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Star Trek: Picard - Amazon Prime [** POSSIBLE SPOILERS **]

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Comments

  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,585 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Star Trek has always been “woke”. Especially before the term “woke” existed.


    The problems with Picard had nothing to do
    With forced diversity and a lot to do with bad writing.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,805 ✭✭✭Evade


    There is a trend to use "look how woke we are" as marketing and "you still don't like x you must be an (insert appropriate prefix)ist" as a deflection when other criticisms are brought up.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,035 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    I'd be happy if discussions stuck to those other criticisms. Then we could have an actual discussion. When the totality of a criticism post is some gender ratio bean counter complaining that there are "too many wimmin" (despite there being fewer women than men on the show, just more women than they are used to seeing in a typical male majority genre), then they can **** off.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,805 ✭✭✭Evade


    How often do the threads here devolve into "too many women?"


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,404 ✭✭✭Justin Credible Darts


    Evade wrote: »
    How often do the threads here devolve into "too many women?"


    not sure, but there is a case of not so much too many women but too few men.




    The main "men" on the show were Lorca....gone
    Pike....gone
    Spock...gone
    Saru...he plays an alien
    Stamets is really the main male character going into season 3....not sure if ash is still involved.


    I think season 3 needs more stronger characters, another season of nothing but michael michael , michael, will see ratings plummet more as SNW will do better


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Evade wrote: »
    There is a trend to use "look how woke we are" as marketing and "you still don't like x you must be an (insert appropriate prefix)ist" as a deflection when other criticisms are brought up.

    Where? Not being glib but the most I've seen has been Stewart talking about Trek in times of Brexit or Trump, neither of which are "woke". Political yes but can't be conflated with so called "identity politics". Last case I've seen over using "woke" to deflect from criticism was Oceans 8, which nobody have a shít about anyway. I'm talking either members of the production team or even respectable outlets. Cos Twitter is to debate what the Comments section are to news websites. Has Kurtzman, Chabon or Paradise made defensive comments to that effect?


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,585 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Evade wrote: »
    There is a trend to use "look how woke we are" as marketing and "you still don't like x you must be an (insert appropriate prefix)ist" as a deflection when other criticisms are brought up.

    I don’t agree. I haven’t seen any marketing of Picard based on diversity, all the trailers were focused on Picard. The characters just happen to be diverse and the political messaging was a little heavy handed at times, but that’s nothing new for Trek.

    The actual problem I see is that their is an anti PC online sentiment at high alert for what they see as “PC gone mad” which has evolved into the more subtle “Anti wokeness”.

    There are legitimate criticisms of both Discovery and Picard, but the fact that the casts are diverse or the gender/colour/name of the main character is “woke” should never be one of them.

    The writing on both series wasn’t good enough. I couldn’t care less if the main character was a purple unicorn.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    If there was ever a lingering flaw regards representation, it has arguably been the lack of proper alien cultures - only lately addressed with Saru. Presumably forced by budget constraints in the past - and the reluctance for most actors to spend 4 million hours in makeup every shoot - but for a glorious Federation where all races club together, the ships have always been noticeably a humans-only club (and the Mirror Universe in many ways skewered this Terran centric makeup).

    Discovery at least had the wriggle room to have a few more properly alien heads knocking about the bridge, which made for a nice change. Some really interesting designs in those various reaction shots (with the most striking, Airium, even graduating to having some lines & a plot focus)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,035 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    To quote Star Trek VI: "Human rights.' Why the very name is racist. The Federation is no more than a 'homo sapiens' only club" :pac:

    It's quite odd when you think about it. Earth is the capital/headquarters for everything despite the Federation having 3 other founding members on equal footing (and Vulcans being the most advanced of the 4 at the time the Federation was founded). Things like Earth being in "Sector 001" or the alpha/beta quadrant dividing line running through the Sol system. A more realistic setup would have the pillar institutions of the Federation split across the 4 founding worlds at the very least.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,092 ✭✭✭Rawr


    pixelburp wrote: »
    Discovery at least had the wriggle room to have a few more properly alien heads knocking about the bridge, which made for a nice change. Some really interesting designs in those various reaction shots (with the most striking, Airium, even graduating to having some lines & a plot focus)

    That's one of those things I kind of really liked in Discovery and felt like a call back to The Motion Picture where they got adventurous with the various non-human species of the Enterprise crew (thanks to a bigger budget no less)
    I guess that's part of why I liked Saru. Having exotic aliens don the uniform felt more "Starfleet" than yet another generic human from Earth.

