packed buses...

fly_agaric · 06-02-2018 10:56pm #1

Noticed this piece on the Journal today:

Packed buses are driving past angry morning commuters - but what can Dublin Bus do?

"DUBLIN BUS HAS said it will 'continuously review' demand for services amid the capital's ongoing traffic issues and an increased number of commuters travelling into the city.

The start of the new year and the implementation of the new Luas Cross City has seen frequent jams in some areas and changes have already been introduced to help alleviate problems.

But other issues have been identified by commuters, such as trams and buses being full to capacity and unable to stop for waiting passengers."

http://www.thejournal.ie/dublin-bus-traffic-commuters-3829070-Feb2018/

It is something I'd noticed on the various "39/37" etc routes, getting worse over the past year or so and affecting in to city/out of city directions during the "rush 3 - 4 hours" in morning and evening.

On way out of the city centre, by 1st stop on the quays, buses are full to bursting between about 4 pm and up to 7 pm. Considered moaning about it somewhere (Dublin Bus, TII, NTA, politicians??) but whats the point? Probably even more of a waste of time than sending words out into the void on here.

Who am I fooling, cattle don't get to complain, pay up like a good mug + squeeze on...plenty of room down the back! Anyway have others had such issues with other bus routes or is the article nonsense?

eet fuk · 06-02-2018 11:00pm

On yer bike

thomasj · 06-02-2018 11:07pm

fly_agaric wrote:

It is something I'd noticed on the various "39/37" etc routes, getting worse over the past year or so and affecting in to city/out of city directions during the "rush 3 - 4 hours" in morning and evening.

Yeah the usual this evening after 7pm 37 flying past on the quays full same with the 39a. The next bus that came just about enough space for us.

Another thing that has cropped up is DBs definition of the morning peak. Even if you look at dublins recent announcements for extra morning peak hour buses it was for between 7am - 8am?

Certainly on my route 39a the route is very busy right up to after 9am.

fly_agaric · 06-02-2018 11:14pm

thomasj wrote: »

Yeah the usual this evening after 7pm 37 flying past on the quays full same with the 39a. The next bus that came just about enough space for us...

yes, was quite bad this evening, which prompted the post also. Overloads (or just very heavy loads) of passengers on these routes do seem (to me) to be getting more frequent, and also occurring during a longer time window than they used to in the past.

On yer bike

Maybe next new years' resolution.
Lord make me chaste but not just yet.

Atlantic Dawn · 06-02-2018 11:17pm

A good step might be to limit use of free travel by elderly to off peak times like it was originally.

devnull · 06-02-2018 11:19pm

There was an increase of fleet size in Dublin Bus at the end of 2017 by approx 30 buses to be used for increasing the reliability of existing services to reduce the likelihood of dropped laps by increasing running time on some services, as well as adding extra timetabled departures on a number of routes.

So far this year we've seen enhancements on 33b, 33d, 44, 44b, 65 and 65b in the first half of January, whilst in the last week or two we've seen the same on route 9, 15, 25a, 25b, 26, 46a, 66 and 67 and substantial increases of service levels on the 140 which were implemented this weekend.

There is said to be more changes to be made in the coming weeks for a number of other routes, including the extension of route 40D to Hollystown, a new route from Finglas to Broombridge and some increases on cross city routes but bills have to be agreed and approved with unions before these can happen and appropriate notice given.

In addition, by the end of the year the total number of vehicles used on the routes operated by Dublin Bus at present will increase from approx 1000 to over 1100 which should allow for substantial increases in capacity.

Also it's likely that a number of the current issues are not helped by the issues with the new LUAS line.

suicide_circus · 06-02-2018 11:22pm

Seen it happen pretty frequently on the 747. Tourists yelling as the bus sails past.

Mongfinder General · 06-02-2018 11:31pm

devnull wrote: »

There was an increase of fleet size in Dublin Bus at the end of 2017 by approx 30 buses to be used for increasing the reliability of existing services to reduce the likelihood of dropped laps by increasing running time on some services, as well as adding extra timetabled departures on a number of routes.

So far this year we've seen enhancements on 33b, 33d, 44, 44b, 65 and 65b in the first half of January, whilst in the last week or two we've seen the same on route 9, 15, 25a, 25b, 26, 46a, 66 and 67 and substantial increases of service levels on the 140 which were implemented this weekend.

There is said to be more changes to be made in the coming weeks for a number of other routes, including the extension of route 40D to Hollystown, a new route from Finglas to Broombridge and some increases on cross city routes but bills have to be agreed and approved with unions before these can happen and appropriate notice given.

In addition, by the end of the year the total number of vehicles used on the routes operated by Dublin Bus at present will increase from approx 1000 to over 1100 which should allow for substantial increases in capacity.

The Finglas to Broombridge service is utter nonsense. It takes commuters on a detour through tolka valley to connect with a tram in broombridge. It would be quicker just going to town via the old finglas Road

devnull · 06-02-2018 11:33pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

Seen it happen pretty frequently on the 747. Tourists yelling as the bus sails past.

