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Is boss unreasonable?

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    #62
    BingCrosbee
    Registered Users Posts: 260 ✭✭BingCrosbee


    Never ever work for a family owned business. There are loads of jobs out there, believe me, start applying for other jobs and you will not regret it.


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    #63
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Dav010 wrote: »
    Also, not sure why people think there is some entitlement to more holiday days and sick leave, and that this somehow makes her employer a knob, the op has stated she is well paid for the job.

    Lots of places have bereavement leave. That said if you don't have sick leave, its unlikely you have it. Its also unlikely anyone cares enough to give compassionate leave or similar.

    https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/leave_and_holidays/types_of_leave_from_work.html


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    #64
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,061 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    beauf wrote: »
    Strict adherence to rules with no exception's is classic micromanaging. Its not wrong, its just weird to do in this situation.

    At the risk of Godwins Law. One classic example of this was Hitler. Gave strict instructions not do anything without asking him first, then went to sleep with strict instructions not to be woken. D-Day started around midnight. Hitler didn't get up till 11am. No one did anything. I guess at least they followed the rules.

    Just a thought, using Hitler analogies when discussing a boss who asked an employee, nicely, to let him know when she needed to leave work prematurely, is profoundly inappropriate, as well as nonsensical.


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    #65
    Mellor
    Registered Users Posts: 39,069 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    beauf wrote: »
    Strict adherence to rules with no exception's is classic micromanaging. Its not wrong, its just weird to do in this situation.
    OP made no attempt to let the boss know he was leaving. He likely would have answered the phone if he tried. But a text or email would have taken seconds and nipped the whole thing in the bud.
    Instead OP rang somebody else (which took as much effort as called the boss would have), and he did this to purposely to provoke the boss.

    The absolutely fragility of comparing "please let me know in future" with Hitler.
    In people are triggered by that, they must really have to wrap you in cotton wool at work.



    To be clear, boss could well be a dickhead. But his actions here are pretty normal.
    Also, it's a bit naive to assume a description by somebody trying to provoke the boss, and paint him as a dickhead is an accurate one.


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    #66
    amdublin
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 20,648 CMod ✭✭✭✭amdublin


    I'm not entirely seeing the problem tbh...

    It is standard process for you to tell your boss when you have to leave the office early/in an exception/due to an emergency.
    In this scenario I would have set up for the task to be covered by X who was wfh (which the OP did). And then I'd quickly ring my boss and say I've a family emergency, I'm off now to follow an ambulance, I've got X covering everything.

    The boss just reminded the op of this process in my opinion. After checking in with them that all is ok first.

    Am not sure also about the funeral what the op wants. Standard bereavement leave for a parent is three days. I actually think the manager worded it well and with some empathy and understanding "see how you feel" (or something like that). You have to go back to work at some point unfortunately :( And tbh, me personally, getting back to routine helps me.

    Op when were you thinking about returning to work after your father's passing? Were you going to have a discussion with your manager or anything?


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    #67
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    I think you are reading too much into it.
    Rather than giving general instructions on smaller tasks and then devoting time to supervising larger concerns, the micromanager monitors and assesses every step of a business process and avoids delegation of decisions.[6] Micromanagers are usually irritated when a subordinate makes decisions without consulting them, even if the decisions are within the subordinate's level of authority.....A micromanager tends to require constant and detailed performance feedback and to focus excessively on procedural trivia ... rather than on overall performance, quality and results.
    Although micromanagement is often easily recognized...micromanagers rarely view themselves as such. In a form of denial similar to that found in addictive behavior, micromanagers will often rebut allegations of micromanagement by offering a competing characterization of their management style such as "structured", "organized", or "perfectionistic".

    There nothing wrong with people micromanaging. Its just inefficient on a number of levels.
    Many micromanagers accept such inefficiencies as less important than their retention of control or of the appearance of control.


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    #68
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Mellor wrote: »
    OP made no attempt to let the boss know he was leaving. He likely would have answered the phone if he tried. But a text or email would have taken seconds and nipped the whole thing in the bud.
    Instead OP rang somebody else (which took as much effort as called the boss would have), and he did this to purposely to provoke the boss......

    Well he informed two other people. One to delegate tasks, the other who was in proximity and senior.
    What its implied here is rather than doing that. They should have told the boss, then legged it. Leaving the boss to sort it all out.

    Avoiding micro managers is common. Its one of the central themes in the Movie "Office Space". People start avoiding things, that trigger a micromanagement loop.
    As I said at the start the OP should not be surprised by this, its normal. Especially if they've worked with the person for 20yrs. The only reason they are triggered is because they were under stress.


