Update old headstone or get a new one?

Paddy Cow · 25-03-2017 10:12pm #1

Bit of back story. My Dad died 27 years ago. My mother was only 38 at the time and put a lot of effort into the headstone and spent a small fortune putting details on it that she felt represented him and their life. My mother died last April at 64 and I always assumed that her details would be added to the headstone. One of my brothers has decided that the grave needs an overhaul and that includes a new headstone, with new wording etc. His reasoning is that the old grave looks old and he wants to give Mum a shiny new grave.

I think this is really disrespectful. My Mum picked out everything about that grave when my Dad died, knowing that someday she would be buried with him. My brother can't see this. He was only 7 when my Dad died and was quite close to Mum when she died so he only seems to see it as "her" grave, rather than "their" grave. I honestly think that Mum would want to be buried beside her husband in the grave that she picked out but my brother can't see this.

I know that After Hours isn't always the most sensible of places to post in but I also know that poster can be quite helpful.

I'm at my wits end here.

This isn't a case of who is right or who is wrong but how do we resolve this?

tomwaterford · 25-03-2017 10:15pm

Why don't yet get either a second headstone just for your mother

Or another larger one made up incorporating both the older one and the one which your brother wants to make

Don't fall out over it,what ever happens

Poor Uncle Tom · 25-03-2017 10:21pm

It's just a grave and not worth falling out over, but talk to your brother and compromise is always the bast option. The old grave stone and kerb stones can be cleaned up and re-lettered. If there is no give on his side let him go ahead and when the dust settles get a flat stone made up with all the detail you want on it and put it on the bed of the grave.

Tauriel · 25-03-2017 10:23pm

There are specialists out there that can make an old headstone look nearly new again. Perhaps research companies near yourself that offer these services and see if they can spruce up the old headstone rather than forking out on a new one.

Ten of Swords · 25-03-2017 10:24pm

Your mother chose the headstone and text at the time as a way to remember your dad but she is now gone and now your family must decide how best to remember both of them.

I would only see it as disrespectful if the new text your brother is considering eliminates all mention of your father but if it doesn't then I can't see how he is being disrespectful, he is choosing how he wants to remember both of them and thinks that an updated headstone and updated text is the best way. Have a frank discussion about it but don't fall out over it. You both ultimately want the same thing, something to remember them by.

oppenheimer1 · 25-03-2017 10:25pm

I second the above. Once the old one is cleaned up it will look like a new one.

DEFTLEFTHAND · 25-03-2017 10:25pm

We got a crowd in to power wash our headstone recently. It came up as good as new.

It was first placed on the plot in 1987.

buried · 25-03-2017 10:28pm

Headstones can be nicely cleaned these days, as long as the right materials are used. At the end of it all, whatever option ye choose - it will be the last thing you both do for you're Mum, so try not to fall out over it. Hope ye resolve the matter

Archeron · 25-03-2017 10:30pm

For me it would part depend on the stone and surround being removed. I find a lot of the stones from back then were as much as people could afford but often were not top quality or nice designs. The one thing i would keep the same is the wording as it is on the stone now, with your mum's details added.

If your brothers relationship is as you say then he'll likely never change his mind, so I'd go with the new stone but have an input and find one that you feel represents them both to you.

magentis · 25-03-2017 10:30pm

Its a hard situation to deal with op.
When a parent passes on,a lot of people have their own ideas.I'm with you,your mother chose the headstone and for me that is more than good enough.

But try not to let it all come between you.

Victor · 25-03-2017 10:40pm

Did your mother say anything in her will about it?

Paddy Cow · 25-03-2017 10:50pm

Thanks for all the advice.

I don't want to fall out with my brother but it's hard to reach a compromise when we're at such polar opposites. I think the grave should be left as my mother left it and he wants to modernise it. By modernising it, he means changing everything.

It would be easier to accept his changes if he visited the grave on a regular basis but he doesn't. He's hardly visited since my Dad died and never did any up keep. He doesn't live in the country and I can't see him keeping the grave in good keep in the future.

It's not even a year since our Mum died and I think it's grief that has him acting this way. He wants to give her the best send off he thinks she deserves but he doesn't see that she already did that nearly 30 years ago when she decided on the grave of her and her husband.