Should take that one up with Dublin Bus since it's a commercial route, whilst there are other options that serve the airport such as the 16/41/700/702/703/757 that all overlap to some degree with the 747.

Mongfinder General wrote: »

The Finglas to Broombridge service is utter nonsense. It takes commuters on a detour through tolka valley to connect with a tram in broombridge. It would be quicker just going to town via the old finglas Road

Has the route that the bus is going to take been officially confirmed yet? I've seen a lot of speculation but I've not seen anything official from either the NTA or Dublin Bus in relation to this.

bebeman · 07-02-2018 12:26am

"Asked whether Dublin Bus has the freedom to add more buses to a route if demand is there, the NTA said a process is in place where such an application can be made.

“Basically, the situation is that they’re (Dublin Bus) under contract with the NTA, they’re the providers, they’re contracted to us. If they want to vary the conditions of the contract, they put a formal process to us and we would consider it and make a detention as to whether it goes ahead or not,” O’Gara explains."

What have i posted here before?
DB cant put extra buses on without the permission of the NTA, and here it proof from the horses mouth.

devnull · 07-02-2018 12:28am

I don't think anyone disputed that Dublin Bus cannot change the timetable themselves without permission of the NTA.

hardanro · 07-02-2018 12:41am

No, the article is not non-sense.
On finglas road, between 7:30 and 9 no buses are stopping (nevermind travelling like a cattle - you're lucky if you actually can get on a bus). And this is with all the bragging about new bragged increase service levels on 140, which didn't bring any improvement this week.
And, if the problem wasn't bad enough, 1 in 3 buses don't even turn up.

bebeman · 07-02-2018 12:52am

devnull wrote: »

I don't think anyone disputed that Dublin Bus cannot change the timetable themselves without permission of the NTA.

No mention of timetable anywhere.

devnull · 07-02-2018 1:01am

hardanro wrote: »

No, the article is not non-sense.
On finglas road, between 7:30 and 9 no buses are stopping (nevermind travelling like a cattle - you're lucky if you actually can get on a bus). And this is with all the bragging about new bragged increase service levels on 140, which didn't bring any improvement this week.
And, if the problem wasn't bad enough, 1 in 3 buses don't even turn up.

Certainly there are issues in some routes at certain times of the day - but I find it hard to believe the claim that the 40/40D/140 are not able to stop for an entire 90 minute period on Finglas Road - I have used those routes in morning peak in the last few weeks and whilst there are some heavily loaded buses, there are also a good number with spare capacity too when taking all three routes into consideration.

If buses are not running in early morning peak, presumably on their first journey after leaving Harristown, then this would indicate an operational issue on the side of Dublin Bus since these buses would start their day in the garage and then go direct to the 40/140/40D terminus and then operate out.

hardanro · 07-02-2018 1:28am

A tweet from this morning:

https://twitter.com/dublinbusnews/status/960795528303964160

I was also at the bus stop (Ardmore Hotel) around 8 am. There was already 15 people waiting and more coming. After the first 2 buses didn't stop (40D & 140) I realized that the situation will only get worse so I walk up the road.
I managed to get on a bus at 8:30 in Finglas village. The bus didn't stop to pick up other passengers until St Vincent School.

AlekSmart · 07-02-2018 7:28am

bebeman wrote: »

"Asked whether Dublin Bus has the freedom to add more buses to a route if demand is there, the NTA said a process is in place where such an application can be made.

“Basically, the situation is that they’re (Dublin Bus) under contract with the NTA, they’re the providers, they’re contracted to us. If they want to vary the conditions of the contract, they put a formal process to us and we would consider it and make a detention as to whether it goes ahead or not,” O’Gara explains."

What have i posted here before?
DB cant put extra buses on without the permission of the NTA, and here it proof from the horses mouth.

It's of interest that the NTA put's it's PR Guru out to bat when dealing with this issue.

An indication perhaps,of how it percieves the situation internally ?

Get over the Term-Time hump and all will subside,effective PR management can make black appear white in due course.

A quick witted reporter,might have asked Mr O'Gara to expand a bit on the meaning of the term "formal process",particularly in terms of time frame and available resources.

Guess we'll have to wait for a bit more time yet ?

suicide_circus · 07-02-2018 10:42am

devnull wrote: »

Should take that one up with Dublin Bus since it's a commercial route, whilst there are other options that serve the airport such as the 16/41/700/702/703/757 that all overlap to some degree with the 747.

Yeah it's never an issue with the 757.
Im sure dublin bus is aware if it. Plenty of Google reviews of the 747 Airlink stating that the bus didn't stop and just drove past. One issue is that some drivers stop picking up passengers when the luggage rack is full - probably a h&s thing but still irritating for those left at the stop!

pclive · 07-02-2018 11:29am

The new bus route is to link Tyrrelstown to Broombridge via Finglas West

dfx- · 07-02-2018 11:36am

The whole plan for the Bus Network since 2009 is to do as much as possible with as little resources as possible. And we are still pretending it can work because there is no adapting from this policy.

