Time to call out the horse racing industry

Snails pace · 28-03-2020 11:36am

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »

A horse doesn't want you or your stupid saddle on their back!

I don't care how many people try to tell me otherwise, no animal wants to be used by you as a mode of transport or a fun play thing to be exploited.

They are powerful but gentle animals... so they can and do endure a lot of punishment.

Anyone who says they love horses, but then puts a saddle on them and jumps up on their back... you are a hypocrite and phoney!

Well if things get any worse we'll be going back to the horse drawn carts. If I have a choice between walking or a horse carrying me, the horse is going to carry me.

Hoboo · 28-03-2020 11:40am

Slim Charles wrote: »

Spot on. You're a racist though in many eyes for saying that a virus that originated in China is Chinas fault.

Ah will you stop. Racist? Replace China with Australia, is it still racist?

Only race is human, ditch the cards.

AlphabetCards · 28-03-2020 11:44am

Strumms wrote: »

As an industry they employ a lot of people and it’s worth over a year a lot to the Irish economy. According to an article in the examiner back in 2017 the horse racing industry is worth over 1.8 billion euro to the Irish economy...

https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/racing-industry-worth-over-18bn-to-economy-report-458568.html

They probably said the same about slavery back in the day. The money will be spent, just elsewhere.

Hulk Hands · 28-03-2020 11:57am

6 wrote: »

Can never understand why betting companies, and punters aren't heavily taxed. It's a luxury. It used to cost 10% on a pound to bet. It should be that again or even more. Say that as someone who likes a bet on the soccer every so often.

They had a PR disaster during this crisis anyway, that's for sure.

Agree with poster above, Horse Racing would collapse without gambling.

Because a company like Bet365 would do what they've done in countless places, operate online here without a license without customers having to pay the tax and the companies that did pass on 10% wouldn't survive.

As it is, a hefty tax is paid on every bet you place. It's just swallowed by the bookies and brings in a mini fortune in tax revenue each year.

Cheltenham went ahead strictly on British Government advice, who were on their stupid herd immunity strategy at the time. Irish racing went ahead for 10 days behind closed on Irish government advice as they know how important to the survival of the industry (mainly breeding where Ireland's the world leader) was/is to the economy. The order of Malta, a medical charity, offered it's ambulances to the government and the government said to hold off until needed, which permitted them to be used on racetracks and racing to go ahead. Not sure how it's been a PR disaster for bookmakers, who this has nothing to do with, or racing who were doing what they were told.

Joe_ Public · 28-03-2020 12:17pm

Hulk Hands wrote: »

Because a company like Bet365 would do what they've done in countless places, operate online here without a license without customers having to pay the tax and the companies that did pass on 10% wouldn't survive.

As it is, a hefty tax is paid on every bet you place. It's just swallowed by the bookies and brings in a mini fortune in tax revenue each year.

Cheltenham went ahead strictly on British Government advice, who were on their stupid herd immunity strategy at the time. Irish racing went ahead for 10 days behind closed on Irish government advice as they know how important to the survival of the industry (mainly breeding where Ireland's the world leader) was/is to the economy. The order of Malta, a medical charity, offered it's ambulances to the government and the government said to hold off until needed, which permitted them to be used on racetracks and racing to go ahead. Not sure how it's been a PR disaster for bookmakers, who this has nothing to do with, or racing who were doing what they were told.

I can recall a time in the 80s when betting tax was 20%. God knows how it survived on that.

I think point is its been a PR setback for racing industry. I think thats a valid enough statement to be fair. But lot of people dont normally need much excuse to vent against the industry so you get some hysterical criticism here, its just par for the course.

The Tetrarch · 28-03-2020 12:29pm

Soccer Game Attended by 40,000 Fans Likely Made This Italian City a Coronavirus Epicenter
It was the biggest soccer game in Atalanta’s history and a third of Bergamo’s population made the short trip to Milan’s famed San Siro Stadium.
Nearly 2,500 fans of visiting Spanish club Valencia also traveled to that Champions League match.
More than a month later, experts are pointing to the Feb. 19 game as one of the biggest reasons why Bergamo has become one of the epicenters of the coronavirus pandemic — a “biological bomb” was the way one respiratory specialist put it — and why 35% of Valencia’s team became infected.

