Is boss unreasonable?

Dav010 · 23-03-2021 7:21pm

Whether intentionally or otherwise Strumms, you omitted the following from the passage you quoted from the CA page:

“Force majeure leave: you must notify your employer as soon as practicably possible that you need to avail of force majeure leave.”

The op was able to inform two others so it’s hard to argue that it was not practically possible to inform her employer instead/at the same time.

All the keyboard warriors seem to have lost sight of the fact that the op’s boss made no demands nor reprimanded the op, he asked that she inform him the next time she needed to leave early, during a “nice” conversation.

The only one making a big deal of this, is the op and the legion of warriors.

tommyombomb · 23-03-2021 7:28pm

Think people can have a bad day especially in lockdown. Only you can answer if boss is a douche

road_high · 23-03-2021 7:36pm

mosii wrote: »

Most employers think they own you. I used to work for my brother law,and he thought he owned me, until one day i told him where to shove his job. I think you should have a get out plan ,start working on it, a plan b . Use every days Hols you have, Try not to stress, even though its not that easy I know, put it down to experience, and start working on a plan. They will Never do you any meaningful Favours.

Do not work for family as they say and I’d put family owned businesses on the above list if at all possible.
Companies and organisations are always looking for good people. This job sounds fairly mediocre with difficult employers- OP it doesn’t have to be this way at all.

Strumms · 23-03-2021 8:28pm

Dav010 wrote: »

Whether intentionally or otherwise Strumms, you omitted the following from the passage you quoted from the CA page:

“Force majeure leave: you must notify your employer as soon as practicably possible that you need to avail of force majeure leave.”

The op was able to inform two others so it’s hard to argue that it was not practically possible to inform her employer instead/at the same time.

All the keyboard warriors seem to have lost sight of the fact that the op’s boss made no demands nor reprimanded the op, he asked that she inform him the next time she needed to leave early, during a “nice” conversation.

The only one making a big deal of this, is the op and the legion of warriors.

Practically possible... thats open to interpretation. I believe it was. The employer just could and should have facilitated them and not been petty but as we know... the managment serfs wont ever agree with that will they...

The op isnt making a big deal... only you are.. the legion of warriors comment confirms that for everybody.
100% disengenous contribution.

Dav010 · 23-03-2021 8:39pm

Strumms wrote: »

Practically possible... thats open to interpretation. I believe it was. The employer just could and should have facilitated them and not been petty but as we know... the managment serfs wont ever agree with that will they...

The op isnt making a big deal... only you are.. the legion of warriors comment confirms that for everybody.
100% disengenous contribution.

Did the employer not facilitate the op?

The op was able to inform others, but not the employer, so as soon as practically possible is not open to interpretation in this case, the op demonstrated that she was able to inform, before leaving.

Strumms · 23-03-2021 8:43pm

Dav010 wrote: »

Did the employer not facilitate the op?

No... the op was on their way to a hospital... the manager subsequently with everything going on was critical of them... errr not very facilitating... not close by any true definition of the word

Dav010 · 23-03-2021 8:48pm

Strumms wrote: »

No... the op was on their way to a hospital... the manager subsequently with everything going on was critical of them... errr not very facilitating... not close by any true definition of the word

How can you not be facilitating something you know nothing about? It’s nonsense.

Again, she was asked in a nice way to let him know the next time, unless I missed it, he did not say she could not leave, did he say that?

In relation to your post that the op isn’t making a big deal of it:

indie warrior wrote: »

I am really pissed off,

Am I over reacting or are they right to say that I was in the wrong as I didn't follow company procedure and contact them directly ?? I am really peeved off and seriously contemplating staying here. Interested to hear other people's views or if I should just put up and shut up

I dunno Strumms, seems she is to me.

Mimon · 23-03-2021 8:49pm

Iguarantee wrote: »

I previously worked at a company and enjoyed my work and the people so much that I’d come in to work an hour early (or more) every day to do extra work, both for my own enjoyment and also for the benefit of the company.

I did this for about 6 months until one Friday I left 15 minutes before the scheduled quitting time (I had started work my usual hour early). The reason I left early was to catch a train home, had I left work on time I would have been waiting for an hour for the next train. It was just a decision based on the logistics of the trains, nothing more.

The following Monday morning a senior manager at the company approached me, clearly at the behest of the owner, and politely but reluctantly asked me to read the employee handbook, specifically the part about core hours and my responsibilities as an employee RE start and finish times. He mentioned that I’d left early the previous Friday.

I never showed up early or stayed late again, neither by a minute nor an hour.