Network Direct, which is the network we are all still working off, was designed to cut resources and it did it by joining routes together. So it joined random routes together into super long routes that don't work. And we are working this network with new buses, but lower capacity buses because ten years ago, there was a need to reduce capacity.

Then there's fuel economy (more cost concerns), environmental concerns, war on staff costs, tendering process (which is actually about lowering said costs, not customer consideration) before you get near concerns of customers or passengers.

There's no sign of the overarching and flawed principle of pushing resources to beyond breaking point going away. We are going to pretend it just needs tweaking.

devnull · 07-02-2018 1:15pm

hardanro wrote: »

A tweet from this morning:

https://twitter.com/dublinbusnews/status/960795528303964160

I was also at the bus stop (Ardmore Hotel) around 8 am. There was already 15 people waiting and more coming. After the first 2 buses didn't stop (40D & 140) I realized that the situation will only get worse so I walk up the road.
I managed to get on a bus at 8:30 in Finglas village. The bus didn't stop to pick up other passengers until St Vincent School.

The new timetable on the 140 should have helped somewhat because since the timetable refresh there has been an extra bus added in AM Peak ex Finglas which has increased the frequency to every 8 minutes between 0655 and 0815

There is talk of further changes to the 40 group of routes in the coming weeks, subject to union approval on rosters, including a new route to Broombridge that should hopefully free up some capacity on the 40/40D/140 as it's likely that people taking local journeys will in part switch to this route.

suicide_circus wrote: »

Yeah it's never an issue with the 757.
Im sure dublin bus is aware if it. Plenty of Google reviews of the 747 Airlink stating that the bus didn't stop and just drove past. One issue is that some drivers stop picking up passengers when the luggage rack is full - probably a h&s thing but still irritating for those left at the stop!

I would simply vote with my feet - there are no shortage of services that serve the airport and if the 757 route is not suitable than consider the Aircoach services since the price is either the same or similar depending on where you are traveling from.

AlekSmart wrote: »

It's of interest that the NTA put's it's PR Guru out to bat when dealing with this issue.

An indication perhaps,of how it percieves the situation internally ?

PR people experienced and recruited to deal with the press, dealing with the press, who'd have thought they would actually be doing their job?

dfx- wrote: »

The whole plan for the Bus Network since 2009 is to do as much as possible with as little resources as possible. And we are still pretending it can work because there is no adapting from this policy.

Network Direct, which is the network we are all still working off, was designed to cut resources and it did it by joining routes together. So it joined random routes together into super long routes that don't work.

I'm by no means a fan of Network Direct, what they did to the 4 was terrible to the point that passengers completely abandoned this when Dublin Bus simply didn't care about that and many passengers like myself stopped using it, but on some other corridors there was massive oversupply of services and duplication which was not sustainable with non clockface timetables, similar services that were departing at the same time and then big gaps.

However I too am not totally convinced by these ultra-long cross city routes - certainly there was a need to improve the route network than it was before and properly co-ordinate timetables, but some of the routes are far too long and that has an impact on reliability and it's something that I hope BusConnects can address, as the noises made at the start are certainly promising in this respect but the proof will be in the pudding.

And we are working this network with new buses, but lower capacity buses because ten years ago, there was a need to reduce capacity.

The new buses have been able to coax people out of their cars because they offer a nicer environment that has helped shed in part the image that Dublin Bus has in the past with sitting next to someone smelly on the same seat with leaky windows, whilst also being able to provide WIFI, on bus information and also more lately USB Sockets. Sure to you and me we'd use a bus without these but there is part of the population who won't and a more modern fleet is part of the reason we're seeing a modal shift to public transport in the last few years.

Having two sets of doors can really decrease journey times and allow buses to complete their laps of a route faster by virtually eliminating dwell time, which is a massive problem in Dublin which will in turn increase the capacity provided per hour on many routes with the same amount of buses. However the problem is whilst we have the vehicles in Dublin for this at the moment to greatly improve these things we don't yet have the fare, revenue protection system or the operating environment which means we see nothing like the benefits that they can bring.

Then there's fuel economy (more cost concerns), environmental concerns, war on staff costs, tendering process (which is actually about lowering said costs, not customer consideration) before you get near concerns of customers or passengers.

There's no sign of the overarching and flawed principle of pushing resources to beyond breaking point going away. We are going to pretend it just needs tweaking.

I am supportive of the tendering program because no monopoly I have ever seen has been the most efficient or customer focused operation because they simply don't have to be. Hopefully it will shed some of the more outdated working practices from Dublin Bus and make it easier to introduce late running services rather than being blocked by unions and also making it easier to adjust timetables rather than having long drawn out processes where a timetable is created but it takes months to go live because of union disagreement on rosters.

Personally I think increasing the Dublin City bus fleet by over 130 buses in little over 12 months is a sizable increase and as the year goes on we should start to see the fruits of that, we've seen the start of that already, but of course there is still more that needs to be done and will be done as the year goes on based on the plans that are there.