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    #69
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    It can be quite amusing if someone insists on micro managing, overloading them with issues.
    It triggers a cascade of micromanaging, burns them out, they'll get swamped, and they usually just delegate the task.

    But people can't be bothered, so they mostly just leave them out of the loop. Which is what the OP did. Causality.


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    #70
    Kur4mA
    Registered Users Posts: 2,215 ✭✭✭Kur4mA


    Your boss sounds horrible. Just on my principles alone, that is not someone I would want to work for. I'd be looking for a new job as soon as possible.


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    #71
    Mellor
    Registered Users Posts: 39,069 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    beauf wrote: »
    Well he informed two other people. One to delegate tasks, the other who was in proximity and senior.
    What its implied here is rather than doing that. They should have told the boss, then legged it. Leaving the boss to sort it all out.

    The person he told on the way out wasn't his senior. He reports to the manager.
    The normal thing to do is to let who ever you report to know.
    He doesn't need to find somebody to cover imo, but if it takes no effort then why not.

    I'm curious what kind of work you do if you think that's mirco managing.
    Do you also phoning in sick is micromanaging? These are pretty normal in any structured workplace.


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    #72
    KeepItLight
    Registered Users Posts: 164 ✭✭KeepItLight


    I cannot fathom how some posters here think that the boss's carry on is acceptable. The OP's father died.

    Would you think it would be appropriate if it was the OP's wife/husband? Or child?
    At what point does the boss's behaviour cross from 'protocol' to being an insensitive pr1ck?


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    #73
    OMM 0000
    Registered Users Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭OMM 0000


    indie warrior wrote: »
    I work in an office we are a small team. I am over 10 years working here and would be classed as senior member of staff. Boss is company owner, manager and very much micro manager, they are quite difficult to work for.

    Last week I had an incident whereby I got a call at 3pm 're a family emergency. Boss wasn't there but I rang a colleague WFH to cover something I was doing and told another colleague who was there, another senior member that I had to dash due to emergency
    Two hours later while I was following ambulance to hospital boss rang, I said I couldn't speak as was in car and chasing ambulance, I was probably a bit short I was frantic at time

    Roll on Monday and boss was all nice asking how things were and then gets to end of conversation and says that I should have rang them and in future if I have to dash off suddenly i need to notify them directly!

    I am really pissed off, I've rarely missed a day off in over 10 years except when my dad died and the funeral was on the Monday and boss said to me at my dads wake sure you might come in on Thursday and see how you are !!

    Am I over reacting or are they right to say that I was in the wrong as I didn't follow company procedure and contact them directly ?? I am really peeved off and seriously contemplating staying here. Interested to hear other people's views or if I should just put up and shut up

    I think you're overreacting.

    From what I understand you told two (three?) people you need to leave. Your boss is saying in future just tell him instead.

    That should be the end of it, but instead you're turning it into something big.

    It's not unreasonable a boss requires you tell him if you need to leave the office. It is unreasonable you have a problem with this.


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    #74
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Mellor wrote: »
    The person he told on the way out wasn't his senior. He reports to the manager.
    The normal thing to do is to let who ever you report to know.
    He doesn't need to find somebody to cover imo, but if it takes no effort then why not.

    I'm curious what kind of work you do if you think that's mirco managing.
    Do you also phoning in sick is micromanaging? These are pretty normal in any structured workplace.

    I said they were senior, not that they were his senior.

    You are literally describing micromanaging.
    A micromanager tends to focus excessively on procedural trivia...rather than on overall performance, quality and results.
    micromanagers rarely view themselves as such. In a form of denial similar to that found in addictive behavior, micromanagers will often rebut allegations of micromanagement by offering a competing characterization of their management style such as "structured", "organized", or "perfectionistic".

    Its no big deal either way. Its just interesting to see it play out, and if people can see it or not. OP shouldn't lose any sleep over it. They should be used to it by now.


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    #75
    amdublin
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 20,648 CMod ✭✭✭✭amdublin


    KeepItLight wrote: »
    I cannot fathom how some posters here think that the boss's carry on is acceptable. The OP's father died.

    Would you think it would be appropriate if it was the OP's wife/husband? Or child?
    At what point does the boss's behaviour cross from 'protocol' to being an insensitive pr1ck?

    It is very sad when someone dies. And terribly hard for everyone. But life does have to go on and people do have to return to work.

