Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Is boss unreasonable?

Options
12357…11

Comments

  • Options
    #122
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Dav010 wrote: »
    For those that understand, no explanation necessary, for those that don’t, no explanation will suffice.

    Indeed.
    In micromanagement, the manager not only tells a subordinate what to do but dictates that the job be done a certain way regardless of whether that way is the most effective or efficient one or if such instruction is necessary
    When micromanagers need something, they need it NOW. So, the lack of accessibility of their remote workers can seem frustrating or inefficient, and they’ll try to enforce rules demanding immediate responses to all messages.


  • Options
    #123
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Mellor wrote: »
    He didn’t let him know at any point.
    Nobody said anything about not being able to leave without letting him know :confused:
    He was asked to let him that he had left.

    “I had to leave because”
    “Can I leave because”

    Not to the same thing. Very different, so more made up nonsense from you.
    The fact your are struggle with basic ideas is starting to paint a picture..

    How did the boss know to ring him shortly afterwards...if he didn't know.


  • Options
    #124
    JimmyVik
    Registered Users Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    Sounds like a horrible company.
    Play it like this.

    I would ask for a SUBSTANTIAL raise straight away.
    Tell him you feel underappreciated , blah, blah , blah.
    If you get it stay.
    If you dont, leave.
    Stick to your guns and definitely leave if you dont get it.
    If you leave, you get to move on and away from them.
    If you get the raise and stay, then you are happy too.
    Either way your boss eother has to pny up, or come to the conclusion he can do without you and replace you for less.


  • Options
    #125
    Bass Reeves
    Registered Users Posts: 18,212 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    Mellor wrote: »
    He didn’t let him know at any point.
    Nobody said anything about not being able to leave without letting him know :confused:
    He was asked to let him that he had left.

    “I had to leave because”
    “Can I leave because”

    Not to the same thing. Very different, so more made up nonsense from you.
    The fact your are struggle with basic ideas is starting to paint a picture.




    Only the OP and the WFH guy were able to do the particular task. 1 out of 2 is 50%. one guy was now covering both positions. Simple curtesy to let a manager know when that situation pops up.

    In any situation as a manager you have to ask yourself is what the employee did reasonable. OP rang her colleague that can cover her position and informed that person of what was happening.

    It was an emergency and a serious one as there was an ambulance involved. I have learned over the years that some managers owners only understand confrontation. This owner/manager is a bully. They definately only understand confrontation.

    What happened when OP's parent died was totally unacceptable. The attitude to the present situation is unacceptable. If it was me in the first situation after the bereavement I would not have been in that week.
    If the situation arose again I ring him and the first thing he want me to do is ring the colleague who can cover me. I tell him he will have to do it. The wheel always turns

    He is sounds like he is peed off because OP was sharp with him on the phone. If he has OP mobile number is it a company one is he paying the bill. If he is not paying the bill he would not be answered on it for a few weeks.

    I once was in a situation with a manager who ring my phone and ask to speak with a colleague working with me and visa versa. We were mobile and he was constantly at it. It was a micro managing so he could find out if we were on site together. One day he rang and asked for my colleague John. I told him if he want to speak to John to ring John's phone and hung up. He rang John phone looking for me and I refused to deal with him on John's phone. I never spoke a word just shook my head to John.

    He was on the site within an hour accusing me of not being there when he rang. We had an almighty barney but he stopped that sh!t from then on with me.

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Options
    #126
    AnonymousUser1
    Registered Users Posts: 2 ✭AnonymousUser1


    On one hand maybe you should have dropped him a text saying that you have a family emergency and you already had your shift covered by another employee but he should have had some compassion that even though something was going on with family you took the time to make sure your shift was covered before leaving. Also the whole asking you to come in after your father had died? He sounds absolutely heartless. I had a boss who wanted me to move my medical operation because it conflicted with him going on holiday so I understand the stress of having a bad boss but also needing the money.