Also you have to bear in mind that a sizable percentage of the current issues are related to the LUAS Cross City project being completed and traffic issues in the city center and Dublin City Council's ineptitude.

hmmm · 07-02-2018 1:38pm

The madness of our low rise suburban sprawl is coming home to roost. Even now, city planners are greenlighting Clonburris, a new city effectively of 26,000 people in the middle of nowhere suburb-wise, with barely a mention as to how these people are supposed to get to their places of work.

Even if they open the Kishogue railway station, the trains going past are already full. The M50 is at capacity. The buses leaving Lucan are full at rush hour, and the new LUAS has meant their commute times are absurd.

Aside from Clonburris, we have far flung suburbs like Cherrywood due to see thousands of new homes, all of which will be feeding into an already busy LUAS. Good luck getting on further down the line. We are building endless numbers of high rise apartments in places like Ballymun & Finglas, and the city centre stays resolutely low-rise for the most part.

It's complete madness, and we know it's complete madness, but we seem to do nothing about it.

Technocentral · 07-02-2018 3:23pm

The 40s (a,b,d) and 140 on Finglas Road (opposite Prospect Hill) Apartments are a disaster in the morning 3-4 go past packed between say 7.25 - 8.50. Needs to be way more of these especially 140s. If there are 3 people at the stop could be 20 - 25 by time next bus comes, no respect for queing so people who arrived late getting on before people waiting 15 - 20 minutes, infuriating.

Edit: Just seen posts above talking about same.

Technocentral · 07-02-2018 3:37pm

Mongfinder General wrote:

The Finglas to Broombridge service is utter nonsense. It takes commuters on a detour through tolka valley to connect with a tram in broombridge. It would be quicker just going to town via the old finglas Road

Its impossible to get on a bus in peak morning time there though, thatâ€™s the only reason people would get a bus to Luas, anyway Broombridge Trams are packed in the morning so will need to be v frequent to take extra load from those feeder buses.Â

Stephen15 · 07-02-2018 3:43pm

hmmm wrote: »

The madness of our low rise suburban sprawl is coming home to roost. Even now, city planners are greenlighting Clonburris, a new city effectively of 26,000 people in the middle of nowhere suburb-wise, with barely a mention as to how these people are supposed to get to their places of work.

Even if they open the Kishogue railway station, the trains going past are already full. The M50 is at capacity. The buses leaving Lucan are full at rush hour, and the new LUAS has meant their commute times are absurd.

Aside from Clonburris, we have far flung suburbs like Cherrywood due to see thousands of new homes, all of which will be feeding into an already busy LUAS. Good luck getting on further down the line. We are building endless numbers of high rise apartments in places like Ballymun & Finglas, and the city centre stays resolutely low-rise for the most part.

It's complete madness, and we know it's complete madness, but we seem to do nothing about it.

Indeed when inner suburbs like Terenure, Templelogue, Clontarf, Cabra, Clonkeagh, Glasnevin and around UCD are full of low density d's and semi d's. Most of these places are choked with traffic aswell due to people driving to places which are far out from the city centre with little public transport priority.

Most European are planned with the city centre and inner suburbs being high density apartments and areas further out near the ring road being predominantly industrial estates and big box retailers.

devnull · 07-02-2018 3:50pm

Technocentral wrote: »

The 40s (a,b,d) and 140 on Finglas Road (opposite Prospect Hill) Apartments are a disaster in the morning 3-4 go past packed between say 7.25 - 8.50. Needs to be way more of these especially 140s. If there are 3 people at the stop could be 20 - 25 by time next bus comes, no respect for queing so people who arrived late getting on before people waiting 15 - 20 minutes, infuriating.

There has been a new timetable implemented this week which sees the 140 frequency now up to every 8 minutes between 06:55 and 08:15 which is an improvement on the old timetable which was only every 10-15 minutes between 06:50 and 07:35 - so additional capacity has been deployed - the 140 is now at 69 times a day ex Finglas compared to 62 previously.

However it's understood that there is a new schedule drawn up for the 40/40A/40B/40D group of routes which may add additional capacity, subject to the new rosters being approved by the unions which should hopefully help further.

sharper · 07-02-2018 4:18pm

One annoying issue is the realtime tracker will (sort of) tell you when a bus is due but not whether you can actually get on it.

If a bus is skipping stops it would be nice if the tracking indicated this.

adam240610 · 07-02-2018 4:24pm

Trying to get the 84x is nigh impossible to get home from around the UCD region after 6, always about twenty people waiting for it but they never stop.

dr.fuzzenstein · 07-02-2018 4:33pm

bebeman wrote: »

No mention of timetable anywhere.

The greatest Irish works of fiction are Ulysses, The Picture of Dorian Grey and the Dublin Bus Timetables.

suicide_circus · 07-02-2018 7:57pm

hmmm wrote: »

The madness of our low rise suburban sprawl is coming home to roost. Even now, city planners are greenlighting Clonburris, a new city effectively of 26,000 people in the middle of nowhere suburb-wise, with barely a mention as to how these people are supposed to get to their places of work.