    Picard could have done with another alien in the crew. It was a very human affair, and they certainly had the budget to make one of them an interesting alien species. Maybe even a member of Saru's race...since they know how to do that makeup from Discovery.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,738 ✭✭✭✭TheValeyard


    I really like Saru and he has such an interesting background.

    Not to mention it seems his species are edible.

    All eyes on Kursk. Slava Ukraini.



  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,404 ✭✭✭Justin Credible Darts


    Stark wrote: »
    Things like Earth being in "Sector 001" or the alpha/beta quadrant dividing line running through the Sol system. A more realistic setup would have the pillar institutions of the Federation split across the 4 founding worlds at the very least.


    This has always annoyed me, yes, its a tv show and not to be taken serious, but you have to wonder how or why the humans get sector 001.


    If we are to believe trek and the other founding members like the vulcans were traveling space long before the humans, what did the vulcans call that sector.


    Have earth as sector 001 makes no sense.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,805 ✭✭✭Evade


    Looking at Enterprise Humans were instrumental in bringing the other races together, they were overtly hostile to each other before Archer. Creating a new unified system for navigation would be politically easier than everyone adopting the Vulcan system for example. Since Earth was so instrumental in the founding and could be seen as the most neutral making it the defacto capital planet and having Starfleet HQ, the council, and the office of the President there doesn't seem unrealistic.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,092 ✭✭✭Rawr


    Evade wrote: »
    Looking at Enterprise Humans were instrumental in bringing the other races together, they were overtly hostile to each other before Archer. Creating a new unified system for navigation would be politically easier than everyone adopting the Vulcan system for example. Since Earth was so instrumental in the founding and could be seen as the most neutral making it the defacto capital planet and having Starfleet HQ, the council, and the office of the President there doesn't seem unrealistic.

    I had the old Star Trek Technical Manuals, and although they weren’t cannon, they did illustrate the Federation having an artificially built Capital space-station, which housed Starfleet Command and all of the other trappings of Federation Government.

    Seemed like an interesting idea, sort of place it at a logistical crossroads of Federation space with fair representation of all member worlds.

    I was kind of surprised to find Earth to be the capital when they reveal this in the TNG era. It just seemed odd that Earth would be the center of absolutely everything in the Federation. Would have been more interesting if Vulkan or Alpha Centari was the capital, with Earth just being the hub of Starfleet.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,805 ✭✭✭Evade


    Didn't STIV, not TNG establish Earth was the capital?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,759 ✭✭✭Inviere


    Stark wrote: »
    Earth is the capital/headquarters for everything despite the Federation having 3 other founding members on equal footing (and Vulcans being the most advanced of the 4 at the time the Federation was founded). Things like Earth being in "Sector 001" or the alpha/beta quadrant dividing line running through the Sol system. A more realistic setup would have the pillar institutions of the Federation split across the 4 founding worlds at the very least.

    It can make sense if you rationalise it/theorise on it a bit.

    The Federation was formed from rocky roots. The Vulcans, Andorians, Tellarites, and Humans. The first three, hated each other, and were at war several times. The various efforts of Archer & co in Enterprise, sewed the seeds of truce, ultimately paving the way for peace, and the coming together of all four races to form what would become the Federation.

    I imagine it was a gesture of faith from the warring three, to base the center of operations on the most 'neutral' of the four worlds...Earth. That way none of the three former enemies would have an advantage, and all four parties would be equal participants. From there, the standardised mapping of space would begin, with the center of operations being Sector 001, and so forth.

    I've no issue with it really, thinking of it this way makes canonical sense in my head so no big deal.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,092 ✭✭✭Rawr


    Evade wrote: »
    Didn't STIV, not TNG establish Earth was the capital?

    My bad, it was indeed Voyage Home establishing this, the Federation President was there and everything:

    180?cb=20120317033049&path-prefix=en

    On reflection I guess they had been establishing this since the Motion Picture with Starfleet Command and everything.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,738 ✭✭✭✭TheValeyard


    Rawr wrote: »
    My bad, it was indeed Voyage Home establishing this, the Federation President was there and everything:

    180?cb=20120317033049&path-prefix=en

    On reflection I guess they had been establishing this since the Motion Picture with Starfleet Command and everything.

