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Use of PPS for Reference?

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  • 11-11-2019 11:32am
    #1
    Anthony Collins
    Registered Users Posts: 4 ✭


    Hi,

    Just wondering if anybody can advise.

    I have been looking for a place to rent for a while and noticed something I read in the detail of a tenancy agreement - which eventually fell through.

    The tenancy agreement said

    'The tenant agrees to allow the landlord, and any appointed agent, to identify this tenancy using a reference number to consist of the last five digits (including letter) of the tenants PPS number. This reference number will be used in providing a reference for information on the tenancy period.'

    When I asked about this, the agent said that using part of the pps number like this only constituted using my 'personal data' i.e. part of the pps number with my permission - that it was not using the PPS number and pointed me to the welfare website -

    Personal-Public-Service-Number-Code-of-Practice

    Q5. What is the format of the PPS No.?

    A5. A PPS No. is always 7 numbers, and followed by either one or two letters.

    I asked what if I refused to give permission for this and he said that while they couldn't use the reference number / last 5 digits of my pps number without my permission refusing to give permission could result in the landlord refusing my tenancy?

    Is this legal?
    Tagged:


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    #2
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,475 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Not sure what benefit if only using the last digits are?
    The tenant has to supply the full PPS number to the LL for RTB Registration so I’m confused by the specific use of the last 5 digits only?


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    #3
    Anthony Collins
    Registered Users Posts: 4 ✭Anthony Collins


    Hi,

    That was quick.

    I know that the pps is needed for the RTB, but the landlord / agent cannot use the pps outside of this purpose for any other reason, as per the social welfare rules.

    My thinking on this was that the only use of the last 5 digits - not the full pps - means that my tenancy could be uniquely identified or referenced without breaking the social welfare / pps use rules, while ensuring my permission to use what constitutes my personal data so as not to incur the wrath of the Data Protection people.

    What do you think?


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    #4
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,163 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    What the agent is asking for is not allowed. Given the last 5 digits and the check letter it is easy to construct the full number. It is nonsense to say that because they are only looking for 5 digits it is not the PPs no. There are less that 200 combinations of the first 2 letters possible and with the check character known it is easy to find which are the correct pair.


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    #5
    Anthony Collins
    Registered Users Posts: 4 ✭Anthony Collins


    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    What the agent is asking for is not allowed. Given the last 5 digits and the check letter it is easy to construct the full number. It is nonsense to say that because they are only looking for 5 digits it is not the PPs no. There are less that 200 combinations of the first 2 letters possible and with the check character known it is easy to find which are the correct pair.

    Hi,

    Thanks for the answer... not sure what you mean though - its pure idle curiosity at this stage for me, but getting more interesting based on your answer!

    Sorry to be dull but could you explain "Given the last 5 digits and the check letter it is easy to construct the full number" and "with the check character known it is easy to find which are the correct pair" - how that works?

    Example: PPS number is 1234567 D, with last 5 digits are 34567 D = 200 possible combinations - how does knowing the check character D enable you to determine the first 2 are 1 and 2, and not say 8 and 8?

    Even knowing every number / variant of the possible 200 combinations there is no way of associating any one of those with me personally unless they have access to a full list of pps numbers and associated data - which they cannot have because of data protection and could not use even if they had, for the same DP reasons.

    If a landlord gave me a reference which identified the last 5 digits of my PPS - 34567 D, that would only mean something if I associated that with my actual name and PPS number i.e. 1234567 D?

    If Fred or Mary came along with a reference which identified that the last 5 digits of the tenants pps number was - 34567 D, the name and address for the reference would clearly distinguish me from Fred or Mary who share 34567 D with me?

    Wouldn't it?


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    #6
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,048 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    What the agent is asking for is not allowed. Given the last 5 digits and the check letter it is easy to construct the full number. It is nonsense to say that because they are only looking for 5 digits it is not the PPs no. There are less that 200 combinations of the first 2 letters possible and with the check character known it is easy to find which are the correct pair.

    Why would this not be allowed?

    PPS, as stated used for RTB registration. The EA may use part of that number to identify your tenancy in their filing system, the same way date of births are used to identify files where the person may share the same surname and Christian name to another patient/client.


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    #7
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,475 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    What the agent is asking for is not allowed. Given the last 5 digits and the check letter it is easy to construct the full number. It is nonsense to say that because they are only looking for 5 digits it is not the PPs no. There are less that 200 combinations of the first 2 letters possible and with the check character known it is easy to find which are the correct pair.

    The tenant has to give the full PPS number for RTB registration so the plan here is not to sneakily get the full pps, that’s a mandatory requirement and if a tenant doesn’t give it, its grounds for termination or refusal to accept the property.