    Most large multi nationals have a standard three days bereavement leave of three days.
    Most people do tend to take more than this when a partner or child dies (a lot more, and understandable). They way they do this is they go to the doctor and explain how they are feeling and the doctor certifies them off work suffering from bereavement/grief/stress.

    You can't just not present to work. The OP did need to come back to work. The manager was saying, see how you are on Thursday for coming back to work.

    I don't think three days bereavement leave is unreasonable for a family run business to provide. Do you?

    Why do you think it is unreasonable for the manager to have a gentle return to work conversation with an employee?

    Saying all that if the op was not feeling well enough to go back they could have gone to their doctor as outlined above. But they did have to do something...


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    #76
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,710 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    KeepItLight wrote: »
    I cannot fathom how some posters here think that the boss's carry on is acceptable. The OP's father died.

    Would you think it would be appropriate if it was the OP's wife/husband? Or child?
    At what point does the boss's behaviour cross from 'protocol' to being an insensitive pr1ck?

    Three days bereavement leave is normal (though not legally required) for close family (mother, father, spouse, child). Anything beyond that needs to be discussed. And that's all the boss asked for.

    If someone needs a months sick leave after the death of a parent, then I'd be questioning their ongoing capacity to cope with any type of senior role.


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    #77
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Often there's there a lot of other things to be taken care off. Its just practical that people need time to deal with the practicalities of an emergency or a bereavement.

    Whatever ever about the lack of empathy. Its not just feasible to carry on as normal. Be that unpaid leave or whatever.


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    #78
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    ...If someone needs a months sick leave after the death of a parent, then I'd be questioning their ongoing capacity to cope with any type of senior role.

    Where did the months leave come from?


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    #79
    KeepItLight
    Registered Users Posts: 164 ✭✭KeepItLight


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    Three days bereavement leave is normal (though not legally required) for close family (mother, father, spouse, child). Anything beyond that needs to be discussed. And that's all the boss asked for.

    If someone needs a months sick leave after the death of a parent, then I'd be questioning their ongoing capacity to cope with any type of senior role.

    Nobody said anything about the OP needing a month off.

    The issue here is that the boss asked the OP about coming back to work on Thurs at his father's wake.


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    #80
    Sardonicat
    Registered Users Posts: 12,378 ✭✭✭✭Sardonicat


    amdublin wrote: »
    It is very sad when someone dies. And terribly hard for everyone. But life does have to go on and people do have to return to work.

    Most large multi nationals have a standard three days bereavement leave of three days.
    Most people do tend to take more than this when a partner or child dies (a lot more, and understandable). They way they do this is they go to the doctor and explain how they are feeling and the doctor certifies them off work suffering from bereavement/grief/stress.

    You can't just not present to work. The OP did need to come back to work. The manager was saying, see how you are on Thursday for coming back to work.

    I don't think three days bereavement leave is unreasonable for a family run business to provide. Do you?

    Why do you think it is unreasonable for the manager to have a gentle return to work conversation with an employee?

    Saying all that if the op was not feeling well enough to go back they could have gone to their doctor as outlined above. But they did have to do something...

    There is nothing gentle about having a return to work conversation at the wake of the person your employee requires bereavement leave for. It's insensitive and totally inappropriate. OP has said nothing to indicate they were going to just fail to present at work. There was absolutely no need to bring it up at the wake. And if you have ever received an emergency call like the OP did, adrenalin and panic and basic normal, human priorities dictate that your focus of attention is getting to where you need to be ASAP and not sticking to the letter of company procedure. Op wasn't nipping out early to attend to a minor domestic matter, there was a serious medical emergency unfolding. Someone who can't see that it is inappropriate to discuss returning to work at a wake or not capable of understanding the snap decisions and reactions that come into play in emergency situations must necessarily override protocol and procedure has something seriously lacking, IMO


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    #81
    colm_mcm
    Registered Users Posts: 73,387 ✭✭✭✭colm_mcm


    beauf wrote: »
    Where did the months leave come from?

    Another poster

    con___manx1 wrote: »
    If everyone carried on like his boss the world would just be a wnderfull place.
    After 10 years of service the op should be shown more respect than that.
    At the end of the day the boss set up the company to line his own pockets.
    I'm sure he doest really give a fiddlers about his employees if he talks to them like that.
    If he said to me I'd expect to see you in on the Thursday after my dad died I'd of takin a month off just to piss him off the insensitive prick.