    I preferred President Kurt :D

    All eyes on Kursk. Slava Ukraini.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,092 ✭✭✭Rawr


    I preferred President Kurt :D

    350?cb=20100605230953&path-prefix=en

    Me too :D
    When I later realised that under the makeup he was the same actor who played Red Foreman in That 70's Show, all I could see on later viewings was "President Red Foremand (With whiskers)"

    Admiral: We need to go and rescue Kirk and McCoy.

    President Red: We can't just burst into Klingon Space and start a war.....butthead.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,404 ✭✭✭Justin Credible Darts


    also established the presidents office is in Paris, as seen in DS9 when the president Jaresh Inyo is seen


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Jeri Ryan was on a Voyager podcast, and mentioned that Season 2 filming was meant to start in June, but had been pushed back for obvious reasons. No hard date from her perspective, with the presumption that shooting won't now start 'til Autumn at the earliest.


  • Site Banned Posts: 2,799 ✭✭✭Bobtheman


    Brian? wrote: »
    I don’t agree. I haven’t seen any marketing of Picard based on diversity, all the trailers were focused on Picard. The characters just happen to be diverse and the political messaging was a little heavy handed at times, but that’s nothing new for Trek.

    The actual problem I see is that their is an anti PC online sentiment at high alert for what they see as “PC gone mad” which has evolved into the more subtle “Anti wokeness”.

    There are legitimate criticisms of both Discovery and Picard, but the fact that the casts are diverse or the gender/colour/name of the main character is “woke” should never be one of them.

    The writing on both series wasn’t good enough. I couldn’t care less if the main character was a purple unicorn.

    I'd like to see a pure unicorn! I agree the story had many holes in it. Many ghosts in the machine. I was delighted to see so many of the old gang but I'm not sure I'd bother with season 2. I generally watch most trek series. The only one I skipped was large parts of Enterprise


  • Site Banned Posts: 2,799 ✭✭✭Bobtheman


    Nody wrote: »
    Don't proscribe malice what simple incompetence can explain. They don't hate Star Trek but they simply did not give a damn if it was Star Trek, Star Wars or Barbie the magical kingdom; all they wanted was to show how woke they can be with female empowerment and males are stupid. It's an exact continuation on the likes of Harley Quinn whatever it's called these days, remade Ghost buster movie etc. and it's built on the same exact false premise; take a big name, make it all women and show how equal you are as a director/writer. The problem is it does not matter if the cast is male or female if the writing is **** and all it does it alienate the potential audience who'd see it and cast a general bad name on the series, the ideals and the director in general.

    Then we get the bitch party afterwards about how more people should have seen it but males hated it (even in cases such as Quinn it turned out more male than female saw it at the cinema) and everyone who disagrees are misogynist pigs etc. The simple fact is if it's a ****ty movie/series it's a ****ty movie/series; the fact they made it all about female empowerment in a way a 5 year old would does not change the basic movie in and of itself and suddenly make it good. You can tell a good story with female empowerment, black empowerment or any empowerment story you wish to tell; but if you can't tell a story in the universe and lore that exist/you created in the first place no matter what message and empowerment you wish to provide it will fall flat. And that's the part that's been flying over the makers and their ilks heads for years now and create the classic go woke, go broke meme. Tell a good story first; worry about the cast gender or sexual orientation later but they reversed that and said if we get females it will be female empowerment and show the world without thinking on "Well who are we actually making this show for? Who's going to see it and are we telling a good consistent story here?". Hence back to the original answer; incompetence rather than hate for the franchise.

    I didn't think the problem was too many females . It's the whole Data element and the sudden appearance of his human brother that didn't work for me.l also thought the non appearance of Beverly crusher was a big loss. In the novels she was married to Picard . Lastly Stewart is past it and doesn't have the bon vivant that say shatner still has.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,404 ✭✭✭Justin Credible Darts


    agree, it was not the the fact she was a woman, or black, or had a mans name or whatever, it was because the show sucked due to that character hogging all the air time and presented as if she was above everyone else, everything had to revolve around her.

    It was its her show and everyone else was just there to make up the numbers, and if you complain you are sexist or racist, or not a true lover of trek or other such nonsense.