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    #8
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,163 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    Anthony Collins wrote: »
    Hi,

    Thanks for the answer... not sure what you mean though - its pure idle curiosity at this stage for me, but getting more interesting based on your answer!

    Sorry to be dull but could you explain "Given the last 5 digits and the check letter it is easy to construct the full number" and "with the check character known it is easy to find which are the correct pair" - how that works?

    Example: PPS number is 1234567 D, with last 5 digits are 34567 D = 200 possible combinations - how does knowing the check character D enable you to determine the first 2 are 1 and 2, and not say 8 and 8?

    Even knowing every number / variant of the possible 200 combinations there is no way of associating any one of those with me personally unless they have access to a full list of pps numbers and associated data - which they cannot have because of data protection and could not use even if they had, for the same DP reasons.

    If a landlord gave me a reference which identified the last 5 digits of my PPS - 34567 D, that would only mean something if I associated that with my actual name and PPS number i.e. 1234567 D?

    If Fred or Mary came along with a reference which identified that the last 5 digits of the tenants pps number was - 34567 D, the name and address for the reference would clearly distinguish me from Fred or Mary who share 34567 D with me?

    Wouldn't it?

    There is an algorithm applied to the PPS number which calculates what the check character should be based on its position in the alphabet. The danger with letting anyone know your PPS number is that they wil then have a valid pps number they can use as a VAT number when importing.


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    #9
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,048 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    There is an algorithm applied to the PPS number which calculates what the check character should be based on its position in the alphabet. The danger with letting anyone know your PPS number is that they wil then have a valid pps number they can use as a VAT number when importing.

    Firstly, the owner/agent needs the tenants PPS to register the tenancy, a legal requirement. Secondly, you have to be VAT registered to obtain a benefit from importing and claiming VAT back/exemption. Those that are vat registered, the details you post of are literally on every receipt given to every client.


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    #10
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,475 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    There is an algorithm applied to the PPS number which calculates what the check character should be based on its position in the alphabet. The danger with letting anyone know your PPS number is that they wil then have a valid pps number they can use as a VAT number when importing.

    All irrelevant and nonsense in relation to this thread. The tenant legally has to give the landlord the PPS number of anyone named on the lease. The LL doesn’t have to get only 5 digits then sit in a based menu with a algorithm trying to work out the final 2.

    The LL just asked the tenant for the PPS before handing over the keys and it’s given to them. Simples.


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    #11
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,885 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    I think what the OP is referring to do is in addition to the LL registering the lease

    The LL seems to be saying that the lease will be given a reference number which consists of 5 digits of the tenant's PPSN and that this number will be used to identify the particular lease


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    #12
    Anthony Collins
    Registered Users Posts: 4 ✭Anthony Collins


    Hi All,

    Thanks for all the comments, feedback and opinion... didn't know it would attract that range of engagement on my first posting.

    And yes, Riskymove, that summarizes to basic question perfectly....

    I take on board all of the points made... but I am still brought back to the basic question.

    I know the landlord / agent can legitimately ask for the PPS for the RTB process, accepted. However, given that the PPS was only provided to meet a statutory requirement i.e. RTB registration of a tenancy, this would not appear to give the landlord / agent any authority to do anything else with the PPS number or this 'personal data' belonging to the tenant.

    I would hazard a guess that a landlord / agent could only seek to use this 'personal data' if they request and are given permission by the tenant to use it in this manner, or where the use of the data meets the exercise of the Legitimate Interests criteria contained in the GDPR.

    Given that a PPS is 7 digits and a letter (or two in some old ones) and the landlord is only looking to use 5, it would appear that 5 digits do not a PPS number make!

    However, equally, given that it can be argued that the 5 digits constitute 'personal data' in this circumstance, as per a broad interpretation of person data using the GDPR description, it could be argued that the tenant could seek to contend that the landlord is seeking to exercise use their personal data as in the wording in the tenancy agreement...

    <i>'The tenant agrees to allow the landlord, and any appointed agent, to identify this tenancy using a reference number to consist of the last five digits (including letter) of the tenants PPS number. This reference number will be used in providing a reference for information on the tenancy period.'</i>

    If the tenant, mindful of this clause, chose not to sign, and the landlord refused to complete an offer of tenancy on the basis of this refusal... it would appear that the tenant would have no grounds to pursue the matter.

    Sorry it sounds so convoluted... but... it is... isn't it... yes / no?


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    #13
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,048 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Anthony Collins wrote: »
    Hi All,

    Thanks for all the comments, feedback and opinion... didn't know it would attract that range of engagement on my first posting.