But let us blame toffs, not the Irish people who were on ski holidays in the area.
No facts. Make up a story.

The Tetrarch · 28-03-2020 12:58pm

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »

A horse doesn't want you or your stupid saddle on their back!
I don't care how many people try to tell me otherwise, no animal wants to be used by you as a mode of transport or a fun play thing to be exploited.
They are powerful but gentle animals... so they can and do endure a lot of punishment.
Anyone who says they love horses, but then puts a saddle on them and jumps up on their back... you are a hypocrite and phoney!

Thanks for the speech from the moral high ground.
I come from a time when there were few cars, less than ten in the large country town where I spent my early years.
Back then there were hundreds of horses around, used to pull carts, and as transport for people in traps and other small carriages.
Even in Dublin milk, bread, and vegetable were delivered to houses by horse drawn wagons.
No outrage from you about how cars eliminated working horses and choke our streets.

What do you want to do with the 250,000 Thoroughbred breeding mares and the hundreds of thousands of racehorses in the world?
Do you want them eliminated? If you do, please say so.

The thoroughbred is bred for horse racing, descended from the Akhal-Teke that roamed Turkmenistan, bred with other horse breeds, and imported to Yorkshire, England.
There the imports were bred with the native British and Irish breeds, Hobbys and Galloways to produce racehorses, then owned by the aristocracy.

You make it sound like Thoroughbred horses are raced every day of their lives.
A racehorse might race ten times in its life.
Of course it has to be educated and trained gradually before that.

You have great insight into the mind of horses.
You believe you know what horses are thinking.

In your world of true people who are not "phoneys" and "hypoocrites" horses are to be left alone to enjoy life.
Will you stable them and feed them?

Hulk Hands · 28-03-2020 1:13pm

Joe_ Public wrote: »

I can recall a time in the 80s when betting tax was 20%. God knows how it survived on that.

People had no choice back then and the only ones that gambled were degenerates. If we charge a tax now (further to the hefty one swallowed by bookies), yet someone can go online and not pay tax , they'll obviously move online to somewhere unregulated.

Back then anyway turnover was miniscule because it was seen as a mugs game, which it was with the tax and margins. With lower tax now it gives people less impression of being ripped off. A lad can spend 100 quid a month now picking selections at random and his expected return is about 95. Then there's those who think with a little study of sports they can beat the game and there's those that actually understand it properly that can with ease. All leads to huge tax returns for Government that wouldn't be achievable if you jacked it up for customers again

c montgomery · 28-03-2020 1:16pm

Joe_ Public wrote: »

"ethnic minorities flaunting animal cruelty and road laws..."

And this has what exactly to do with the horse racing industry?

That race horses on public roads

CrankyHaus · 28-03-2020 1:21pm

Surprised nobody's mentioned the significant amount of taxpayers money that supports horseracing. €61 Million in 2008, which includes the prizemoney for races.
Worth asking if the taxpayer is getting their money's worth from this investment, since the industry they so generously support was perfectly happy to superspread Coronavirus here just to turn a quick buck. Not to mention the enormous and growing problem of gambling addiction.

Joe_ Public · 28-03-2020 1:22pm

Hulk Hands wrote: »

People had no choice back then and the only ones that gambled were degenerates. If we charge a tax now (further to the hefty one swallowed by bookies), yet someone can go online and not pay tax , they'll obviously move online to somewhere unregulated.

Back then anyway turnover was miniscule because it was seen as a mugs game, which it was with the tax and margins. With lower tax now it gives people less impression of being ripped off. A lad can spend 100 quid a month now picking selections at random and his expected return is about 95. Then there's those who think with a little study of sports they can beat the game and there's those that actually understand it properly that can with ease. All leads to huge tax returns for Government that wouldn't be achievable if you jacked it up for customers again

I was a bit of a degenerate in the 80s, thats true. Some fond memories.

suicide_circus · 28-03-2020 1:22pm

lol all the sick gamblers scrambling to defend the sport of kings

the beer revolu · 28-03-2020 1:30pm

The Tetrarch wrote: »

Soccer Game Attended by 40,000 Fans Likely Made This Italian City a Coronavirus Epicenter
It was the biggest soccer game in Atalanta’s history and a third of Bergamo’s population made the short trip to Milan’s famed San Siro Stadium.
Nearly 2,500 fans of visiting Spanish club Valencia also traveled to that Champions League match.
More than a month later, experts are pointing to the Feb. 19 game as one of the biggest reasons why Bergamo has become one of the epicenters of the coronavirus pandemic — a “biological bomb” was the way one respiratory specialist put it — and why 35% of Valencia’s team became infected.