Even if they open the Kishogue railway station, the trains going past are already full. The M50 is at capacity. The buses leaving Lucan are full at rush hour, and the new LUAS has meant their commute times are absurd.

Aside from Clonburris, we have far flung suburbs like Cherrywood due to see thousands of new homes, all of which will be feeding into an already busy LUAS. Good luck getting on further down the line. We are building endless numbers of high rise apartments in places like Ballymun & Finglas, and the city centre stays resolutely low-rise for the most part.

It's complete madness, and we know it's complete madness, but we seem to do nothing about it.

its truly depressing. Not only is there no end in sight but there are also no moves afoot to address the issue

Arcade_Tryer · 07-02-2018 9:45pm

hmmm wrote: »

It's complete madness, and we know it's complete madness, but we seem to do nothing about it.

Nonsense. The vocal minority who support height restrictions and oppose developments because of heritage know what is best for the rest of us.

thomasj · 07-02-2018 10:35pm

Got to the quays for a 39a tonight at 20.15. one arrived at 21.00

Just missed a 39, and stupidly turned down the next one as it said 39a in 1 minute (more like 10)

Of course the 39a was packed the whole way back to blanch.

devnull · 07-02-2018 10:40pm

thomasj wrote: »

Got to the quays for a 39a tonight at 20.15. one arrived at 21.00

Just missed a 39, and stupidly turned down the next one as it said 39a in 1 minute (more like 10)

Of course the 39a was packed the whole way back to blanch.

From what I've heard there are new timetables being proposed for routes 4, 7, 13, 14, 27, 39, 41 and 145 among others in addition to the changes over the past few weeks, subject to union approval on the rosters for them.

It's also expected that routes 39 and 41 will be the first to go 24 hours, if the current issues with the unions are worked out in relation to post 11:30 departures.

thomasj · 07-02-2018 10:42pm

devnull wrote:

From what I've heard there are new timetables being proposed for routes 4, 7, 13, 14, 27, 39, 41 and 145 subject to union approval on the rosters for them.

devnull wrote:

It's also expected that route 39/41 will be the first to go 24 hours, if the current issues with the unions are worked out in relation to post 11:30 departures.

That's good to hear, it badly needs to be looked at and sorted.

fly_agaric · 07-02-2018 10:48pm

bebeman wrote: »

"the situation is that they’re (Dublin Bus) under contract with the NTA, they’re the providers, they’re contracted to us. If they want to vary the conditions of the contract, they put a formal process to us and we would consider it and make a detention as to whether it goes ahead or not,” O’Gara explains"

That does not sound particularly responsive alright. A long list of worthies must consider things carefully. Maybe there are some good aspects to NTA but it is another layer of bureaucrats; politicians on top with the purse strings, NTA controlling another set of strings when it comes to DB distributing what are really its resources (until FG/FF "dream" of privatising the bus service comes to fruition).
It is also a quango, walled off from the great unwashed who use public transport + might offend its ears with gripes and moans, & only accountable to the minister/Dept. of Transport.

Charles Babbage · 07-02-2018 10:55pm

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

Nonsense. The vocal minority who support height restrictions and oppose developments because of heritage know what is best for the rest of us.

Heritage is important, once lost you cannot get it back. There are plenty of places to promote higher developement which do not impact on valueable heritage. This debate seems to promote ridiculous zealotry on both sides.

The city authorities have to take the lead on this, which they do not do, and purchase land in the public interest. For instance I would compulsorily purchase both roads here and demolish them, replacing them with a higher development overlooking either the park or the liffey. Offer the residents a penthouse flat if need be, and several hundred others could also live here.

08-02-2018 12:27pm

Technocentral wrote: »

If there are 3 people at the stop could be 20 - 25 by time next bus comes, no respect for queing so people who arrived late getting on before people waiting 15 - 20 minutes, infuriating.

One of my pet peeves is that a lot of the drivers pull up at the real time info display, instead of at the actual stop. If you are at the head of the queue, you can often be 8th or 9th onto the bus, which isn't always enough for a spot. Drives me mad. I always make a point of saying "fair play for pulling in at the stop" when they do.

LeinsterDub · 08-02-2018 12:41pm

Technocentral wrote: »

The 40s (a,b,d) and 140 on Finglas Road (opposite Prospect Hill) Apartments are a disaster in the morning 3-4 go past packed between say 7.25 - 8.50. Needs to be way more of these especially 140s. If there are 3 people at the stop could be 20 - 25 by time next bus comes, no respect for queing so people who arrived late getting on before people waiting 15 - 20 minutes, infuriating.

Edit: Just seen posts above talking about same.

But of course some people on here will tell you there is no need to extend the Luas to Finglas.

Mongfinder General · 08-02-2018 1:39pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

One of my pet peeves is that a lot of the drivers pull up at the real time info display, instead of at the actual stop. If you are at the head of the queue, you can often be 8th or 9th onto the bus, which isn't always enough for a spot. Drives me mad. I always make a point of saying "fair play for pulling in at the stop" when they do.