    I'd fully advise you to bear with it at the moment and look for employment elsewhere, maybe even with a bigger team but make sure to give three weeks notice and leave on good terms. Never know when you need a reference.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #127
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Bass Reeves wrote: »
    ...I once was in a situation with a manager who ring my phone and ask to speak with a colleague working with me and visa versa. We were mobile and he was constantly at it. It was a micro managing so he could find out if we were on site together....

    Lol thats Funny :D
    In an attempt to replace the physical visibility they used to have in the office, virtual supervision is attempted by enforcing a multiple-times-per-day reporting schedule, thinking it will keep employees paced and productive, but it only interrupts workflow and communicates mistrust.

    A boss is entitled to do whatever they likes. Some people think I have an issue with letting someone know what you are doing, or I think the Boss or manager is doing something wrong. That's not it.

    But I'm just amused at the micromanaging. I'm often involved in automation projects you often find a large part of people jobs, is pointless tasks, or duplication. You can often speed things up and simplify them by simply removing middlemen from the process. The resistance you meet is enormous.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4OvQIGDg4I&ab_channel=RyanOlson


  • Options
    #128
    thefa
    Registered Users Posts: 922 ✭✭✭thefa


    Iguarantee wrote: »
    I agree. However, it was apparent in that situation that the owner didn’t care about my attendance outside of company hours. He would have had full visibility of my timekeeping as I was typically in the office before he was.

    I would’ve thought it was more related to the potential of this becoming a more regular thing that some other team members may want to partake in too. Likely wanted to nip that in the bud. It does come across as a bit presumptuous to just up and leave because any decent manager would have let you go in the circumstances if asked. If a request for the 15 mins had been rejected, that would make them look bad.


  • Options
    #129
    Mellor
    Registered Users Posts: 39,100 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    beauf wrote: »
    How did the boss know to ring him shortly afterwards...if he didn't know.
    I imagine colleges speak to each other multiple times a day. Regardless off whether he knew or not, you said OP told him. That was false, like most of your comments.

    Bass Reeves wrote: »
    In any situation as a manager you have to ask yourself is what the employee did reasonable. OP rang her colleague that can cover her position and informed that person of what was happening.
    Leaving work in an emergency is completely reasonable. I don’t think anyone said differently.

    Manager asked for a heads up in futures. That’s not unreasonable. (If they lost the plot over this, it would be unreasonable).

    If the OP was in a fluster and just rang the first person they thought of. That’s also reasonable in a high stress situation. No reasonable person would fault that.
    But that’s not what happened. OP decided to intentionally not tell the manager. That’s petty. The whole workplace sounds pretty awful tbh.
    What happened when OP's parent died was totally unacceptable.


  • Options
    #130
    Iguarantee
    Registered Users Posts: 330 ✭✭Iguarantee


    thefa wrote: »
    I would’ve thought it was more related to the potential of this becoming a more regular thing that some other team members may want to partake in too. Likely wanted to nip that in the bud. It does come across as a bit presumptuous to just up and leave because any decent manager would have let you go in the circumstances if asked. If a request for the 15 mins had been rejected, that would make them look bad.

    I agree. My point on that owner not caring about my attendance outside company hours meant to convey that the owner was protecting the company/core hours policy and anything extra was a different thing altogether and that the two were not to be intermingled.

    He was indeed heading any repeat offences off at the pass. I fully understand why he did it and it was justified. However, I don’t want to work somewhere without flexibility, so I won’t be working there again. For what it’s worth, I was subsequently offered a job there on three separate occasions, all by people with the authority to do so. They are a great company to work for, every single person there was sound (almost impossible in my experience), but it’s not for me.


  • Options
    #131
    AmberGold
    Registered Users Posts: 1,284 ✭✭✭AmberGold


    I worked in a company many years ago (before mobile phones) where the manager would ring a phone in the workshop we worked, answer it & then put it on speaker going back to his desk to listen in for hours.