But let us blame toffs, not the Irish people who were on ski holidays in the area.
No facts. Make up a story.

Thinly veiled "I was at Cheltenham 2020" 'post.

28-03-2020 1:32pm

CrankyHaus wrote: »

Surprised nobody's mentioned the significant amount of taxpayers money that supports horseracing. €61 Million in 2008, which includes the prizemoney for races.
Worth asking if the taxpayer is getting their money's worth from this investment, since the industry they so generously support was perfectly happy to superspread Coronavirus here just to turn a quick buck. Not to mention the enormous and growing problem of gambling addiction.

That money comes from a levy on betting, not the general taxpayer.

So, to answer your question, taxpayers are benefitting greatly from horse and greyhound racing.

There’s no evidence that any Irish Cheltenham racegoers brought the virus back with them.

The Tetrarch · 28-03-2020 1:51pm

the beer revolu wrote: »

Thinly veiled "I was at Cheltenham 2020" 'post.

And again, a makey uppy post. "Facts" not supported by facts.
If you frequent the horse racing forum you would know that I am a fan of flat racing (the type without jumps).
The last jumps meeting I was at was St Stephens day, Leopardstown, in I think 1976.

The Tetrarch · 28-03-2020 1:58pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

lol all the sick gamblers scrambling to defend the sport of kings

To gamble is a choice allowed in a democracy.
People "invest" in houses and shares with not a idea how to assess risk or to research value.
But that is ok, because it is investing, and in six figure sums.

I bet occasionally, and am happy to report I ended 2019 transferring money from my Betfair account to my bank account.
You win, you lose. You learn and improve.
You and others appear to equate betting with unthinking, compulsive action. Sorry to disappoint.

Hulk Hands · 28-03-2020 2:46pm

CrankyHaus wrote: »

Surprised nobody's mentioned the significant amount of taxpayers money that supports horseracing. €61 Million in 2008, which includes the prizemoney for races.
Worth asking if the taxpayer is getting their money's worth from this investment, since the industry they so generously support was perfectly happy to superspread Coronavirus here just to turn a quick buck. Not to mention the enormous and growing problem of gambling addiction.

The taxpayer is getting incredible value from the horse racing industry. Ireland's the world leader in breeding with throughbreds fetching vast sums. Prize money supports, much of it taken from the betting levy, is designed to keep the best horses in the country, thus keeping the production line and tax receipts flowing.

Bobeagleburger · 28-03-2020 2:53pm

Their funding should be slashed. Give it to proper sports where kids can actually get fit and improve their health.

Let the gambling industry fund them.

Hulk Hands · 28-03-2020 3:03pm

6 wrote: »

Their funding should be slashed. Give it to proper sports where kids can actually get fit and improve their health.

Let the gambling industry fund them.

Are you even reading the posts? The gambling industry does fund them. It comes from the betting levy

28-03-2020 3:04pm

Hulk Hands wrote: »

Are you even reading the posts? The gambling industry does fund them. It comes from the betting levy

Ah, here. Don’t be getting in the way of a good rant!

Huntergonzo · 28-03-2020 3:11pm

I think Cheltenham should probably have been cancelled but look, the UK still weren't taking the whole thing seriously so it's not like they ploughed on in the middle of a lockdown.

Regrettable decision to go ahead, but what's done is done.

As for horse racing, I'm in favour of it and I hope it continues to thrive.

The animal cruelty brigade tends to go very overboard about these sort of things and they're only getting worse with all the snowflakes we have around these days to join their cause.

I grew up around animals on a dairy farm and while cattle were our bread and butter we also kept a few horses as pets basically and still know plenty of people in the horse industry.

We loved our animals and never miss treated them and while there are always going to be a few bad eggs, the vast majority of horse owners/trainers/breeders I know treat their animals very well, they love their horses, it's their passion.