At the time I was quite annoyed as I felt I’d done my share of extra work to warrant some slack in this situation.

In hindsight, I wasn’t entitled to leave early without permission, no matter how many extra hours or work I did. Sure I may have done extra work, but that can’t be offset against regular policy or working hours simply because I felt it should have. The owner was doing his job, he wasn’t tolerating any slippage in timekeeping. The manager that approached me was managing his employee.

Whilst your boss may indeed be a tool, he is entitled to expect you to follow procedures for absence etc (I’m not saying he dealt with this scenario well).

Good performance does not equate to stored up credit with the company that can be spent as desired. Surely the company decides how your past performance can be translated into other things. I can genuinely empathise with your scenario, particularly because I’ve been in a similar situation, but your manager is just being a manager.

Also, from my experience working in small companies, the owner usually micromanages everything. I never want to work for a small company again. It’s only when I went to large corporations that I was allowed to manage myself.

A good employer/manager would relalise that they were up on the deal by having someone who will do extra hours/tasks when required and let the 15 mins slide.

Strumms · 23-03-2021 8:58pm

Mimon wrote: »

A good employer/manager would relalise that they were up on the deal by having someone who will do extra hours/tasks when required and let the 15 mins slide.

Funny thing is... for any boss who was ever cool with a problem or emergency at short notice... it was always remembered and paid back x2... for most colleagues it would have been the same ... people remember stuff like that and will be mindful that it should be flexible two way street...

When one party... say a manager is inflexible, and ignorent, employees learn to pull back....

Iguarantee · 23-03-2021 9:06pm

Mimon wrote: »

A good employer/manager would relalise that they were up on the deal by having someone who will do extra hours/tasks when required and let the 15 mins slide.

I agree. However, it was apparent in that situation that the owner didn’t care about my attendance outside of company hours. He would have had full visibility of my timekeeping as I was typically in the office before he was.

I have no ill will against the guy, he’s a serious operator who built the company from the ground up.

Just a lesson learned on my part.

These days everything I do, related to work, is invoiced, as I’m a contractor. So there are no blurred lines between contracted hours and extra hours. I much prefer this arrangement.

beauf · 23-03-2021 11:27pm

Dav010 wrote: »

Whether intentionally or otherwise Strumms, you omitted the following from the passage you quoted from the CA page:

“Force majeure leave: you must notify your employer as soon as practicably possible that you need to avail of force majeure leave.”

The op was able to inform two others so it’s hard to argue that it was not practically possible to inform her employer instead/at the same time.

All the keyboard warriors seem to have lost sight of the fact that the op’s boss made no demands nor reprimanded the op, he asked that she inform him the next time she needed to leave early, during a “nice” conversation.

The only one making a big deal of this, is the op and the legion of warriors.

Well isn't that the point of forum .... entertaining discussion. Would it have been better if everyone just answered the OP ... Yes or No ..

You're running out the door for an emergency and chase an ambulance..... any chance you could fill out the leave requests and leave sheets,...in triplicate... and get them countersigned... procedures are everything after all.

.... in the future when your time is running out. You'll look back and wish you'd spend more time in the job that wouldn't pay you sick leave.. and less time with your loved ones...

... so true...

beauf · 23-03-2021 11:34pm

Iguarantee wrote: »

I agree. However, it was apparent in that situation that the owner didn’t care about my attendance outside of company hours. He would have had full visibility of my timekeeping as I was typically in the office before he was.

I have no ill will against the guy, he’s a serious operator who built the company from the ground up.

Just a lesson learned on my part.

These days everything I do, related to work, is invoiced, as I’m a contractor. So there are no blurred lines between contracted hours and extra hours. I much prefer this arrangement.

So true. I really enjoyed contacting for that very reason.

Dav010 · 23-03-2021 11:49pm

beauf wrote: »

Well isn't that the point of forum .... entertaining discussion. Would it have been better if everyone just answered the OP ... Yes or No ..

You're running out the door for an emergency and chase an ambulance..... any chance you could fill out the leave requests and leave sheets,...in triplicate... and get them countersigned... procedures are everything after all.

.... in the future when your time is running out. You'll look back and wish you'd spend more time in the job that wouldn't pay you sick leave.. and less time with your loved ones...

... so true...

Where are you getting all this nonsense from about filling out leave requests and leave sheets etc? Just a reminder, this is the op’s account of the conversation which took place:

indie warrior wrote: »

Roll on Monday and boss was all nice asking how things were and then gets to end of conversation and says that I should have rang them and in future if I have to dash off suddenly i need to notify them directly!