    We copped it after a few reprimands for minor incidents, we then had months of enjoyment winding him up and calling him all the names under the sun while he operated his covert scheme. A horrible person, he eventually was justifiably demoted.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #132
    JimmyVik
    Registered Users Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    Several years ago I worked in a company where I really enjoyed the work.
    I used to come nearly an hour early every day and up to 2 hours late going home. I never left on time or within even an hour of on time.
    Id come into the office at the weekends to get ahead of stuff. Really enjoyed the work.

    One Friday I was going away with a new lady for the weekend and was packing up to leave at 5:45. My official finish time was 5pm.
    The boss noticed this and said "Finishing early". I thought it was a joke and laughed at him and said, "I sure am" and was locking up my drawer as he called me into a meeting room. Then he made it clear that he wasnt happy. He said I dont just pack up and go early without telling anyone.

    I saw red and told him I do 9 hours minimum every day. I do weekends. And he is worried that im only staying 45 mins late instead of an hour or more. I left then.
    On Monday morning he called me in and said we needed clear the air talks. I said fine. And he proceeded to say "I'll overlook you leaving early, just this one."

    That day and each day for the rest of the time I worked there I left at 5pm. I also never, ever arrived before 9am again. If i was around early i could just go and read the paper.

    I was talking to a friend about it after and he said you give 110% for long enough and people assume its only 100% and that giving less than 110% is then considered short.

    That will never happen to me again.


  • Options
    #133
    JimmyVik
    Registered Users Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    AmberGold wrote: »
    I worked in a company many years ago (before mobile phones) where the manager would ring a phone in the workshop we worked, answer it & then put it on speaker going back to his desk to listen in for hours.

    We copped it after a few reprimands for minor incidents, we then had months of enjoyment winding him up and calling him all the names under the sun while he operated his covert scheme. A horrible person, he eventually was justifiably demoted.


    We did that too.
    We noticed the manager would leave his phone near our desks and then walk off. When we figured out what he was at he must have cried at the things we were saying about him. We would say things like "did you here what so and so said about him". "God, i wouldnt say that about my worst enemy". " I thought they were friends, but obviously not." Served him right


  • Options
    #134
    JoChervil
    Registered Users Posts: 2,004 ✭✭✭JoChervil


    beauf wrote: »
    How did the boss know to ring him shortly afterwards...if he didn't know.

    He could have learned about it in many other ways like noticing his absence, while getting to the office. Or he could have phoned him about something else, not his absence. And OP said that he hadn't contacted his boss.

    Asking for permission and letting the boss know that he is one man short at work are completely different things.


  • Options
    #135
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    I can't see that the boss did anything wrong here.

    The OP should have informed their direct supervisor of the need to leave for an emergency - whether by quick call, text, whatever - and the manager is well within their rights to remind the employee of that. I can't see where they were an asshole about it.

    The funeral thing is just being dragged up and into this incident, to make the manager look bad and to justify the OPs over-reaction to being pulled up this time.

    Let it go, is my advice. I wouldn't go throwing my toys out of the pram and looking for a new job, over this.


  • Options
    #136
    Iguarantee
    Registered Users Posts: 330 ✭✭Iguarantee


    JimmyVik wrote: »
    Several years ago I worked in a company where I really enjoyed the work.
    I used to come nearly an hour early every day and up to 2 hours late going home. I never left on time or within even an hour of on time.
    Id come into the office at the weekends to get ahead of stuff. Really enjoyed the work.

    One Friday I was going away with a new lady for the weekend and was packing up to leave at 5:45. My official finish time was 5pm.
    The boss noticed this and said "Finishing early". I thought it was a joke and laughed at him and said, "I sure am" and was locking up my drawer as he called me into a meeting room. Then he made it clear that he wasnt happy. He said I dont just pack up and go early without telling anyone.

    I saw red and told him I do 9 hours minimum every day. I do weekends. And he is worried that im only staying 45 mins late instead of an hour or more. I left then.
    On Monday morning he called me in and said we needed clear the air talks. I said fine. And he proceeded to say "I'll overlook you leaving early, just this one."