That's just in my first hand experience though, but I'm sure the snowflakes who've probably never even been on a farm nor a stud know better ;-)

Strumms · 28-03-2020 4:20pm

The Tetrarch wrote: »

To gamble is a choice allowed in a democracy.
People "invest" in houses and shares with not a idea how to assess risk or to research value.
But that is ok, because it is investing, and in six figure sums.

I bet occasionally, and am happy to report I ended 2019 transferring money from my Betfair account to my bank account.
You win, you lose. You learn and improve.
You and others appear to equate betting with unthinking, compulsive action. Sorry to disappoint.

People don’t invest in houses in the main though. They buy a house because they need somewhere to live. Without housing, shelter... you’ll die.

If you choose not to gamble it’s a choice correct. Gambling as pointed out is a multi million / billion industry. Gambling by definition is ‘a game of chance’... that is the literal definition. A game. Other industries have stopped in light of the global health crisis. Horse racing doesn’t want to because the big wigs, movers and shakers have had the snouts in the trough and they know nothing else. It doesn’t matter the crisis, they are not willing to see their bank accounts stagnant, global health crisis or otherwise. They are motivated by money, only. How and what extents they will go to get it ? We are seeing it now.

Bobeagleburger · 28-03-2020 4:21pm

Hulk Hands wrote: »

Are you even reading the posts? The gambling industry does fund them. It comes from the betting levy

How much do you they get in government funding? That's what should be slashed.

28-03-2020 4:22pm

6 wrote: »

How much do you they get in government funding? That's what should be slashed.

Nothing. It all comes from a levy on betting.

Bobeagleburger · 28-03-2020 4:25pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Nothing. It all comes from a levy on betting.

And who distributes the money?

The Tetrarch · 28-03-2020 5:57pm

Strumms wrote: »

People don’t invest in houses in the main though. They buy a house because they need somewhere to live. Without housing, shelter... you’ll die.

If you choose not to gamble it’s a choice correct. Gambling as pointed out is a multi million / billion industry. Gambling by definition is ‘a game of chance’... that is the literal definition. A game. Other industries have stopped in light of the global health crisis. Horse racing doesn’t want to because the big wigs, movers and shakers have had the snouts in the trough and they know nothing else. It doesn’t matter the crisis, they are not willing to see their bank accounts stagnant, global health crisis or otherwise. They are motivated by money, only. How and what extents they will go to get it ? We are seeing it now.

People do invest in houses. They buy them.
Why do they buy them? To invest in an asset for security in their old age when they will not be able to rent.

You could have also said: "They rent a house because they need somewhere to live. Without housing, shelter... you’ll die."

Every negative comment you make about the horse racing industry you could also make about every other business.
Businesses are run with the intention of making a profit.
If you want to discuss the subject you should drop the childish expressions "big wigs", "movers and shakers", "snouts in the trough", "motivated by money, only".

If people want to bet on any event it is their choice.
You can improve your chances of success if you work hard at it.
Problem gamblers are a problem to themselves and the other betters.
From every case I have read they do no analysis.
Would you expect success in the stock market without analysis of companies, or expect success launching a new product without market research?
People love to hear about problem gamblers. They hate to hear about anyone winning. That is human nature. Jealousy.
The problem is not gambling, it is losing.

I choose to gamble (although I call it betting). It is the correct choice for me.

Horse racing is not responsible for the coronavirus pandemic.

Strumms · 28-03-2020 6:30pm

The Tetrarch wrote: »

Every negative comment you make about the horse racing industry you could also make about every other business.
Businesses are run with the intention of making a profit.

What planet are you inhabiting exactly?

Pretty much all businesses operate with profitability in mind, the health of the staff and indeed customers closed their doors... I’ll give you an example of businesses in my immediate area....

Restaurant
Gym
Swimming pool
Electronics store
Carpet store
Pub
Dentist,

I could go on....

I give you HRI’s Brian Kavanagh..

“Put it this way, they are emergency measures that are sustainable in the short-term but become more difficult the longer it goes on,” he said on Friday.
“We’ve worked with Government institutions to try and keep the show on the road, keep people earning in terms of jockeys earning riding fees, trainers with percentages of prizemoney, that the wheels are still turning.
Painful
“But if this goes on long-term it will be very painful for the industry. Like anything if you sacrifice a significant element of your customer base you can only do that short term,” Kavanagh added.