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    #82
    amdublin
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 20,648 CMod ✭✭✭✭amdublin


    Sardonicat wrote: »
    There is nothing gentle about having a return to work conversation at the wake of the person your employee requires bereavement leave for. It's insensitive and totally inappropriate. OP has said nothing to indicate they were going to just fail to present at work. There was absolutely no need to bring it up at the wake. And if you have ever received an emergency call like the OP did, adrenalin and panic and basic normal, human priorities dictate that your focus of attention is getting to where you need to be ASAP and not sticking to the letter of company procedure. Op wasn't nipping out early to attend to a minor domestic matter, there was a serious medical emergency unfolding. Someone who can't see that it is inappropriate to discuss returning to work at a wake or not capable of understanding the snap decisions and reactions that come into play in emergency situations must necessarily override protocol and procedure has something seriously lacking, IMO

    Ok. That is your opinion. That is fine. A 60 second call to my manager is not a massive big deal to me tbh. I'd rather my manager knows and supports me in the emergency rather than having to post stuff on boards about it after the event.

    "sure you might come in on Thursday and see how you are" seems empathetic to me. While also giving him three days off for bereavement


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    #83
    Sardonicat
    Registered Users Posts: 12,378 ✭✭✭✭Sardonicat


    amdublin wrote: »
    Ok. That is your opinion. That is fine. A 60 second call to my manager is not a massive big deal to me tbh. I'd rather my manager knows and supports me in the emergency rather than having to post stuff on boards about it after the event.

    "sure you might come in on Thursday and see how you are" seems empathetic to me. While also giving him three days off for bereavement

    Or maybe you'd be so panicked and overwhelmed you'd be doing well to have informed someone as the OP had instead of just running out the door to chase the ambulance that your seriously ill loved one is being rushed to hospital in. And an adult who can"t understand this basic, normal human reaction at a time like that and isn't willing to let it slide under the circumstances has something pretty basic lacking.


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    #84
    C3PO
    Registered Users Posts: 3,742 ✭✭✭C3PO


    Dav010 wrote: »
    Also, not sure why people think there is some entitlement to more holiday days and sick leave, and that this somehow makes her employer a knob, the op has stated she is well paid for the job.

    No sick leave and 20 days holidays after 12 years is just miserable in this day and age. It would be a deal breaker for me.


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    #85
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,061 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Sardonicat wrote: »
    Or maybe you'd be so panicked and overwhelmed you'd be doing well to have informed someone as the OP had instead of just running out the door to chase the ambulance that your seriously ill loved one is being rushed to hospital in. And an adult who can"t understand this basic, normal human reaction at a time like that and isn't willing to let it slide under the circumstances has something pretty basic lacking.

    And yet the boss should be able to understand how the op had the presence of mind to inform two other people, but was too panicked to inform him?


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    #86
    amdublin
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 20,648 CMod ✭✭✭✭amdublin


    Sardonicat wrote: »
    Or maybe you'd be so panicked and overwhelmed you'd be doing well to have informed someone as the OP had instead of just running out the door to chase the ambulance that your seriously ill loved one is being rushed to hospital in. And an adult who cant understand this basic, normal human reaction at a time like that and isn't willing to let it slide under the circumstances has something pretty basic lacking.

    My reading is that the boss did "let it slide" and just reminded him if it happens again to keep him in the loop.

    Look it, it is a basic premise, that you keep your manager in the loop (directly yourself not through another person). How difficult is that? Will also ensure the manager knows what is going on and can support you as neccesary.
    Any adult knows this.


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    #87
    Skyrimaddict
    Registered Users Posts: 810 ✭✭✭Skyrimaddict


    indie warrior wrote: »
    OP here, just to say that when I got emergency call, I basically dialled an internal number to tell colleague, the other colleague who is there 20 years was at a desk which i passed on way to door, he was on a call after I basically shouted to him what happened as I was running out door
    TBH I wasn't even thinking of boss at time, I was frantic not knowing if my mum was alive or dead, there isn't a said protocol, if you are off sick which rarely ever happens you are supposed to contact office, he is just adding new protocol here that it had to be him to be contacted now

    I did send an email to him on Tue morning for the record and for my file, laying out the time line of what happened and saying that I thought that under the circumstances I felt I had covered all my bases to keep company unaffected and that I was sorry he felt that I was short with him when he rang although I was following an ambulance at the time and I wasn't considering his feelings

    The beravement point I made was to show what type of person they are. Shortly after I started working there about 12 years ago he clicked his fingers at me while calling me. I must say I almost lost the plot that day and told him under no circumstances never to click his fingers at me again, which he didnt
    He is a bully, I have seen the way he treats and talks to people

    I guess I will just have to weigh things up myself, I like my job, he pays me well ( albeit I would never have got any pay rises only I pushed for them, min of everything else as in 20 days hols, 30 min lunch breaks, no sick pay, no healthcover etc

    Thanks for all comments it was interesting to read both sides of the coin


    sounds like nearly every small business owner who is self funded and sees you as a person " taking money out" of the business.