  • Site Banned Posts: 2,799 ✭✭✭Bobtheman


    I'm going through that review . It's amusing by itself.
    Just remind the synths destruction of Mars was that caused by the romulans?
    I agree with the plot holes this guy postulates. Sci fi is renowned for bizzare plots though but perhaps the Picard series went too far?
    Complicated plots seem to be all the rage these days.
    God I long for episodic television..seems like comedy is one of the few areas untouched by this trend.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,315 ✭✭✭✭AMKC
    Ms


    Bobtheman wrote: »
    I'm going through that review . It's amusing by itself.
    Just remind the synths destruction of Mars was that caused by the romulans?
    I agree with the plot holes this guy postulates. Sci fi is renowned for bizzare plots though but perhaps the Picard series went too far?
    Complicated plots seem to be all the rage these days.
    God I long for episodic television..seems like comedy is one of the few areas untouched by this trend.

    Me too. I don't think most people that have worked a long hard day want to watch something all the time where they have to start concentrating and remember what is going on this episode for the next one and thinking of what happened in the last episode.
    I would say there is plenty of people who just want to come home turn on the T.V watch a good Sci-Fi and not have to worry about what I said above. Thats the reason these never ending soups are so popular.

    Live long and Prosper

    Peace and long life.



  • Site Banned Posts: 2,799 ✭✭✭Bobtheman


    The plot was too convuluted and full of holes. It was as the reviewer said a 10 hour movie. But I would still not write it off as a diaster. It would have been better if they had gone for three episodes story arcs .
    Star trek was ahead of it's time in the 1960s.It was all somewhat ahead of it's time in the 1980s in showing quality acting from Stewart which was rare on tv and for rebooting a franchise.
    However now it seems hell bent on slavishly following massive story arcs and dark themes that kids can't watch.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,287 ✭✭✭✭Potential-Monke


    I'm just after finishing binging this. I was 12ish when I started watching TNG in the mid 90s or thereabouts. I loved it, my favourite Star Trek by miles. Just loved everything about it, still do. Great memories.

    Anyway, with that I was looking forward to this, and for me, it was brilliant. I was stuck to it. The last 2 episodes were just amazing.
    Well, until that point
    in the last episode.
    Thought they should have left it at the data scene, should have walked through the light, then a big Federation funeral. It's obvious it was a cash in for a second series and took away from it for me. If there isn't going to be a second season, I will have it ending there in my mind.

    Anyway, I read a few pages, and i have to say, until ye pointed out some things, I really didn't get a female empowerment vibe off it. I don't look too much into these things in general. It's futuristic, so I'm quite forgiving in what can/can't happen, as long as it entertains me. Which this did.
    I was managing to fairly hold it together during the death, and subsequent aftermath, until that fecker Elnor. He broke me with his big blubber! So i felt quite foolish afterwards for falling for it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,315 ✭✭✭✭AMKC
    Ms


    It's a pity that they did not future Simon Tarses in this. He would have made the perfect rebel pilot maybe with a hatred for Federation admirals after one of them ruined his whole career or maybe he was pardoned by another maybe even by Picard or a court and became a great captain. They could still have him in season two. What does anyone else here think?

    Live long and Prosper

    Peace and long life.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,092 ✭✭✭Rawr


    AMKC wrote: »
    It's a pity that they did not future Simon Tarses in this. He would have made the perfect rebel pilot maybe with a hatred for Federation admirals after one of them ruined his whole career or maybe he was pardoned by another maybe even by Picard or a court and became a great captain. They could still have him in season two. What does anyone else here think?

    That was an interesting omission. He would have been a good further exploration of life as a semi-Romulan in the Federation. Another hard-hitting TNG episode too, with a very solid moral message that really applies to these days.

    Tarses was an NCO, like O'Brien, so he'd probably have to go to the Academy again to enter the officer program to become Captain. Otherwise his highest possible rank in Starfleet would be Master Chief Petty Officer. I think I also read once that there was a further Admiral-like NCO rank called "Master Chief Petty Officer of Starfleet", which I imagined to be some kind of higher-up role at Starfleet Command.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,805 ✭✭✭Evade


    Starfleet as an almost pure meritocracy would definitely have an enlisted commissioning program.
    Rawr wrote: »
    I think I also read once that there was a further Admiral-like NCO rank called "Master Chief Petty Officer of Starfleet", which I imagined to be some kind of higher-up role at Starfleet Command.
    If it's like the real world equivalent it's a person to represent the enlisted personnels' concerns or well being in at the highest level of Starfleet Command decisions.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,116 ✭✭✭bazermc


    Just getting to watch it now.