Mellor · 24-03-2021 12:20am

beauf wrote: »

I said they were senior, not that they were his senior.

You are literally describing micromanaging.

Letting your manager know that you are not in work is not micromanaging.
A quick call/text/email is not overly focused on procedure. That's just a basic behaviour for anyone that wants autonomy.

Ironically, the people who can't manage that are the ones that complain about micromanaging. :rolleyes:

beauf wrote: »

You're running out the door for an emergency and chase an ambulance..... any chance you could fill out the leave requests and leave sheets,...in triplicate... and get them countersigned... procedures are everything after all.

Leave forms? WTF are you talking about.
The fact you have to make up lies like this highlights how week your argument is.

beauf · 24-03-2021 12:58am

Mellor wrote: »

Letting your manager know that you are not in work is not micromanaging.
A quick call/text/email is not overly focused on procedure. That's just a basic behaviour for anyone that wants autonomy.

Ironically, the people who can't manage that are the ones that complain about micromanaging. :rolleyes:....

Having all leave requests, go though one person, "the boss" regardless of efficiency is not autonomy. Being unable to make decisions independently is not autonomy.

I don't need to know if any of my team, or dept leave the building. I do need to know if it going to cause a problem. If they've handled it, it should never come to my attention. Unless its an ongoing issue with absenteeism. Which would be reflected in other metrics.

Many micromanagers accept such inefficiencies as less important than their retention of control or of the appearance of control.

In micromanagement, the manager not only tells a subordinate what to do but dictates that the job be done a certain way regardless of whether that way is the most effective or efficient one or if such instruction is necessary.

AmberGold · 24-03-2021 1:00am

Only option as I see it is to leave, I’ve met a lot of small business directors like him over the years and have left a couple of jobs for the same reasons you describe.

Some small business owners think they are single handedly keeping Ireland going while nickel and dime’ing and screwing everyone. I say small because with larger business’s you are one step removed from these types.

Had one MD tell me one time he was personally responsible for putting the Christmas dinner on 70 families tables. All while shafting the sales team out of commission, no pension, sick pay, no overtime payments etc. They eventually sold the business and gave the staff absolutely zero recognition.

I’d be surprised if you can’t match your income with all the usual benefits one would expect.

Dav010 · 24-03-2021 1:03am

AmberGold wrote: »

Only option as I see it is to leave.

Wow.

AmberGold · 24-03-2021 1:07am

Dav010 wrote: »

Wow.

Exactly, no benefits and being micro managed, there’s more to work life than this.

beauf · 24-03-2021 1:09am

AmberGold wrote: »

Only option as I see it is to leave, I’ve met a lot of small business directors like him over the years and have left a couple of jobs for the same reasons you describe.

In fairness hes been there a long time. I'm sure he's learned to deal with it. Its just in the moment of stress, straw, camel back etc.

AmberGold wrote: »

Some small business owners think they are single handedly keeping Ireland going while nickel and dime’ing and screwing everyone.....

Well there's something about being self driven. Attentions to detail etc.
But if you can't grow a business if you control everything. Its why a lot of small business never last beyond one generation.

Even in big organisations, if a manager is allowed to micromanage everything. They'll have a problem if that manager suddenly leaves.

heroics · 24-03-2021 1:12am

AmberGold wrote: »

Exactly, no benefits and being micro managed, there’s more to work life than this.

I still don’t understand where all this micro managing is coming from in this thread. It is not micro managing to ask an employee to let you know if they are leaving early.

Out of common courtesy I would always text/call/email my manager if I had to leave for any reason.

Again the OP said they approached her nicely on the Monday asked how things were and then asked that they call the next time. They were not told they had to fill out forms etc. Since they could call another staff member surely it was just as easy to call the manager. This is in no way unreasonable.

Mellor · 24-03-2021 1:20am

beauf wrote: »

Having all leave requests, go though one person, "the boss" regardless of efficiency is not autonomy. Being unable to make decisions independently is not autonomy.

What leave request?
Nobody has said anything about a leave request.

OP made the autonomous decision to leave. The request was that he lets his manager know about these decisions.
He didn’t need permission to leave. Boss didn’t request he ask permission is future.

Again, the fact you need to make up stories to support your point proves it’s completely baseless.

I do need to know if it going to cause a problem. If they've handled it, it should never come to my attention.

You can’t see how 50% of a task force being unavailable indefinitely has the potential to cause an problem? If you think that’s not going to affect productivity, its not a great endorsement of your method.

beauf · 24-03-2021 1:22am

heroics wrote: »

I still don’t understand where all this micro managing is coming from in this thread.....