    And yes, Riskymove, that summarizes to basic question perfectly....

    I take on board all of the points made... but I am still brought back to the basic question.

    I know the landlord / agent can legitimately ask for the PPS for the RTB process, accepted. However, given that the PPS was only provided to meet a statutory requirement i.e. RTB registration of a tenancy, this would not appear to give the landlord / agent any authority to do anything else with the PPS number or this 'personal data' belonging to the tenant.

    I would hazard a guess that a landlord / agent could only seek to use this 'personal data' if they request and are given permission by the tenant to use it in this manner, or where the use of the data meets the exercise of the Legitimate Interests criteria contained in the GDPR.

    Given that a PPS is 7 digits and a letter (or two in some old ones) and the landlord is only looking to use 5, it would appear that 5 digits do not a PPS number make!

    However, equally, given that it can be argued that the 5 digits constitute 'personal data' in this circumstance, as per a broad interpretation of person data using the GDPR description, it could be argued that the tenant could seek to contend that the landlord is seeking to exercise use their personal data as in the wording in the tenancy agreement...

    <i>'The tenant agrees to allow the landlord, and any appointed agent, to identify this tenancy using a reference number to consist of the last five digits (including letter) of the tenants PPS number. This reference number will be used in providing a reference for information on the tenancy period.'</i>

    If the tenant, mindful of this clause, chose not to sign, and the landlord refused to complete an offer of tenancy on the basis of this refusal... it would appear that the tenant would have no grounds to pursue the matter.

    Sorry it sounds so convoluted... but... it is... isn't it... yes / no?

    Given that they are requesting permission to use your PPS number to identify you in their records, is that not a legitimate use? Your PPS is unique to you, your name and address is not, therefore using your PPS is probably the most fail-safe way for them to insure any correspondence that may have the potential for data breach, goes only to you/is discussed with you.

    Personally I don’t see what the issue here is, they have your PPS number already and they only want to use it internally to identity/reference your file, they are not saying they will share it with anyone else. But if you aren’t happy with their GDPR compliance, discuss with the data commissioner and rent somewhere else off someone you have more confidence in. You are under no obligation to accept their request.


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    #14
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,163 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    Dav010 wrote: »
    Firstly, the owner/agent needs the tenants PPS to register the tenancy, a legal requirement. Secondly, you have to be VAT registered to obtain a benefit from importing and claiming VAT back/exemption. Those that are vat registered, the details you post of are literally on every receipt given to every client.

    Some goods are imported using someone else's VAT number and the person who is the genuinely registered owner of that VAT no can end up getting a bill from the Revenue. A PPS no should not be given to anyone who is not entitled to it and should not be used for anything other that its minimum legal purposes. If it or any part of it is being used as a reference no, then it might become known to more people that the landlord.


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    #15
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,048 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    Some goods are imported using someone else's VAT number and the person who is the genuinely registered owner of that VAT no can end up getting a bill from the Revenue. A PPS no should not be given to anyone who is not entitled to it and should not be used for anything other that its minimum legal purposes. If it or any part of it is being used as a reference no, then it might become known to more people that the landlord.

    This is absolutely incorrect. You cannot use someone else’s PPS number to import goods duty free anymore than you can use your own PPS number to do it. VAT numbers are on the receipts of VAT registered businesses, they are usually on company websites and I’m pretty sure are available online, you can’t just take those numbers and order stuff yourself.

    Again, a LL/agent is entitled to it, in fact it is a statutory requirement that they have it to register a tenancy, and, as a form of referencing/identifying the op, it is probably the most accurate way of doing so. If you have suspicions that the EA is not GDPR compliant, don’t sign the lease and report to Data Commissioner.


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    #16
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    I don't think there's much ambiguity over the use of PPS numbers:
    The Personal Public Service Number (PPS Number) is designed for use in transactions between the individual and public bodies. The PPS Number may only be used by persons authorised to do so under Social Welfare legislation ( PPS Number Legislation).

    Data may only be shared using the PPS Number as a common identifier where the sharing is authorised by law e.g. Data Protection or Social Welfare law.

    I can't imaging the "we're only using most of the PPS number" would wash with the DP Commissioner either.


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    #17
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,048 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Graham wrote: »
    I don't think there's much ambiguity over the use of PPS numbers:



    I can't imaging the "we're only using most of the PPS number" would wash with the DP Commissioner either.

    I may have missed it, but did the Landlord/Agent say they were sharing part of the PPS number? I thought it was just for internal reference/identifying the tenancy.


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    #18
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    I see no exceptions that allow for identifying a tenancy. I see no exceptions allowing for use of most of the PPS number.