    That day and each day for the rest of the time I worked there I left at 5pm. I also never, ever arrived before 9am again. If i was around early i could just go and read the paper.

    I was talking to a friend about it after and he said you give 110% for long enough and people assume its only 100% and that giving less than 110% is then considered short.

    That will never happen to me again.

    F*ck me, talk about a failure to read the room on the part of your manager. At a minimum
    He should know exactly when you are contracted to start finish, seems like he didn’t know.

    Any job where you default to working late is not a job I want. I just don’t care about work enough to do it to myself.

    I worked in that type of environment for the last few years, I enjoyed the work and didn’t subscribe to the “finish early at 7pm” rubbish. I was blindsided my a former employer a few years ago (we made a deal as part of my entry negotiations, he subsequently reneged on it and basically told me to accept it or use the door).

    I swore I’d never again put myself out unless I was getting paid for it, I now work in exactly that environment. The irony is that i got a massive pay increase by moving, and I work less hours. Life is far, far too short to work somewhere that doesn’t suit you or makes you unhappy unless it’s a calculated means to an end.


  • Options
    #137
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    JoChervil wrote: »
    He could have learned about it in many other ways like noticing his absence, while getting to the office. Or he could have phoned him about something else, not his absence. And OP said that he hadn't contacted his boss.

    Asking for permission and letting the boss know that he is one man short at work are completely different things.

    Work was covered. The office knew, the boss knew.
    The only thing that didn't happen was the procedure wasn't followed to the letter.
    Did it make any difference in real terms. No.
    In micromanagement, the manager not only tells a subordinate what to do but dictates that the job be done a certain way regardless ... if such instruction is necessary.
    For the past decade, millions of managers around the world resisted the trend of remote work based on the fear that they wouldn’t be able to monitor productivity without being able to see the workforce in action in the office, asking the classic question of “How will I know that my workers are working, if I can’t see them?”

    Does it matter. No. Its just interesting how it ticks all the boxes.


  • Options
    #138
    B.A._Baracus
    Registered Users Posts: 11,179 ✭✭✭✭B.A._Baracus


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    I can't see that the boss did anything wrong here.

    The OP should have informed their direct supervisor of the need to leave for an emergency - whether by quick call, text, whatever - and the manager is well within their rights to remind the employee of that. I can't see where they were an asshole about it.

    The funeral thing is just being dragged up and into this incident, to make the manager look bad and to justify the OPs over-reaction to being pulled up this time.

    Let it go, is my advice. I wouldn't go throwing my toys out of the pram and looking for a new job, over this.

    Don't tell me, you're a manager yourself right?

    ...and a lovely manager you must be :pac:


  • Options
    #139
    JimmyVik
    Registered Users Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    Sometimes an emergency trumps everything.
    Dont know why anyone is worried about the OPs work or boss at all.
    An Emergency required them immediately. Didnt matter what happened at work after they went to attend.


  • Options
    #140
    Bass Reeves
    Registered Users Posts: 18,212 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    Iguarantee wrote: »
    F*ck me, talk about a failure to read the room on the part of your manager. At a minimum
    He should know exactly when you are contracted to start finish, seems like he didn’t know.

    Any job where you default to working late is not a job I want. I just don’t care about work enough to do it to myself.

    I worked in that type of environment for the last few years, I enjoyed the work and didn’t subscribe to the “finish early at 7pm” rubbish. I was blindsided my a former employer a few years ago (we made a deal as part of my entry negotiations, he subsequently reneged on it and basically told me to accept it or use the door).

    I swore I’d never again put myself out unless I was getting paid for it, I now work in exactly that environment. The irony is that i got a massive pay increase by moving, and I work less hours. Life is far, far too short to work somewhere that doesn’t suit you or makes you unhappy unless it’s a calculated means to an end.

    You be amazed how blind some middle managers are. My normal one was on summer holidays and I was reporting to another one called Pat. As we were mobile we had a meal allowance and a top up to it if you were working 10 hours. The top up just about covered a coffee and bun. We were on call and if I was called out I used to show the top up. Pat anyway decided that as the callout was a different time schedule I was not entitled to it. I reminded him that his interpretation was incorrect. We were having a few words over it and he told me he check.my interpretation of my entitlements to the top up.