    Isa Briones is absolutely stunning


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,648 ✭✭✭corkie


    Star Trek Picard Season 2 Starts Filming In January Confirms Star
    Actor Evan Evagora, who plays the character Elnor on Star Trek: Picard, has confirmed the show will begin filming season 2 in January 2021.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 60,897 ✭✭✭✭Agent Coulson




  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Holy shít. They're only going to do it. We all knew it was coming I suppose, especially after that Lower Decks cameo.

    I guess then this is heading for a completely different storyline, though presumably we'll see a return of Picard's motley crew from season 1.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,922 ✭✭✭GM228


    Oh goodie, my 2018 wish is coming true:-
    GM228 wrote: »
    Great news, whilst so many plots and cameos are an option the one cameo I would really like to see is John de Lancie, for me that would be the icing on the cake, even in his old age Picard being tormented by Q.....

    Didn't Q once say he never got tired of playing games.

    https://twitter.com/johndelancie/status/1379154132532142090?s=19


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,055 ✭✭✭The_Wanderer


    A great present for First Contact Day!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 60,897 ✭✭✭✭Agent Coulson


    Does my old look make you feel better my really old friend Jean-Luc or something like that so that can show why Q/John de Lancie aged as well.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,805 ✭✭✭Evade


    I'm calling it now, Q gives Picard the opportunity to save Jack Crusher.

    After his slight senility made hom think Data was his best friend he realised most of his regret was still centred around Jack his actual last best friend.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,143 ✭✭✭ilovesmybrick



    Oh. I enjoyed that, what a great surprise! Especially since I just dropped in to give out about the Disco trailer!


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,092 ✭✭✭Rawr


    GM228 wrote: »

    Is it just me, or did John de Lancie's voice automatically come to mind while reading that tweet?


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Evade wrote: »
    I'm calling it now, Q gives Picard the opportunity to save Jack Crusher.

    After his slight senility made hom think Data was his best friend he realised most of his regret was still centred around Jack his actual last best friend.

    The Stargazer in the trailer feels like a potential clue. Potentially. In which case, if there's time travel will they have another young Picard (what's Tom hardy up to these days?) or just have Stewart walking around Quantum Leap style.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,143 ✭✭✭ilovesmybrick


    pixelburp wrote: »
    if there's time travel will they have another young Picard (what's Tom hardy up to these days?) or just have Stewart walking around Quantum Leap style.

    I will not accept anything else but Tapestry style Picard walking around!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,805 ✭✭✭Evade


    Hopefully they don't do what the Irishman did. DeNiro's face was fine but he, and Stewart, are at that age where the move like they're old.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,315 ✭✭✭✭AMKC
    Ms


    Oh this is great. I just hope they do not ruin Q the way they ruined Picard or Data is season 1.

    I can see it now Q comes back and says I knew it you humans made a mess of it I should have just ended it back then for you all.
    But no I gave you a second chance because you said the human race was worth it now look at you not even human anymore. You are on android like your android Data. Oh by the way where is Micro Brain and Golden face anyway?

    Live long and Prosper

    Peace and long life.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,143 ✭✭✭ilovesmybrick


    Seeing as Guinan is supposed to be coming back in this season, and we now know that Q is going to be present, the one thing I really hope they don't do is explain the history between Guinan and Q. I like that their antagonism is unexplained, or that we have no idea why Guinans wavy hands worry Q. Some things are best left alone!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,492 ✭✭✭EltonJohn69


    Seeing as Guinan is supposed to be coming back in this season, and we now know that Q is going to be present, the one thing I really hope they don't do is explain the history between Guinan and Q. I like that their antagonism is unexplained, or that we have no idea why Guinans wavy hands worry Q. Some things are best left alone!

    Rumours are that Guinan and Q are happily married in the new season.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,492 ✭✭✭EltonJohn69


    Oh. I enjoyed that, what a great surprise! Especially since I just dropped in to give out about the Disco trailer!

    Best not to even mention disovery anymore.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,738 ✭✭✭✭TheValeyard


    Best not to even mention disovery anymore.

    Maybe Q can fix that.

    All eyes on Kursk. Slava Ukraini.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,382 ✭✭✭FFVII




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