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    #19
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,048 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Graham wrote: »
    I see no exceptions that allow for identifying a tenancy. I see no exceptions allowing for use of most of the PPS number.

    The PPS is not being shared with anyone accept the RTB, a public body for the purposes of registering the tenancy. So what exclusions are you not seeing? The persons PPS may be used by the Data Controller to identify who that info belongs to and what it relates to.


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    #20
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,163 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    Dav010 wrote: »
    The PPS is not being shared with anyone accept the RTB, a public body for the purposes of registering the tenancy. So what exclusions are you not seeing? The persons PPS may be used by the Data Controller to identify who that info belongs to and what it relates to.

    The PPS is given to the landlord for the purpose of registration and should be r used for nothing else. landlords shoud not retain the mobile numbers or email addresses of departed tenants either.


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    #21
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Dav010 wrote: »
    The PPS is not being shared with anyone accept the RTB, a public body for the purposes of registering the tenancy. So what exclusions are you not seeing? The persons PPS may be used by the Data Controller to identify who that info belongs to and what it relates to.

    The subject of the thread is "Use of PPS for Reference".
    The legislation governing the allocation and use of the PPS Number is contained in the Social Welfare (Consolidation) Act , as amended by the Social Welfare Acts 1998, 1999, 2000, 2002 and 2003 2005 and the Social Welfare and Pensions Act 2007. Only Specified Bodies named in the above Social Welfare Acts can use the PPS Number.
    Source: http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/Personal-Public-Service-Number--Use-of-the-PPS-Number.aspx

    While you may be able to argue it is necessary for the EA to temporarily hold the PPS number for the sole purpose of registering the tenancy, I see nothing that would allow for any other use.


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    #22
    wench
    Registered Users Posts: 1,630 ✭✭✭wench


    Dav010 wrote: »
    The persons PPS may be used by the Data Controller to identify who that info belongs to and what it relates to.
    No, they can't.


    Only bodies specified in legislation can use the PPSN.
    They are authorised by DEASP, who maintain a public register of them here
    http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/PPSN-Register-of-Users---Other-Users.aspx


    As you can see, "Estate Agents who think it's convenient" isn't on the list.


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    #23
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,048 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    I guess it is then up to the EA to justify its use to the Data Commissioner, the op should contact them for clarification. In the meantime, the op should refuse to sign the lease if it is a condition he/she is not happy with.


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    #24
    0lddog
    Registered Users Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭0lddog


    What if the prospective tenant does not have a pps number ? ( perhaps resident and citizen of another country )


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    #25
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Dav010 wrote: »
    I guess it is then up to the EA to justify its use to the Data Commissioner

    Out of curiosity, what justification do you think the EA might be able to rely upon for using a PPS number other than for registering a tenancy?


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    #26
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,048 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Graham wrote: »
    Out of curiosity, what justification do you think the EA might be able to rely upon for using a PPS number other than for registering a tenancy?

    I honestly don’t know apart from a REIT that might have hundreds or even thousands of tenants many of whom may have similar names in complexes they fully own. A PPS number or part there of may be the most accurate way to identify a tenant/tenancy particularly when discussing sensitive details with the tenant. I doubt a “local” EA with a few rentals on the books would need nor want this info, but one of the cookoo landlords might.


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    #27
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Dav010 wrote: »
    I honestly don’t know apart from a REIT that might have hundreds or even thousands of tenants many of whom may have similar names in complexes they fully own.

    I see nothing in the legislation that would allow such use by landlords or EAs of any size.


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    #28
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,048 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Graham wrote: »
    I see nothing in the legislation that would allow such use by landlords or EAs of any size.

    That then is for the DC to decide, the op should not take the rental property until they are satisfied.


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    #29
    CIARAN_BOYLE
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,599 Mod ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    0lddog wrote: »
    What if the prospective tenant does not have a pps number ? ( perhaps resident and citizen of another country )

    Then they should be told to get a pps number.

    A pps number is required to register tenancy with prtb and without this the landlord cannot claim mortgage interest relief.


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    #30
    0lddog
    Registered Users Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭0lddog


    CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »
    Then they should be told to get a pps number.

    A pps number is required to register tenancy with prtb and without this the landlord cannot claim mortgage interest relief.


    If, for example, a company ( maybe or may not be Irish registered ) wants to rent an apartment what would the position be ?


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    #31
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,885 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    0lddog wrote: »
    If, for example, a company ( maybe or may not be Irish registered ) wants to rent an apartment what would the position be ?

    PPSNs relate to individuals not companies

    the PRTB cover private residential agreements so I doubt they would cover situations where a company rents a dwelling for use by their staff etc. That's probably a commercial lease


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