I won't fall out with him over it and if he wants to go ahead with it I won't stop him but once he changes the grave his mother chose, there's no going back.

Maybe I'm being over dramatic but this is an emotional topic at the moment and I appreciate advice

Badly Drunk Boy · 25-03-2017 11:04pm

Ten of Swords wrote: »

Your mother chose the headstone and text at the time as a way to remember your dad but she is now gone and now your family must decide how best to remember both of them.

In that case, should get rid of all headstones of people who have no direct links to the living? Get rid of any personal details, and if you're feeling generous, leave the name and date?

As others have mentioned, headstones can be cleaned up very well these days so that would be the sensible (and appropriate) option, especially if your brother won't be visiting the grave (much).

ShadyAcres · 25-03-2017 11:06pm

As others have said, there are ways of cleaning it up. They can power wash it and use acids to clean it up. A Stonemason can redo the lettering if it's worn. Talk to a good Stonemason
I'd be in the same boat as you in not wanting to change too much.

Paddy Cow · 25-03-2017 11:09pm

Victor wrote: »

Did your mother say anything in her will about it?

No but she was very clear about her funeral! My mother died of cancer and she was strong until the end. The doctors wanted her to take morphine but she refused as she wanted to stay clear minded. She was some women and no wall flower and definitely knew her mind.

There was one night, maybe a week before she passed, when she was still able enough to sit in a wheelchair and she called us all around the table and spoke about how she would like her funeral, etc, She was very specific about the details and everything she asked for was honoured.

My brother and I are only starting to clash now. I feel that if my mother, who was so strong minded and who and planned her own funeral, wanted a new grave, then she would have told us. My brother (who I think is coming from a good place) is going to destroy something that was important to his mother and it won't hit him until a few years down the road and it's too late to turn back the clock then.

_Brian · 25-03-2017 11:21pm

All I can add is that I'm sure your mum and dad would have wanted you both to get on, yes your mum chose these things but would she want you to take such a stand over them that potentially the relationship between you and your brother be damaged, possibly forever ??

This may seem like a huge thing now but I think in the long term you'll come to see it as less of an issue.

The one thing I say to my girls is that no matter what, they must always stick together and that they should always rely on each other, I'd be happy in an unmarked paupers grave if they were happy and close.

buried · 25-03-2017 11:24pm

Just another bit of advice Paddy - If you do go for the option of getting the monument cleaned, be sure to ask the stonemason how they are going to clean it. Do not employ one who says they will 'sandblast' it, sandblasting it will remove the natural 'skin' of the stone and in a few months time it will look worse than anything it looks like now. Like Deftlefthand said above, a good power washer with proper materials will clean it up really nice.

If the headstone or kerbing surrounds are a bit loose it may need a new foundation, but any good mason will be able to take up your existing headstone, place a good foundation underneath and put back the original headstone back on to it. Ask around your local area who is the most trustworthy mason for the job, look at older headstones in the local graveyards that are still in good stable condition and find out the mason who did that work and seek their advice.

Paddy Cow · 25-03-2017 11:29pm

ShadyAcres wrote: »

As others have said, there are ways of cleaning it up. They can power wash it and use acids to clean it up. A Stonemason can redo the lettering if it's worn. Talk to a good Stonemason
I'd be in the same boat as you in not wanting to change too much.

The headstone looks the same as it did the day my mother got it engragved. My brother wants to take it down and get a bigger one. That I have a problem with. The one my mother got is still fine and has plenty of space left for her name. She paid very good money for that, money she could hardly afford, that's why I have such an issue with my brother getting rid of it.

Tauriel · 25-03-2017 11:44pm

Paddy Cow wrote: »

The headstone looks the same as it did the day my mother got it engragved. My brother wants to take it down and get a bigger one. That I have a problem with. The one my mother got is still fine and has plenty of space left for her name. She paid very good money for that, money she could hardly afford, that's why I have such an issue with my brother getting rid of it.

Some cemeteries have introduced height restrictions on headstones. Perhaps check with the council if there is a height restriction on headstones, that will help your case if there is.

andekwarhola · 26-03-2017 12:51am

I think I'd prefer to shell out to get it properly restored rather than a new one. Would be nicer and more fitting to preserve the original one.