    I said and I quote'' Pat that grand but if my interpretation is incorrect the next evening I get a call out on the way home in the evening( as happened this time) I go home for my dinner. If the company loses a contract that is fine by me''

    Never heard a word about it again. Had another head to head with him at a work meeting a year later over another matter, one of the senior management pulled him up at that meeting.

    In OP'S case here I have a fair idea what will happen next time. She will ring him and he will ask her to contact her colleague to act as cover.

    My attitude would be to tell him sorry in an emergency situation I make one phone, he wanted me to phone him he can sort it now. As well if his phone went to voicemail I leave that exact message.

    I have learned over the years if someone want to act the mick then I well capable of the same. The wheel always turns. This owner has not taught this one out. Yes he entitled to be s asshole but asshole's are there for to be kicked.

    I am not buying that he was not aware of her absence. I not buying either that he did not know she arranged cover. This idea you text in a situation like this is stupid as well. At least you can make a hands free call driving.

    OP I wait my chance and give it back in spade's

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Options
    #141
    smeal
    Registered Users Posts: 623 ✭✭✭smeal


    I don’t think the boss was unreasonable here.

    A boss is entitled to know if you not working when you are being paid to do so. It sounds like you’re also in the office so even from a health and safety perspective your boss should know if you are there or not. A text should have been sent at least particularly when you seem to already know that your company isn’t particularly flexible. Also you say your boss was kind when he called you but just simply wanted to be made aware that you had left.

    I emailed my boss a few weeks ago to say that I would be about 30 mins late online the next day due to an appointment. Basically the reply from my boss was no need to let him know of those kind of things, everyone is flexible these days etc. I have another appointment next week which will also mean I’ll be late online and out of courtesy I will email again or put it in his diary. You give some you get some.

    It sounds like you don’t work in a flexible working environment and if you do want such an environment where you can come and go as you please then perhaps you need to look for another job that offers that flexibility.

    Sorry about the loss of your dad. In any job I’ve ever worked in though the company’s bereavement policy has always been three days with any additional days to be taken unpaid or out of A/L. Perhaps the wake was not the time or place to bring up your return to work but the world isn’t all sunshine and rainbows unfortunately.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #142
    JoChervil
    Registered Users Posts: 2,004 ✭✭✭JoChervil


    beauf wrote: »
    Work was covered. The office knew, the boss knew.
    The only thing that didn't happen was the procedure wasn't followed to the letter.
    Did it make any difference in real terms. No.

    We don't know, if work was covered. We only know that he delegated his work. But do you know, if the other employee had time to do it in a short notice? That's why passing such information to manager is needed, because he can step in and do it himself or prioritise things to do.

    Also the manager probably wanted to know, how serious the emergency was to cover maybe for more days of absence. But OP didn't even allow for this information to be passed on abruptly finishing his call.


  • Options
    #143
    JimmyVik
    Registered Users Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    JoChervil wrote: »
    We don't know, if work was covered. We only know that he delegated his work. But do you know, if the other employee had time to do it in a short notice? That's why passing such information to manager is needed, because he can step in and do it himself or prioritise things to do.

    Also the manager probably wanted to know, how serious the emergency was to cover maybe for more days of absence. But OP didn't even allow for this information to be passed on abruptly finishing his call.




    Do you think he should have stayed in the office then until he got hold of the boss?


  • Options
    #144
    KeepItLight
    Registered Users Posts: 164 ✭✭KeepItLight


    smeal wrote: »
    Perhaps the wake was not the time or place to bring up your return to work but the world isn’t all sunshine and rainbows unfortunately.

    This is the exact reason the boss is unreasonable. You and other posters may not agree, and that's fine - but I think its a disgrace.


  • Options
    #145
    JoChervil
    Registered Users Posts: 2,004 ✭✭✭JoChervil


    JimmyVik wrote: »
    Do you think he should have stayed in the office then until he got hold of the boss?