It is not the drivers job to referee this nonsense. If commuters want to behave like animals then they can fight amongst themselves. If it occurs on the bus the driver should call the police.

Technocentral · 08-02-2018 1:48pm

Mongfinder General wrote: »

It is not the drivers job to referee this nonsense. If commuters want to behave like animals then they can fight amongst themselves. If it occurs on the bus the driver should call the police.

No one saidit was, more bus's needed to stop this nonsense.

XPS_Zero · 08-02-2018 11:34pm

adam240610 wrote: »

Trying to get the 84x is nigh impossible to get home from around the UCD region after 6, always about twenty people waiting for it but they never stop.

Every bus driver in Dublin DESPISES the UCD stop, because these (and I am a UCD student) supposedly educated folks don't understand the notion of "i have two spaces - NO NO NO not twenty spaces - TWO". I often looked around and wondered how half these people got in, rote learning for the LC where you learn the exam rather than actually educate yourself I suspect.

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

A good step might be to limit use of free travel by elderly to off peak times like it was originally.

It didn't really do anything that's why it was got rid of, unfortunately it would not put a dent in our problem today.

The rush hours, 6:30-9:00 and 5-7pm are times seniors and people with a serious enough illness to get disability would avoid traveling if they could. When I was getting my cancer treatment and suffering from pretty severe depression and anxiety right alongside it I actively tried to avoid rush hour if I could because:

The bus/train/tram would be packed so I'm not gonna get a seat. You might get someone standing up for a pregnant woman or a senior but to look at me it won't be obvious at first glance that there is anything wrong with me other than paleness and dry skin (the days of everyone looking bald with dark circles on their eyes when they have cancer are gone, treatments moved on, that look only comes with very advanced stages) and thinning hair. I wore a baseball cap a lot to cover the thinned hair, but thinning hair, dry skin and paleness in a twentysomething could just be a mix of baldness and not being metrosexual, they'd have no clue you were stick. I actually faced a situation several times where I got filthy looks or comments when I did not volunteer seats for other people.

Because it's backed it's hot, and I'm already uncomfortable as it is

Because when you're sick or older waiting longer in the freezing cold as more busses and trams that are full zoom by is absolute torture.

So not that many used it...unless they had to.
Here is where the problem comes in. Everyone on disability, and most seniors, have illnesses of some kind. Which means many of them are seeing consultants or going for scans etc If you've any experience of being seriously ill or even getting something checked out you'll notice they tend to block many of these type of appointments very early in the am or in the 2-4 period. Usually in the am though many consultants do their follow ups or initial checks with outpatients in the am then their rounds /wards work in the evenings.

You will be told to come in for 9:30 or 10am and wait, could be 11/12 again you get seen depending on people in front of you. In this situation you have to get a rush hour bus/train/tram - you've no choice.

The other problem was you had farcical situations where people coming back from medical appointments, or social stuff, who were sick or older, were racing in a panic to get to the barriers or bus in time before the rush hour officially started, some of them arriving seconds too late and having to pay. Now when you are making the average industrial wage of 600-1000 a week paying a 5er for transport seems like nothing but a budget of 193-230 is way thinner. My rent was €125 a week (contrary to popular myth rent subsidies are not easy to get I was told my rent had to be lower then go higher for a while OR I had to declare myself homeless for a few months - but being a normal person I could not do that), food was about 35-40, then I had a 10er off each bill, I had almost no margin for error and had to save every week€ then for the monthly prescription charges which of course are capped, but when you are getting a dozen scripts you hit the cap, and a cap of 25 that you'd laugh at if you were working FT is suddenly more serious when your budget margin is within 10-15 euro at the end of each week, you have to be so careful.

When I was mistakenly on sick pay first as opposed to disability (disability is for long term conditions that will take more than a year to treat) I didn't get an FT pass, I had to engage in the most elaborate fraud you can imagine to to be able to operate public transport. I reprogrammed leap cards to get more journeys (someone in leap must have seen an anomaly on their computer screens because I lost the ability to do it eventually but I got a good 9 months out of it which was a Godsend), did the old tag on - go through - tag off, tried to get an entire days worth of tasks done in the Luas journey tag on period of 90min which led to ridiculous situations of me bolting around shops at high speeds and running to Luas stops when I was in no physical condition to do so.

We have this problem because our last government did not know the difference between an investment and an expense and turned down a golden opportunity to have a stimulus program and keep all those unemployed construction people, engineers etc working by finishing Transport 21 - and instead they canceled it and made cuts to public transport all throughout that era.
They did this for short term fiscal reasons, under the bizarre philosophy that borrowing to INVEST in something that will get you a RETURN is insanity but borrowing to bail out dead banks who will never repay the money let alone the cost of their crash is responsible (I know it had to be done, but there is a worse case for the bank bailouts than continuing T21). They did it knowing full well that population was going up, demographics and social insurance factors meant we'd need more immigration over time, and that after the recession GDP would go up sharply with more people going back to work and this would strain the system, now they're playing catch up for their previous stupidity - the problems way bigger than a few owlones on the bus taking up seats - the only way to solve this is major investment - which they claim they'll do - but I won't hold my breath.