ChikiChiki · 26-03-2017 3:35am

Paddy Cow wrote: »

Bit of back story. My Dad died 27 years ago. My mother was only 38 at the time and put a lot of effort into the headstone and spent a small fortune putting details on it that she felt represented him and their life. My mother died last April at 64 and I always assumed that her details would be added to the headstone. One of my brothers has decided that the grave needs an overhaul and that includes a new headstone, with new wording etc. His reasoning is that the old grave looks old and he wants to give Mum a shiny new grave.

I think this is really disrespectful. My Mum picked out everything about that grave when my Dad died, knowing that someday she would be buried with him. My brother can't see this. He was only 7 when my Dad died and was quite close to Mum when she died so he only seems to see it as "her" grave, rather than "their" grave. I honestly think that Mum would want to be buried beside her husband in the grave that she picked out but my brother can't see this.

I know that After Hours isn't always the most sensible of places to post in but I also know that poster can be quite helpful.

I'm at my wits end here.

This isn't a case of who is right or who is wrong but how do we resolve this?

Im sure your parents wouldn't want you to fall out over something so minor in the grand scheme of things.

The Raptor · 26-03-2017 3:44am

Paddy Cow wrote: »

The headstone looks the same as it did the day my mother got it engragved. My brother wants to take it down and get a bigger one. That I have a problem with. The one my mother got is still fine and has plenty of space left for her name. She paid very good money for that, money she could hardly afford, that's why I have such an issue with my brother getting rid of it.

Why does he think bigger is equal to a better one? Tell him to fcuk right off.

diomed · 26-03-2017 4:03am

mustang shelly wrote: »

Some cemeteries have introduced height restrictions on headstones. Perhaps check with the council if there is a height restriction on headstones, that will help your case if there is.

I agree. In the cemetery where my father is buried one new grave had a giant statue put up. It was removed.
There are regulations and no one can go beyond the limits.

26-03-2017 5:03am

My grandmother went first, and we got her a headstone at the cremation plot with space on it for my grandad too. My uncle died next, and went into the plot, and his name was then added to the gravestone. Then the gravestone broke and needed replacing, and went back on the grave with my gran's name on it, and not my uncle's. Since then my grandad has gone into the plot too, and his name has never been added either. When my dad died (other side of the family) my uncle said he could also go into the plot if we wanted, but such a fiasco we said no. He's at home on my mother's shelves - she told us she doesn't want to go in their either!

Truth be told, it's only a headstone. Those people are not there. Your brother is still around, maybe what makes him feel better would be the right move? Graves are not for the dead, they're for the living to remember.

ChikiChiki · 26-03-2017 5:19am

The Raptor wrote: »

Why does he think bigger is equal to a better one? Tell him to fcuk right off.

Dont do this. Its only a headsone ffs.

The stupid things families fall out over.....

B0jangles · 26-03-2017 9:32am

I'd suggest just waiting for a while; if your brother's attitude is due to grief he might well become less determined to make the changes and more open to hearing what your mother would actually have wanted. As to cleaning the original stone, unless the lettering has become hard to read, the stone is damaged, or its badly stained I'd leave it as is - natural aging is not necessarily ugly.

and of course, condolences on your loss, I think your mother would have appreciated how you're trying to do what she would have wanted

.

Galwayguy35 · 26-03-2017 9:55am

If your brother doesn't change his mind on this it might be better to let him have his way, no point falling out over it.

Victor · 26-03-2017 5:28pm

Here's some advice from a friend who's in the headstone business.

As others in the thread have said: It's not worth fighting over -- issues with headstones and graves have split some families.

If you do go down the cleaning route most sand the stone, maybe powerwashing is a Dublin thing or something.

There's an advantage to getting the stone upgraded in that the limestone or marble used widely needs heavy cleaning cleaning, while the main modern stone is polished granite and that only needs a wipe down.

Sometimes 20 or 30 years ago the even when the kerbs and base were limestone the headstones were polished granite -- in that case you can upgrade the kerb and base but keep the old headstone. That could be a good compromise if the headstone is granite.