    Of course not! Why do you suggest that? An information text would suffice.


  • Options
    #146
    JimmyVik
    Registered Users Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    JoChervil wrote: »
    Of course not! Why do you suggest that? An information text would suffice.


    He told someone. Presumably he asked them to pass it on.


  • Options
    #147
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    JoChervil wrote: »
    We don't know, if work was covered. We only know that he delegated his work. But do you know, if the other employee had time to do it in a short notice? That's why passing such information to manager is needed, because he can step in and do it himself or prioritise things to do.

    Also the manager probably wanted to know, how serious the emergency was to cover maybe for more days of absence. But OP didn't even allow for this information to be passed on abruptly finishing his call.

    Well its an emergency time is short. But You're really saying his emergency is less important than micromanaging it.

    They are a micromanager, he knows everything. If he doesn't then the micromanagement is a bit pointless, its just micromanaging with no purpose. Classic symptom.

    The other side of this is you don't trust a senior person with decades of experience to know how handle this. Their inability (real or imagined) and the lack of trust is also classic symptom of micromanaging. You don't trust their judgement, and you don't trust the person they delegated too. In fact you have to do everything yourself. Which is mismanagement.
    Micromanagement can be distinguished from the mere tendency of a manager to perform duties assigned to a subordinate.... the result is merely suboptimal management: although the company suffers lost opportunities because such managers would serve the company even better by doing their own job (

    At the end of the day its interesting how this is triggering people here. Both in not seeing micromanaging, as they do it, and can't see the issue. Others because they've experienced first hand micromanagement, and the negative impacts it can have.


  • Options
    #148
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    JimmyVik wrote: »
    He told someone. Presumably he asked them to pass it on.

    Unless of course everyone avoids talking to the boss...as the OP did. Cause and effect.
    “That’s my only real motivation — is not to be hassled. That and the fear of losing my job, but y’know, Bob, it will only make someone work just hard enough not to get fired.”


  • Options
    #149
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Is he wrong? No. Not on this occasion. I can't dash off without telling my supervisor. No one really can. He didn't threaten you, he didn't do anything other than clarify procedure.

    Now that's done, let's look longer. Ten years does deserve some grace in my opinion. Look after your staff and they look after you. You stayed with a boss you don't like for ten years. Why? That's a question that needs an answer. Micro managing is terrible for the staff member. Been there, been completely demoralized by it. This isn't it though.

    Third, and something I see missing in a lot of people. Your boss can be friendly, but never your friend. My supervisor is a lovely lady and very accommodating to staff. Were all ten years + though so don't require babysitting. That said, she has taken every single one of us to task over the years. That's part of her job. It's not personal and it's not fun, it's work.

    This op boils down to the wake incident. That was wrong. It was inappropriate. I wonder why he attended a personal event like that and then did that? Just a pure dick or lacks social skills?

    The op clearly wont be getting over it anytime soon so a new job is needed.

    Also, paramedics hate people following behind them in their own cars.


  • Options
    #150
    JoChervil
    Registered Users Posts: 2,004 ✭✭✭JoChervil


    JimmyVik wrote: »
    He told someone. Presumably he asked them to pass it on.

    Here we go again. Read back, I already posted what I thought about the whole situation.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #151
    Wildly Boaring
    Registered Users Posts: 3,631 ✭✭✭Wildly Boaring


    Niner leprauchan wrote: »
    Is he wrong? No. Not on this occasion. I can't dash off without telling my supervisor. No one really can.

    I can
    And in every job I've had for the last 15 years, I've been able to.
    (bar the one with the nutcase micro-manager)

    Adults in senior positions need to be trusted and be able to trust their manager.

    I'd never leave a job without getting it covered. I'd often leave and chat to my boss the day after and let them know I'd to nip off for something. It's a 2 way street. I'll often come in early for something that must be done. I've done many Saturdays or nights in my time without asking or being asked


Advertisement