a statutory basis. That was several years ago. There seems to be no reason why this hasn't been done apart from our government being useless i.e. no one has raised objections on grounds of national interest or overfishing etc -> "The legislation was drafted in 2016 but remains on the shelf."
This is the equivalent of I forgot my homework on our part.

If it was such an imperative to enforce the law strictly and diligently then the naval service are doing a great job to have caught their first perpetrators now!

gov says they detained two UK vessels last year https://twitter.com/gavreilly/status/1101195260791803904 but Im not sure if it was on the same basis, I looked at the fisheries protection website and it doesn't give those details.

expectationlost · 01-03-2019 6:00pm

Deise Vu wrote: »

I am going to take your word that this is in fact what is happening which basically means southerners are using Voisinage to fish northern waters while bringing a Supreme Court case to ban nordies claiming Voisinage rights down south. That isn’t bizarre it’s utterly ridiculous. We should send the navy out to sink any southern boat that attempts to go north.

is the exact same people doing both?

topper75 · 01-03-2019 6:08pm

odyssey06 wrote: »

I dont think the Navy are a disgrace but many of the missions the Irish Navy are sent on are a disgrace.

Nailed it in a sentence.

wexandproud · 01-03-2019 6:16pm

malinheader wrote: »

Sure is. Going to be an interesting few weeks ahead.

a few weeks ... don't hold your breath

Atoms for Peace · 01-03-2019 6:16pm

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

We've the finest seamen in Western Europe

Oh, now I get it.

malinheader · 01-03-2019 6:36pm

wexandproud wrote: »

a few weeks ... don't hold your breath

There was a boat arrested in Donegal last January 2018. Very little word about it,no rte or BBC coverage . No one really cared.

Whats different this time . Is it because they are based in northern Ireland and there ministers will stand up for their fishermen.

wexandproud · 01-03-2019 6:42pm

malinheader wrote: »

There was a boat arrested in Donegal last January 2018. Very little word about it,no rte or BBC coverage . No one really cared.

Whats different this time . Is it because they are based in northern Ireland and there ministers will stand up for their fishermen.

like i said in a post earlier , id say there's something more to this story . Someone trying to rattle the cage a bit id say . Politicians commenting and a representative from their fishing organisation refusing to comment . All a bit strange me thinks

expectationlost · 01-03-2019 7:14pm

wexandproud wrote: »

like i said in a post earlier , id say there's something more to this story . Someone trying to rattle the cage a bit id say . Politicians commenting and a representative from their fishing organisation refusing to comment . All a bit strange me thinks

the more to the story is that how the unionists jumped on it.

expectationlost · 01-03-2019 7:52pm

malinheader wrote: »

There was a boat arrested in Donegal last January 2018. Very little word about it,no rte or BBC coverage . No one really cared.

Whats different this time . Is it because they are based in northern Ireland and there ministers will stand up for their fishermen.

a gb registered boat? very hard to find info on this military.ie created a new website and not archived their old one http://www.military.ie/en/news-and-events/news-archive/

expectationlost · 02-03-2019 2:02pm

heres a UK registered vessels detained for illegally fishing in Irish waters in 2013 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-21858905

odyssey06 · 02-03-2019 2:38pm

expectationlost wrote: »

heres a UK registered vessels detained for illegally fishing in Irish waters in 2013 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-21858905

The current dispute if I understand it correctly is about inshore fishing rights which is within 6 nautical miles of the coast.
That vessel was a totally different situation if it was fishing 11 miles out.

Spanish Eyes · 02-03-2019 7:44pm

Well that's all cleared up now. ROI needs legislation for the Voisinage agreement.

So surely UK also need to legislate for a reciprocal Voisinage agreement?

But looking at their preps (legislative and otherwise) for Brexit, I would wonder.

I think a blind eye should be put out now. And I think the Judge in the case kind of intimated that really. No need for a cod war. We are better than that.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 03-03-2019 9:16am

A few people have asked 'what do our defence forces do' and questions of the like, well here's just a few examples from 2018;

MEMBERS OF THE Irish Defence Forces had a busy year, with personnel supporting State agencies at home and 1,690 deployed abroad for peacekeeping missions.

At home, personnel were deployed on a range of aid to civil power and aid to civil authority operations.