ALSO As hmmm already said, our ultra-moronic policy of spreading OUT instead of UP is also to blame, because our culture has this notion that a tiny p1ssy garden is worth it taking 2 hours to get to work and 2 to get back.

trellheim · 09-02-2018 2:39pm

Great post.

As a recent in the last couple of years mover to Dublin 7 the amount of bus usage on the Stonybatter Navan Road Blanch corridor , 39a/37 and the 70 is phenomenal. Genuinely should be 46a frequency or better

bebeman · 10-02-2018 1:10am

devnull wrote: »

It's also expected that routes 39 and 41 will be the first to go 24 hours, if the current issues with the unions are worked out in relation to post 11:30 departures.

So much negativity, if you dont know what you are talking about it is best to not say anything.
Agreement for 24 hour service where signed sealed and delivered years ago, unions have no problems with it, in fact all driver hired since 2014 have in the fine print of contract that they can be put on 24 hour bus service.
Now i know you and others here are not going to like what i post next, but the truth is the hold up is the NTA, imagine that, DB and the evil unions are not to blame for the lack of 24 hour buses in Dublin.

bebeman · 10-02-2018 1:19am

Deleted User wrote: »

One of my pet peeves is that a lot of the drivers pull up at the real time info display, instead of at the actual stop. If you are at the head of the queue, you can often be 8th or 9th onto the bus, which isn't always enough for a spot. Drives me mad. I always make a point of saying "fair play for pulling in at the stop" when they do.

Here is a tip from a bus driver.
STICK YOUR HAND OUT FOR THE BUS.
Big crowd at stop, several routes use stop, people stand around staring at the bus, do they want this bus or not? i and other drivers will stop beside the first person to put a hand out

devnull · 10-02-2018 1:21am

bebeman wrote: »

So much negativity, if you dont know what you are talking about it is best to not say anything.

Agreement for 24 hour service where signed sealed and delivered years ago, unions have no problems with it, in fact all driver hired since 2014 have in the fine print of contract that they can be put on 24 hour bus service.
Now i know you and others here are not going to like what i post next, but the truth is the hold up is the NTA, imagine that, DB and the evil unions are not to blame for the lack of 24 hour buses in Dublin.

24 Hour Services
There was a stand off last year in relation to departures that are post 23:30 which I have been told has not been resolved - The following is an excerpt from SIPTU.

This Union’s stance is and has always been that no P.S.O. journeys can commence post 23.30 hours. We do however accept that over the years Reps have entered into local agreements to allow some post 23.30 hours journeys as they were contained in exceptionally good schedules which delivered improved work-life balance to our members. In circumstances where Management attempts to introduce unacceptable schedules which propose post 23.30 hours journeys our stance will remain as above – i.e. No Agreement.

Please be advised, that in future if any journeys commencing post 23.30 hours are agreed locally, SIPTU’s central committee holds the right to rescind such local agreements and under no circumstances will any post 23.30 hours journeys set a precedent going forward.

Route 39/41 being discussed by union
In addition a SIPTU circular in January stated the following

Growth is also planned for weekend services and the Company have also advised that the NTA is seeking the introduction of a 24 hour service on Routes 39 & 41 and also along other corridors. These 2 issues are to be discussed in detail at the IR [Industrial relations] forum next Tues the 23rd Jan.

bebeman · 10-02-2018 1:28am

devnull wrote: »

24 Hour Services
There was a stand off last year in relation to departures that are post 23:30 which I have been told has not been resolved - The following is an excerpt from SIPTU.

Route 39/41 being discussed by union
In addition a SIPTU circular in January stated the following

Yet again i will post, Agreement for 24 hour service where signed sealed and delivered years ago.
What part of this do you fail to understand?
Pre 2014 drivers wont be doing it, understand that was a sticking point, changing the term of their contracts, unions objected to this, so new contracts where drawn up for drivers hired from 2014 onward, unions have no problems with this.
The hold up is the NTA.
Is that easy for you to understand?

Mr.Cool2015 · 10-02-2018 1:34am

Route 39A,70 and 46A are always packed.

devnull · 10-02-2018 1:36am

bebeman wrote: »

Yet again i will post, Agreement for 24 hour service where signed sealed and delivered years ago.

If that is the case and the issue was dealt with years ago why were SIPTU writing letters to Dublin Bus as of a little over 6 months ago saying that they had issues with departures post 23:30 and also that the top of the union has the right to veto any agreements which were made locally?

The hold up is the NTA.

The recent communications sent by John Murphy at SIPTU to the members of the same trade union suggests that this is an industrial relations issue, due to the fact he himself stated that it needs to be discussed at an industrial relations forum.

bebeman · 10-02-2018 2:15am

devnull wrote: »

If that is the case and the issue was dealt with years ago why were SIPTU writing letters to Dublin Bus as of a little over 6 months ago saying that they had issues with departures post 23:30 and also that the top of the union has the right to veto any agreements which were made locally?