Another compromise -- as I think others have said -- would be to get a fully new headstone but follow the text your mother had for your father and keep that style for your mother's inscription.

Hope that helps!

freshpopcorn · 26-03-2017 5:43pm

I'm good at taking notice of graves when I'm in a graveyard and would generally notices changes.
Generally people only change headstones if the head stone is damaged or broken but this only ever really happens if theirs a poor foundation and it get damaged in a storm.
Generally when somebody dies people get the head stone and kerbs cleaned and the news name engraved and they get all the writing redone!
I'd find it strange to be honest what your brother wants to do your mother choose the headstone for your farther and she probably knew her name was going to be on it one day.

wakka12 · 26-03-2017 5:51pm

Did your mum still wish to be buried with her husband after 27 years? Did she have relationships since his death? Maybe she had changed her opinion on that by the time of her death?

Jurgen Klopp · 26-03-2017 6:17pm

Is it he thinks the current setup isn't worthy or its aged?

Just write down what the stone currently says and get it sandblasted, then re engraved.

Maybe fresh stones then.

If needed can get the frame stone power washed which should clean it up, no real need to sand blast that obviously.

Red Kev · 26-03-2017 6:38pm

Maybe ask another family member what they think and try to get them to talk to your brother.

I disagree with those who say "It's just a headstone". It's more than that, it's the last memorial to them, so it needs to be done right. Maybe give it a bit more time. There's a tradition in our family that you don't touch the grave for 12 months after the funeral, so maybe use the time to slowly convince him.

But I'd try to get somebody else to talk to him as well.

the_pen_turner · 26-03-2017 7:19pm

I wonder has this reaction got to do with him living in another countr and maybe not being able to be there for his mother enough

diomed · 26-03-2017 7:55pm

It might be better to say to him that you are both so close to your parents that rather than get too emotional it would be better to get someone else in the family, possibly an older person, to meet you both, listen to you, and then decide for you.

Annasopra · 27-03-2017 10:29am

OP you seem to have other brothers. Have you spoken with them?

Paddy Cow · 27-03-2017 6:12pm

Thanks for all your replies. When I posted this thread I was a bit very emotional and deliberately didn't read all the replies until today. I wanted to get other people's perspectives/experiences. Sometimes it helps to get input from strangers

To clear up a few points:

The current headstone is looking just as good today, as when it was erected 27 years ago. There is no need to repair it.

My brother is hell bent on a new headstone because it's what HE wants for Mum. He is totally blinkered when it comes to this. All he can see is that he wants to give his Mum the best send off he can afford. I don't doubt that his heart is in the right place. He has a good job and can afford it and it's not a case of him splashing the cash. My mother died from a long drawn out battle with cancer and my brother was nothing but good to her. I know he thinks he is doing a good think by giving her a fancy new grave and headstone.

The issue I have with it is that I know my mother would hate it.

It's easy to say that it's just a headstone and don't fall out over it etc but that headstone meant a lot to my mother. What I didn't say in my OP (and I think this is why it is bothering me so much lately) is that my Dad was lost in Galway Bay in 1990 and it took three weeks for them to find his body. He was a fisherman and Mum never really got over his death. She went to a lot of trouble to get an engraving of Dad's boat on the headstone. After his death, she would visit his grave a lot, which is to be expected. She remarried but that didn't last and never had another relationship.

My Mum met my Dad when she was 13 and he was 18 (different times). They eloped to London together and returned to Ireland and got married when she was 18. They had a very happy life until he went missing. Like I said, Mum never got over it but she put her heart and soul into that headstone. It was her final tribute to him. She always knew she would be buried beside her husband and she chose everything knowing she would one day join him.

This gets us back to the present day conundrum. I think it's too quick for my brother to be making such big changes. He is all about honouring Mum and giving her a big send off but I think it's a huge mistake to get rid of HER chosen headstone, just to replace it with a new one. He was only 7 when Dad died and doesn't seem to make the connection between what Mum wanted back then and what he wants now.

I wish I could talk him out of it because I think that in a few years when his head is in a more level place he will see that what he is doing now is not what Mum would have wanted. My other brothers and sisters are scattered all over the world and aren't putting up objections, even though they agree with me.