This included:

197 operations in support of gardauch as bomb disposal, prisoner escorts, major cash escorts and search operations;
Providing a permanent armed guard at Ireland’s only maximum security prison in Portlaoise as well as the Central Bank;
Approximately 2,861 personnel deployed to assist during gorse fires, transportation of medication, meals on wheels, evacuation of people from cars and snow clearance during storm Emma;
The Defence Forces also deployed approximately 3,364 personnel in support of State visits and the Papal visit in August 2018.

The Naval Service conducted 740 boarding operations and detained seven vessels for alleged infringement of fishing regulations. And the Air Corps completed more than 310 emergency air support service missions with the HSE.

Internationally 1,692 personnel served in overseas United Nations mandated peace support and security operations in 14 countries and one sea. There are currently 650 members of the Defence Forces serving in these countries.

The largest Defence Forces deployment is to South Lebanon with UNIFIL where 462 personnel are deployed, to create a safe and secure environment; Ireland took over a full Battalion in November 2018 which saw an increase in personnel deployed there by over 100. Ireland has 138 personnel deployed as a Disengagement Observer Force in the Golan Heights, UNDOF, where in Oct 2018 they completed a relocation from the Golan Heights to Syria.

The Irish Defence Forces have the longest unbroken record of overseas service with the UN of any country in the world since first deploying to a mission in 1958.

We spend the lowest amount of our GDP on defence than any other country in Europe, including Luxembourg, we're punching well above our weight and delivering real value and service to the country.

At the moment we're serving in countries such as Lebanon, Syria, The Med Sea, Mali, Afghanistan, Bosnia and have served in the Congo, Liberia, Somalia, Ethiopia, Chad, East Timor, Kuwait and many more.

We're not just swanning around oversea's topping up a good tan either, many have paid the ultimate sacrifice. We're bringing real humanitarian aid and peace to vulnerable, oppressed and war ravaged people. Our troops also captured and brought to justice the war lord Charles Taylor. And we shared in the Nobel Prize for Peace back in 1988 (a mission I was serving on at the time).

I hope that answers some questions regarding what our defence forces do.

Liberia

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A53MyKEznrY

Chad

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WwRWnyMW5g

Lebanon, Somalia and East Timor

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXlx04fBCgg

Syria

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=he5vXpE44CQ

Afghanistan

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBuOJVGY5qQ

arybvtcw0eolkf · 03-03-2019 9:58am

old_aussie wrote: »

Ireland is neutral.

So why have a navy in the first place?

Ireland just needs a coast guard.

Save a motza and sell off the navy, something that's just there for the "dress-up events".

We have a coast guard, remember when Coast Guard Rescue 116 went down and our navy conducted the largest and longest search and recovery operation in the history of the state?.. Remember that?.

odyssey06 · 03-03-2019 11:29am

Melina Numerous Gasoline wrote: »

We have a coast guard, remember when Coast Guard Rescue 116 went down and our navy conducted the largest and longest search and recovery operation in the history of the state?.. Remember that?.

Just wondering - do we have any coast guard vessels ?

arybvtcw0eolkf · 03-03-2019 11:46am

odyssey06 wrote: »

Just wondering - do we have any coast guard vessels ?
I think the point is coast guard vessels in other states are robably covering what we have our navy doing re fisheries, rescue and drug patrols in our waters.

I'm not entirely sure if we have coast guard vessels tbh, but I doubt it.

What makes you think a coast guard would be cheaper to run than a navy given that it would require ships, crew, logistics etc.. And it would probably be contracted like the Helo's and costing a fortune ~ civilians won't work for the same money and under the same conditions as members of the DF.

And if you're going to have a coast guard cover drug running operations then you're going to have to arm it and give it a deep sea capability. Our navy operates alongside other EU navy and intelligence services in tracking and apprehending ships trying to smuggle drugs and weapons into the UK and Ireland.

The Air Corp also provide sea cover too with the CASA air craft, these can do fisheries protection, over the horizon radar coverage, sea state reports etc ~ are you going to replace these with a coast guard too?. Its not impossible but where's the cost savings given we spend the least amount of our GDP in Europe on defence and as I posted above for that money we're giving excellent value and real service to the country. We really do punch well above our weight.

At present our coast guard are civilian contractors.

whisky_galore · 03-03-2019 11:51am

odyssey06 wrote: »

Just wondering - do we have any coast guard vessels ?
I think the point is coast guard vessels in other states are robably covering what we have our navy doing re fisheries, rescue and drug patrols in our waters.

They have quite a few around the country, but none bigger than a RiB afaik.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 03-03-2019 12:00pm

whisky_galore wrote: »

They have quite a few around the country, but none bigger than a RiB afaik.