The recent communications sent by John Murphy at SIPTU to the members of the same trade union suggests that this is an industrial relations issue, due to the fact he himself stated that it needs to be discussed at an industrial relations forum.

Take the pro NTA blinkers off!
Pre 2014 driver wont be doing post 23:30 departures.
Do you understand?
Agreement signed sealed and delivered that post 2014 driver will do post 23:30 departures.
Do you understand?
The hold up is the NTA.
Do you understand?

Cookie_Monster · 10-02-2018 3:40am

bebeman wrote: »

Take the pro NTA blinkers off!
Pre 2014 driver wont be doing post 23:30 departures.
Do you understand?
Agreement signed sealed and delivered that post 2014 driver will do post 23:30 departures.
Do you understand?
The hold up is the NTA.
Do you understand?

what NTA blinkers?, Dev has posted that there are actual issues still ongoing, your only response is 'lalala' finger in ears...

How about actually addressing the fact, or providing the slightest proof that the issues dev has raised are not actually issues at all?

Simply stating it's fine, contrary to known info available, without any proof what so ever is just trolling IMO.

bebeman · 10-02-2018 11:17am

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

what NTA blinkers?, Dev has posted that there are actual issues still ongoing, your only response is 'lalala' finger in ears...

How about actually addressing the fact, or providing the slightest proof that the issues dev has raised are not actually issues at all?

Simply stating it's fine, contrary to known info available, without any proof what so ever is just trolling IMO.

Only trolling going on here is the constant bashing of DB and unions from posters who do not know what they are talking about.
The SIPTU documents he refers to have NOTHING to do with a 24 hour service, they are to do with new timetables on routes, where DB tried to get a departure after 2330.
The only one i currently know of is the midnight 84, in the past there was a 44 and 184 that departed after 2330, these are what the letter refers to as local agreements.
The Unions and DB have already agreed to 24 hour bus service and did so years ago, the hold up now is The NTA, some posters here have a set of blinkers on which prevents them from seeing any wrongdoing by the NTA, it appeared that the LUAS cross city mess has lifted the veil for some on this issue but now they have falling back into old bad habits of blaming the wrong people for problems that have nothing to do with them.
These same posters are in denial that DB has had serious trouble recruiting drivers the last few years, the fact is these new drivers are contracted to work 24 hour service, but DB knows if they force them to do it many will walk, so they have offered increased pay and conditions to try get drivers to volunteer to work these shifts.
Now DB wait for the NTA to give permission to run theses 24 hour services.
DB and unions as the bad guys is a figment of your imagination, i repeatedly posted that DB cant put on extra Buses without the permission of the NTA, the pro NTA posters claimed this was false, then the NTA said exactly the same thing the other day and still some refuse to believe.

""Asked whether Dublin Bus has the freedom to add more buses to a route if demand is there, the NTA said a process is in place where such an application can be made.

“Basically, the situation is that they’re (Dublin Bus) under contract with the NTA, they’re the providers, they’re contracted to us. If they want to vary the conditions of the contract, they put a formal process to us and we would consider it and make a detention as to whether it goes ahead or not,” O’Gara explains."

devnull · 10-02-2018 12:33pm

bebeman wrote: »

The SIPTU documents he refers to have NOTHING to do with a 24 hour service, they are to do with new timetables on routes, where DB tried to get a departure after 2330.

If Dublin Bus is going to run 24 hour services in the future, then they would need to have departures after 23:30 in order to run such services, so it's very much relevant to this discussion imo.

The only one i currently know of is the midnight 84

There isn't a midnight 84 - the last departures are 23:30 ex Blackrock and 23:30 ex Newcastle, Monday to Friday, Saturday and Sunday.

in the past there was a 44 and 184 that departed after 2330, these are what the letter refers to as local agreements.

So you are saying that there was a 44 and 184 that departed after 23:30 which the union used their central powers to rescind and stop operating despite there being a previous local agreement to operate them?

The Unions and DB have already agreed to 24 hour bus service and did so years ago, the hold up now is The NTA.

So if the hold-up is the NTA, who have stated several times about the desire for 24 hour services, why is the union saying the NTA is seeking the introduction of these routes and these things have to be discussed at an industrial relations forum? Surely if everything is already agreed to in relation to 24 hour routes there is nothing in relation to industrial relations issues about 24 hour routes to discuss at said forum?

These same posters are in denial that DB has had serious trouble recruiting drivers the last few years.

Would this be the same Dublin Bus who have not been recruiting for drivers since January 2017. I have no doubts that recruiting bus drivers is not as easy as some people make out, however the fact the company has not needed to recruit for over a year suggests there isn't a massive staff shortage in DB either.

I repeatedly posted that DB cant put on extra Buses without the permission of the NTA, the pro NTA posters claimed this was false, then the NTA said exactly the same thing the other day and still some refuse to believe.

Dublin Bus have no right to increase timetables without the NTA's permission - this has been the case for many years now. However there is a passage that is in the PSO contract that allows for auxiliary (not extra timetabled) departures to be provided, which then have to be promptly reported to the NTA afterwards.

packed buses...

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