Gorse on Land: Fines or Penalties

ihatewinter · 20-04-2015 9:18pm #1

Hey is it true that a farmer will be fined for having gorse on their land. I read somewhere that a farmer will be fined 50% of their total Basic Payment Scheme if they have a huge covering of gorse Is this true?

Connemara Farmer · 20-04-2015 10:02pm

ihatewinter wrote: »

Hey is it true that a farmer will be fined for having gorse on their land. I read somewhere that a farmer will be fined 50% of their total Basic Payment Scheme if they have a huge covering of gorse Is this true?

Gorse/furze/whins are classified as scrub and therefore ineligible for payment in SFP/BPS. So you must either red line it out of your maps, or if that's a job of work you can take out a % figure of that field/area for scrub when returning your application to the dept.

You can argue the case that a % of the area covered in gorse is grazeable, if it's the tall type and if there is actually grass underneath. Creeping gorse that spreads like a carpet is different. You should be aware that an inspector will call out if you claim a % of an area covered in scrub is grazeable. If they see other breeches on their visit they won't ignore them, something to be aware of.

There are fines for declaring ineligible land as eligible, I believe they work on a % basis and start to get serious at either 3 or 5 % I can't remember which. If it's found that 20% of the land you have said is eligible for grazing actually isn't, then you get a 100% penalty.

If 50% is found to be ineligible then that farm is removed from the system I believe.

This year, if you have ineligible land that you want/have to take out, you can stack the entitlements from that land onto other land.

If you are below €150 and forecast to rise by 2019, you should also be aware that you will lower the amount of entitlements you hold presently and also raise their value.

That will have the effect of lessening the rise you may get by 2019, and also that rise will now be on a lesser number of entitlements.

The Dept don't tend to tell people that.

So, if you can sort out ineligible land (legally) before returning your BPS application, that would be the best course to take.

djmc · 21-04-2015 6:32am

At what stage does heather become ungrazeable to cattle is there a certain height etc that a penalty will be imposed.
If so l could see lads using weed lickers and such on bogs to control it which wouldn't be great for mountain hare and other wildlife that depend on it.
I thought up until recently that once you were grazing the area and actively farming it you were OK.

Birdnuts · 21-04-2015 8:51am

djmc wrote: »

At what stage does heather become ungrazeable to cattle is there a certain height etc that a penalty will be imposed.
If so l could see lads using weed lickers and such on bogs to control it which wouldn't be great for mountain hare and other wildlife that depend on it.
I thought up until recently that once you were grazing the area and actively farming it you were OK.

I'd assume based on the link below that heather is elgible so long as the area is being grazed. Cattle/sheep will naturally keep heather in check unless the area hasn't been grazed for a good few years and there is alot of tall stemmy stuff on it. Old stemmy heather will die back naturally after a certain length of time in any case.

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/land-eligibility-minister-pursuing-options-to-assist-farmers-with-marginal-lands/

djmc · 21-04-2015 11:06am

Birdnuts wrote: »

I'd assume based on the link below that heather is elgible so long as the area is being grazed. Cattle/sheep will naturally keep heather in check unless the area hasn't been grazed for a good few years and there is alot of tall stemmy stuff on it. Old stemmy heather will die back naturally after a certain length of time in any case.

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/land-eligibility-minister-pursuing-options-to-assist-farmers-with-marginal-lands/

According to the Minister in Ireland, the main type of vegetation other than grasses is heather and this continues to be eligible for payment where it is grazable.

Its the definition of where it is grazable that I am worried about.
I have already heard of people here and on boards and others being cut in sfp for having heather on their lands.
With very harsh penalty coming in with the new scheme I would rather be sure first and do something about it rather than finding out when a department man is doing a cross compliance inspection.
Rushes will also be problematic to control without spray on wet years.

Birdnuts · 21-04-2015 11:54am

djmc wrote: »

According to the Minister in Ireland, the main type of vegetation other than grasses is heather and this continues to be eligible for payment where it is grazable.