First line of thread...

indie warrior wrote: »

....Boss is company owner, manager and very much micro manager, ...

beauf · 24-03-2021 1:34am

Mellor wrote: »

What leave request?
Nobody has said anything about a leave request.

OP made the autonomous decision to leave. The request was that he lets his manager know about these decisions.He didn’t need permission to leave. Boss didn’t request he ask permission is future.

Again, the fact you need to make up stories to support your point proves it’s completely baseless.

He did let the boss know, just afterwards. If you can't leave without ringing the boss. Then that is asking for permission.
If you can leave without ringing the boss, there was no need to mention it in the first place.
They could have said got that message, cheers.

Mellor wrote: »

You can’t see how 50% of a task force being unavailable indefinitely has the potential to cause an problem? If you think that’s not going to affect productivity, its not a great endorsement of your method.

I seem to have missed something somewhere. Why did 50% of a task force need to follow ambulances in an emergency situation.
When did this become a task force. Just what happened that so many ambulances were called.
I know there a boss, two in the office (including OP) and at least one WFH. That's 4.
I assume there's more than 4. 50% of them left on emergencies after ambulances...wow.

24-03-2021 1:41am

I don’t think what the boss did this time was unreasonable, it depends on tone. The op should have been planning leaving after the last incident.

beauf · 24-03-2021 1:51am

Deleted User wrote: »

I don’t think what the boss did this time was unreasonable, it depends on tone. The op should have been planning leaving after the last incident.

Of course not. Its his business the boss can do what he likes within reason.

Dav010 · 24-03-2021 8:07am

beauf wrote: »

Of course not. Its his business the boss can do what he likes within reason.

Most reasonable people would accept that an employer asking an employee nicely, to let him know when they need to leave early is way inside the line between reasonable and unreasonable. Not allowing her to leave, or reprimanding her for doing so when there was an emergency would be unreasonable, but we know from the op that the boss did no such thing.

beauf · 24-03-2021 8:22am

He did let him know.

Dav010 · 24-03-2021 8:29am

beauf wrote: »

He did let him know.

For those that understand, no explanation necessary, for those that don’t, no explanation will suffice.

spodoinkle · 24-03-2021 8:45am

indie warrior wrote: »

I work in an office we are a small team. I am over 10 years working here and would be classed as senior member of staff. Boss is company owner, manager and very much micro manager, they are quite difficult to work for.

Last week I had an incident whereby I got a call at 3pm 're a family emergency. Boss wasn't there but I rang a colleague WFH to cover something I was doing and told another colleague who was there, another senior member that I had to dash due to emergency
Two hours later while I was following ambulance to hospital boss rang, I said I couldn't speak as was in car and chasing ambulance, I was probably a bit short I was frantic at time

Roll on Monday and boss was all nice asking how things were and then gets to end of conversation and says that I should have rang them and in future if I have to dash off suddenly i need to notify them directly!

I am really pissed off, I've rarely missed a day off in over 10 years except when my dad died and the funeral was on the Monday and boss said to me at my dads wake sure you might come in on Thursday and see how you are !!

Am I over reacting or are they right to say that I was in the wrong as I didn't follow company procedure and contact them directly ?? I am really peeved off and seriously contemplating staying here. Interested to hear other people's views or if I should just put up and shut up

Your boss sounds similar to mine; he had forgot to leave the keys to the SHARED company car in the office one day, it was 7am so I didnt ring him and took my own car out on a job, he had emailed me by 9am advising i should have rang him and not took my own car, soooooo when the same thing happened 3 weeks later, i rang him at 6am: had to ring out the phone 3 times to wake him, lol sickened the wee cvnt

Mellor · 24-03-2021 9:05am

beauf wrote: »

He did let the boss know, just afterwards. If you can't leave without ringing the boss. Then that is asking for permission.

He didn’t let him know at any point.
Nobody said anything about not being able to leave without letting him know

He was asked to let him that he had left.

“I had to leave because”
“Can I leave because”

Not to the same thing. Very different, so more made up nonsense from you.
The fact your are struggle with basic ideas is starting to paint a picture.

I seem to have missed something somewhere. Why did 50% of a task force need to follow ambulances in an emergency situation.
When did this become a task force. Just what happened that so many ambulances were called.
I know there a boss, two in the office (including OP) and at least one WFH. That's 4.
I assume there's more than 4. 50% of them left on emergencies after ambulances...wow.

Only the OP and the WFH guy were able to do the particular task. 1 out of 2 is 50%. one guy was now covering both positions. Simple curtesy to let a manager know when that situation pops up.

Is boss unreasonable?

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