I done a quick google search, you're correct.

I'm largely ignorant of the work of the Irish coast guard tbh.

odyssey06 · 03-03-2019 12:09pm

Melina Numerous Gasoline wrote: »

I'm not entirely sure if we have coast guard vessels tbh, but I doubt it.
What makes you think a coast guard would be cheaper to run than a navy given that it would require ships, crew, logistics etc.. And it would probably be contracted like the Helo's and costing a fortune ~ civilians won't work for the same money and under the same conditions as members of the DF.

I didn't say it would be civilian, not sure why we can't have a coast guard part of the DF which includes helicopters and ships comparable to the US Coast Guard. For monitoring of our territorial waters only and adjacent, and not to be sent overseas or into direct military action which is what a navy would be capable of doing.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 03-03-2019 12:11pm

odyssey06 wrote: »

Just wondering - do we have any coast guard vessels ?
I think the point is coast guard vessels in other states are robably covering what we have our navy doing re fisheries, rescue and drug patrols in our waters.

Just finally on the navy, air corp and coast guard. My knowledge is pretty limited as I'm a soldier.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 03-03-2019 12:16pm

odyssey06 wrote: »

I didn't say it would be civilian, not sure why we can't have a coast guard part of the DF which includes helicopters and ships comparable to the US Coast Guard. For monitoring of our territorial waters only and adjacent, and not to be sent overseas or into direct military action which is what a navy would be capable of doing.

Again back to punching above our weight, our navy are doing all that work already along with its other taskings.

I really can't see where you're coming from, but then as I said my knowledge of this stuff is fairly limited.

odyssey06 · 03-03-2019 12:25pm

Melina Numerous Gasoline wrote: »

Again back to punching above our weight, our navy are doing all that work already along with its other taskings.

I really can't see where you're coming from, but then as I said my knowledge of this stuff is fairly limited.

Well I think we are probably 80% in agreement but I would prefer a US style coastguard that includes the current irish coastguard functions and most of current jobs the navy does excluding anything like overseas rescue missions or battlegroups.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 03-03-2019 12:26pm

Just on the operation in the Med, I'm going to keep my own personal opinion on it to myself but for those people here who say we shouldn't be there just try remember our navy are rescuing and saving human lives.

No matter what your feelings are on the matter of those lives being brought back to Europe everyone has a basic human right to live in a safe & secure environment.

This is a very good clip of our navy in the Med including a rescue operation of drowning people, saving lives.

Its a good clip, worth viewing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=burpJ6kKW10

Look at the first ten minutes if you think what our navy is doing in the Med is a waste of time, and be honest with yourself and ask if you could do it too.

Warning, shows drowning women and children

arybvtcw0eolkf · 03-03-2019 12:45pm

odyssey06 wrote: »

Well I think we are probably 80% in agreement but I would prefer a US style coastguard that includes the current irish coastguard functions and most of current jobs the navy does excluding anything like overseas rescue missions or battlegroups.

That just sounds like you just want to relabel the navy. Nothing will change but the navy and colors of the equipment.

The job is being done already.

Just last year the navy seized €400 worth of cocaine in one single shipment, the largest seizure in the history of the state but not the only one. This is work which is going on all the time.

I'm not even nit picking but I can't see the point you're trying to make, sorry if I'm missing the obvious.

odyssey06 · 03-03-2019 12:48pm

Melina Numerous Gasoline wrote: »

Just on the operation in the Med, I'm going to keep my own personal opinion on it to myself but for those people here who say we shouldn't be there just try remember our navy are rescuing and saving human lives.

No matter what your feelings are on the matter of those lives being brought back to Europe everyone has a basic human right to live in a safe & secure environment.

This is a very good clip of our navy in the Med including a rescue operation of drowning people, saving lives.

Look at the first ten minutes if you think what our navy is doing in the Med is a waste of time, and be honest with yourself and ask if you could do it too.

Warning, shows drowning women and children

They put themselves in danger because rescue ships are there. That doesnt count as saving a life in my book.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 03-03-2019 12:51pm

odyssey06 wrote: »

They put themselves in danger because rescue ships are there. That doesnt count as saving a life in my book.

Did you watch the rescue?. Would you have let them drown?.

I think something like 8 of the 120 people on that boat died btw, but many lives were saved, its all there in the first ten minutes of the clip.

Is the Irish Navy a disgrace?

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