Its the definition of where it is grazable that I am worried about.
I have already heard of people here and on boards and others being cut in sfp for having heather on their lands.
With very harsh penalty coming in with the new scheme I would rather be sure first and do something about it rather than finding out when a department man is doing a cross compliance inspection.
Rushes will also be problematic to control without spray on wet years.

I can only relate to the commonages in the area I farm. The heather is grazed and consists of low shoots that is clearly grazeble under any definition of the word. Heather, unlike gorse takes a long time to grow to any significant height and even then has a short growth profile. On the commonages round here the taller plants only occurs in very steep gullies that can't be grazed anyway. In any case most commonages are designated in some way and heather is an integral part of that designation under the habitat/birds directive and therefore a farmer cannot be penalized via his/her SFP for having it under EU/CAP rules(as discussed in the GAEC thread recently) - no matter what some numpty from the Dept might say.

johndeere3350 · 21-04-2015 11:35pm

I've seen a few lads clearing rushes and briars out of places as there getting fined on there payments.
Which I would see as no bad thing as I don't like seeing all these acres just overgrown with rushes.
Is it just a random person gets fined or does everyone??
Just find it odd that some people clear up the areas where alot of them go untouched

Birdnuts · 21-04-2015 11:57pm

johndeere3350 wrote: »

Is it just a random person gets fined or does everyone??
Just find it odd that some people clear up the areas where alot of them go untouched

It appears to be pretty random atm. Probably a reflection of the mess the Dept has made of the whole issue. In addition some landowners are not within the relevant SFP system so none of this applies to them.

sandydan · 24-04-2015 1:30pm

thing to remember here is its the percentage of ineligible ground in the parcel size that is used not total claimed area, so in my case it went just over 3% of parcel size involved which was less than 2 ha, and i was fined

Bodacious · 24-04-2015 10:58pm

sandydan wrote: »

thing to remember here is its the percentage of ineligible ground in the parcel size that is used not total claimed area, so in my case it went just over 3% of parcel size involved which was less than 2 ha, and i was fined

What kinda fine? I'm worried .. Is there any machine like a mulcher or petrol driven hand held /wheeled rotavator like yoke to hire that would tear up creeping furze

Birdnuts · 24-04-2015 11:40pm

sandydan wrote: »

thing to remember here is its the percentage of ineligible ground in the parcel size that is used not total claimed area, so in my case it went just over 3% of parcel size involved which was less than 2 ha, and i was fined

R U sure about that?? Seem to be at odds with the stuff I've read in the farming press on the matter recently plus what my own planner has told me. That would suggest that someone could be fined for having farm buildings, roadways etc. even when they have excluded them from their claim. Maybe I've misunderstood your point but that does sound rather odd

PS: Just after reading on the IFJ facebook that half of all LPIS fine appeals were succesfull. Another indication of the ineptitude of the Dept on this matter in terms of their inspection criteria.

sandydan · 27-04-2015 11:11pm

the piece of ground exceeded the percentage allowed , but what made me mad was the fact that it was based on percentage of size of the parcel involved not total as i thought it would be. when i say fine i should have said my payments was reduced by that amount,
i used a digger bucket converted to a transport box to tear out the furze its not got a great root grip, or just pull them out with tractor and tow chain like neighbour did, use gloves or get some pocket money hungry teenager to do it:) how about getting a digger to turn over sod and receeding

John_Rambo · 27-04-2015 11:23pm

sandydan wrote: »

or get some pocket money hungry teenager to do it:)

Me as a teenager on a relations farm! Some work out, better than any gym! It's no wonder that farmers make good strength athletes (Sean O'Brien).

Very surprised at the admissions on this thread before the it was cleaned up and that farming people are unaware of the dates/nesting season etc.. . Connemara Farmer's on the ball. Finger on the pulse. Should he not be a moderator? He's a good articulate representative.

sandydan · 27-04-2015 11:35pm

maybe i should have advised to stock it with 4 horses to half acre, they will devour it,all perfectly leagal, some say it makes their meat tastier, horse burgers i presume, now where are they sold

Gorse on Land: Fines or Penalties

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