Whatever happens, I won't fall out with my brother over it. I know his heart is in the right place. I don't believe in the afterlife, so I don't think my mother is judging us from heaven or anything like that, but it just doesn't sit well with me. I know she would hate anyone taking down her headstone and replacing it with a "better" one. Before she died, she talked to us all about how she wanted her funeral and boy was she specific

We did everything she asked and gave her a great send off and I think she just assumed that she didn't have to talk about her headstone because it is the done thing that her name would've been added with her husband's.

Sorry for the essay but it feels good to get it all out

baaba maal · 27-03-2017 6:37pm

I have to say that I disagree with the sentiment expressed by many here that you shouldn't fall out with your brother and therefore to prevent this,you should let him remove the current headstone. I would think it is highly unusual to replace headstones unless damaged or poor quality stone that is visibly deteriorating. The onus should be on him to make a valid case (not just that he really, really wants to).
Unless your mother gave specific instructions to replace it (which you have clarified that she didn't) I would be vehemently opposed and would vocalise it too. There are many other ways your brother can show his love for his mother (and that can include donations to cancer-related charities).
There is also the wider family history issue- that headstone, including the image of the boat should be there for future generations to see and pay their respects at. Admittedly, I'm somebody who enjoys going around older graveyards to look at the historic aspect of remembering the dead. Imagine if every generation decided to replace the headstones put down by the previous generations as they saw fit?- it doesn't seem right to me.
Just to ask- is there something written on the current headstone that your brother wants to exclude for any reason? i.e. you are planning on adding more writing to the existing one- would it be identical text and drawing on the proposed new one? (and I'm only asking- I don't have an After Hours theory on it or anything!

freshpopcorn · 27-03-2017 6:42pm

If your brother can't see the logic in keeping the headstone.From what you've wrote I don't really know what you can do. Certain people think throwing money at something is the best thing you can do and it can be hard to talk them around.

JupiterKid · 27-03-2017 6:49pm

My mum is passed 27 years and her headstone, a minimalist black granite one, looks as fresh and relevant today as it did when it was erected in 1990. When my dad died in 2014, we simply added his details to the same headstone.

So - OP. I think you should get the original headstone amended. I hope you can come to an amiable agreement with your brother.

BTW sorry at losing your parents relatively young. It sucks.:(

Poor Uncle Tom · 27-03-2017 6:56pm

baaba maal wrote: »

I disagree with the sentiment expressed by many here that you shouldn't fall out with your brother..........

So you'd fall out with family, over a stone....

baaba maal · 27-03-2017 7:19pm

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

So you'd fall out with family, over a stone....

In my opinion, it is the other brother who is instigating any possible falling out.
Are the OP's wishes as important as the brother? of course.

Is it over a stone? well....it is over two siblings interpretation of how to respect the memory of their mother. The stone that was chosen by the now deceased mother. I think the issue is more complex than the OP simply conceding the issue to prevent the relationship with the brother from being affected.

Satts · 27-03-2017 8:32pm

Maybe your siblings woud be more vocal if they knew they will have to pay a share of the new headstone. On the other hand hint to your brother he will have to pay for it. Money always focuses the mind.

funkey_monkey · 27-03-2017 11:04pm

My thoughts on this is that this brother who lives in another country is compensating for his perceived lack of attendence of his mother during her latter years as he was living in another country.
The only way he feels he can make ammends is by splashing the cash.

I think your brother is being arrogant and insensitive. As he is living in another country and rarely visited the grave I'd have few regrets about standing up to him on this issue.

If he has got a guilty conscience that is his problem, but he cannot ruin the link between his mother and her husband because of it.

It is a sad state that some people know the price of everything and the value of nothing.

However, only you know if it is that big an issue to you to stand up to him. Do you visit the grave regularly yourself? How would you feel going to the grave and the headstone she designed and bought not being there? Would it annoy you - especially with him back living in another country and you looking at it every day?

I'm not trying to raise a row here, but I think your brother is being totally domineering here and if you feel so strongly about this issue you need to stand up to him.

The headstone sounds quite unique - most are standard things that look fine and are scribed with details. This sounds as if it is telling a story. I'm all for a bit of sentiment.