    That being said, it doesn't sound like they were overly mean to you, the comment about your dad was very curt, but any time off that an employer has to pay for they will be.

    id agree with some posters here, take it on the chin, its his company and you've know what he was like for last ten years, but look to move out of dodge also


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    #88
    Iguarantee
    Registered Users Posts: 328 ✭✭Iguarantee


    I previously worked at a company and enjoyed my work and the people so much that I’d come in to work an hour early (or more) every day to do extra work, both for my own enjoyment and also for the benefit of the company.

    I did this for about 6 months until one Friday I left 15 minutes before the scheduled quitting time (I had started work my usual hour early). The reason I left early was to catch a train home, had I left work on time I would have been waiting for an hour for the next train. It was just a decision based on the logistics of the trains, nothing more.

    The following Monday morning a senior manager at the company approached me, clearly at the behest of the owner, and politely but reluctantly asked me to read the employee handbook, specifically the part about core hours and my responsibilities as an employee RE start and finish times. He mentioned that I’d left early the previous Friday.

    I never showed up early or stayed late again, neither by a minute nor an hour.

    At the time I was quite annoyed as I felt I’d done my share of extra work to warrant some slack in this situation.

    In hindsight, I wasn’t entitled to leave early without permission, no matter how many extra hours or work I did. Sure I may have done extra work, but that can’t be offset against regular policy or working hours simply because I felt it should have. The owner was doing his job, he wasn’t tolerating any slippage in timekeeping. The manager that approached me was managing his employee.

    Whilst your boss may indeed be a tool, he is entitled to expect you to follow procedures for absence etc (I’m not saying he dealt with this scenario well).

    Good performance does not equate to stored up credit with the company that can be spent as desired. Surely the company decides how your past performance can be translated into other things. I can genuinely empathise with your scenario, particularly because I’ve been in a similar situation, but your manager is just being a manager.

    Also, from my experience working in small companies, the owner usually micromanages everything. I never want to work for a small company again. It’s only when I went to large corporations that I was allowed to manage myself.


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    #89
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Iguarantee wrote: »
    ...Good performance does not equate to stored up credit with the company that can be spent as desired....

    Funny how rarely that works both ways.


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    #90
    mosii
    Registered Users Posts: 328 ✭✭mosii


    Most employers think they own you. I used to work for my brother law,and he thought he owned me, until one day i told him where to shove his job. I think you should have a get out plan ,start working on it, a plan b . Use every days Hols you have, Try not to stress, even though its not that easy I know, put it down to experience, and start working on a plan. They will Never do you any meaningful Favours.


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    #91
    Strumms
    Registered Users Posts: 24,837 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    SAMTALK wrote: »
    Hi OP , this sounds exactly like where I work. Family business but not one ounce of compassion for anyone

    I have seen people in work who had family on their death bed and they still had to come to work down to the last minute and miss out on precious time
    Anything out of the ordinary is just seen as an inconvenience for them . They don't get that life sometimes throws you a curve ball and work is not your top priority in some cases .

    Thing is, life throws the employer a curve ball and they need or want employees to go over and above, that is seen as a reasonable request and it’s almost like now they believe they are ‘entitled’ to hear YES as a reply each and every time now..

    For your health as an employee as an individual and a collective of colleagues it’s good to pull back... easier said than done when you have people with car loans, mortgages who are prioritizing the $$$ over the overall wellbeing of everyone and proper teamwork..

    Also..

    Force Majure Leave..

    Force majeure leave
    If you have a family crisis the Parental Leave Acts 1998 and 2019 give an employee a limited right to leave from work. This is known as force majeure leave. It arises where, for urgent family reasons, the immediate presence of the employee is indispensable owing to an injury or illness of a close family member.

    Force majeure leave does not give any entitlement to leave following the death of a close family member.

    A close family member is defined as one of the following:

    A child or adopted child of the employee
    The husband, wife or partner of the employee
    Parent or grandparent of the employee
    Brother or sister of the employee
    Person to whom the employee has a duty of care (that is, he/she is acting in loco parentis)
    A person in a relationship of domestic dependency with the employee
    Persons of any other class (if any) as may be prescribed

    https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/leave_and_holidays/types_of_leave_from_work.html


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