A clear broadside that these measures might be acceptable in the short term but they are pushing for leniency in regards to the measures. Suck it up sweetheart, it’s a pain in the neck but there is more than you and your fücking bank account to consider.

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! · 28-03-2020 7:32pm

The Tetrarch wrote: »

Thanks for the speech from the moral high ground.
I come from a time when there were few cars, less than ten in the large country town where I spent my early years.
Back then there were hundreds of horses around, used to pull carts, and as transport for people in traps and other small carriages.
Even in Dublin milk, bread, and vegetable were delivered to houses by horse drawn wagons.

Yes, all of this was wrong... It was wrong to enslave this beautiful animal for our benefit. Thankfully we don't do most of this anymore.

No outrage from you about how cars eliminated working horses and choke our streets.

Keeping horses as slaves = bad.
Pollution from cars = bad.

They're both bad... but going back to using horses as slaves, does not resolve the problem. We need to find a solution to car and truck pollution. (which we will very soon I'm sure)

What do you want to do with the 250,000 Thoroughbred breeding mares and the hundreds of thousands of racehorses in the world?
Do you want them eliminated? If you do, please say so.

Oh, so you create this huge industry of enslaved animals... then wash your hands, and say okay you clean up our mess if you don't like it! Very classy! :rolleyes:

There is no doubt it would be a huge challenge, but people who truly love animals (not the phoneys putting saddles on their back), would find a solution eventually.

The thoroughbred is bred for horse racing, descended from the Akhal-Teke that roamed Turkmenistan, bred with other horse breeds, and imported to Yorkshire, England.
There the imports were bred with the native British and Irish breeds, Hobbys and Galloways to produce racehorses, then owned by the aristocracy.

They never stopped being an animal, with feelings and emotions etc...

You think because you bred them for a specific task, that this means they are your creation? They are not your creation... you merely slightly influenced their very recent evolution. They belong to the world... the natural world.

You make it sound like Thoroughbred horses are raced every day of their lives.
A racehorse might race ten times in its life.
Of course it has to be educated and trained gradually before that.

I never said anything about thoroughbreds in my OP. You must be addressing this to someone else.

But yes, keeping horses for your own racing and gambling entertainment, is slavery... just because they're well kept and well treated, doesn't make them any less of a slave!

You have great insight into the mind of horses.
You believe you know what horses are thinking.

Yes, because of course you can prove conclusively that horses love being saddled up and being your slave and your entertainment.

I bet you think you know the mind of a horse too... you know what they want, but it's actually mostly based on what YOU want. Selfish people can convince themselves of almost anything!

In your world of true people who are not "phoneys" and "hypoocrites" horses are to be left alone to enjoy life.
Will you stable them and feed them?

Why not?

We leave other animals alone, to enjoy their life... why would we apply a different standard to a horse?

Have you ever seen horses running in the wild? It's a beautiful thing... sadly really very rare these days. But who knows, perhaps it might be more commonplace in the future!

The Tetrarch · 28-03-2020 7:59pm

Horses are slaves!
Do you want horses to be freed with a Slavery Abolition Act?

Where would horses go? They are not a wild breed.
There are no unfenced pastures where they could run wild.
They are housed in stables in the colder months of the year, and let out wearing rugs to keep them warm during the day.
Only in the warm months of summer are they out 24 hours a day.
You abolition of slavery / free the horses idea would probably result in death for the majority of race horses from exposure.
Thoroughbreds (race horses) were never a free breed roaming about.
They are a hybrid breed, a mix of different horse breeds, designed by humans.
They are unlike animals in the wild e.g. antelopes; deer, that breed true to type, and suited to the environment where they are found..

You say "I never said anything about thoroughbreds in my OP"
If you talk about racehorses you are talking about thoroughbreds, and a small number of AQPS (Autre Que Pur-Sang"), translated as "Other than Thoroughbred (pure blood)".
You mentioned horse racing in your opening post, and almost 100% of horses racing are thoroughbreds, so I have to guess that you know almost nothing about horses and horse racing when you correct me when I mention thoroughbreds.

It is difficult to discuss horse racing with a person who knows almost nothing about the subject.
First they have to be educated, then their nonsensical ideas have to be refuted.

statesaver · 28-03-2020 8:00pm

This seems to be more of the ' i don't like it, so lets cancel it, dox it, ban it '

Yawn

Time to call out the horse racing industry

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