It's not what the others are saying on this thread, but it is my opinion on the matter.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

funkey_monkey · 15-06-2017 11:12pm

Hi OP, just been re-reading this thread and was wondering/hoping that you got it resolved to your satisfaction?

ToddyDoody · 16-06-2017 6:49pm

Paddy Cow wrote: »

This isn't a case of who is right or who is wrong but how do we resolve this?

Save the one currently on your mother's grave.

Leave him put up the one he wants then replace it with yours and have his one destroyed. Deny all knowledge of anything to do with this, make it out as 'just one of those things'

Ghekko · 16-06-2017 7:10pm

Why is this brother making the decisions? I think it would be disrespectful to your mother to change it given what it meant to her. My mother had an outline of our lady engraved on her sisters grave as they both had great devotion to her. She is now buried with her and there's no way any of us would have considered changing it. I can't believe your brother would want to change the stone with your dad's boat engraved on it. Is he thinking of putting the same image and wording on a new stone? I'd understand if time had damaged the gravestone but it's just silly in my opinion to change it when it's in good shape. Is he planning to pay for it all - won't be cheap!
As your mum only passed away in April you will have another couple of months at least before the grave will be redone - that is if it needs to be cemented over. So hopefully you can resolve the issue. But if he is hell bent on getting a new stone and your siblings don't dispute it, let him pay for it!

ETA Sorry - only noticed your mum died last year, not just April gone. Glad you have come to terms with the decision. Still think your brother was daft to change the existing stone though!

Paddy Cow · 16-06-2017 9:37pm

funkey_monkey wrote: »

Hi OP, just been re-reading this thread and was wondering/hoping that you got it resolved to your satisfaction?

The new headstone is going ahead. I wouldn't say it's to my satisfaction but I've made my peace with it now. At the time I posted this thread, I was really angry, hurt, emotional etc. I'm glad I posted it and I'm glad I had it out with my brother because now I can move on.

If I hadn't said it to him, my emotions would've festered and I'd probably have exploded at some stage in the future, which would be pointless. We've had many conversations about it since and while he knows I don't agree with it, I'm not going to harp on about it. He really does think he's doing the best by his Mum.

When I posted this thread, some posters said that it's just a headstone, don't fall out, you're mother wouldn't want that etc and at the time I wanted to slap those posters

But time calms the emotions and all that's true. I think Mum would be proud of us both - me for standing up for her and my brother for doing what he genuinely thinks is right. We can both be hot headed but we sorted it without falling out and she would be happy with that

Thanks to everyone who posted (even if I didn't want to hear it at the time) and thank you for remembering. That's really nice and I appreciate it

Nekarsulm · 17-06-2017 12:03am

Keep the old stone, it's too much of your family history to let the stone mason just cart it away.
If I was in your situation, that's what I'd do anyway.

funkey_monkey · 17-06-2017 12:19am

Yes - what is happening to the old headstone? I hope you are getting to keep it yourself?

jcd5971 · 17-06-2017 12:24am

Paddy Cow wrote: »

Thanks for all the advice.

I don't want to fall out with my brother but it's hard to reach a compromise when we're at such polar opposites. I think the grave should be left as my mother left it and he wants to modernise it. By modernising it, he means changing everything.

It would be easier to accept his changes if he visited the grave on a regular basis but he doesn't. He's hardly visited since my Dad died and never did any up keep. He doesn't live in the country and I can't see him keeping the grave in good keep in the future.

It's not even a year since our Mum died and I think it's grief that has him acting this way. He wants to give her the best send off he thinks she deserves but he doesn't see that she already did that nearly 30 years ago when she decided on the grave of her and her husband.

I won't fall out with him over it and if he wants to go ahead with it I won't stop him but once he changes the grave his mother chose, there's no going back.

Maybe I'm being over dramatic but this is an emotional topic at the moment and I appreciate advice

take the old gravestone down, let him put up his new one, then when he ****s off out of the country baack to some hole never to return here again, but back up the headstone your mam wanted for her husband and update it with her details.

these family members who try to justify their guilt for never being around are annoyoing trying to make one big gesture, dont be bullied by them.

sorry for your loss also

Update old headstone or get a new one?

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