Storage heaters or oil heating for rental property

oldsmokey · 10-12-2018 9:27pm #1

Hi, we,re doing up an spartment to rent. Small rursl town, lots of Polish, one of whom will likely end up in the property..question is, shoild we reinstate the existing ch oil fired system, or fire in some storage heaters?
What do renters prefer?
Tia

dennyk · 11-12-2018 1:16pm

Storage heaters are worse for the tenant, as they usually cost more to run and are more complex to properly manage temperature with, but they're much better for you as they require little or no ongoing maintenance. Oil-fired heaters with boilers need more TLC (servicing the system regularly, bleeding radiators, etc.) which you will have to pay for, and if the tenant lets the oil reservoir run dry, it may require expensive repairs to get it going again (which you will be obligated to do immediately, as heating is required under the minimum rental standards). If you can have storage heaters put in for a reasonable cost, that will probably be the best long-term option for a rental, given that most tenants are not likely to be very picky in the current market.

antoinolachtnai · 11-12-2018 1:45pm

There is another thread here somewhere about putting in an air to air heat pump to heat an apartment. This might be a solution worth considering.

A lot depends on whether the apartment is really cold. If it is, then you need to be sure the new heating system, whatever it is, has plenty capacity.

Claw Hammer · 11-12-2018 7:00pm

There are 2 aspects to this. What about the tenants preferences. Secondly what about your resale value? You should talk to a local auctioneer.

the_syco · 11-12-2018 9:32pm

First off, no-one seems to know how storage heaters work. But they'll figure it out at no cost to you.

If they don't know to check the amount of oil there is in the tank, they'll run it until the tank is dry, and ring you when they top it and the oil burner won't switch on due to an airlock. It will probably cost you to have it fixed by an engineer.

Please ensure that the oil pipe is above ground, as otherwise if it bursts underground, the tenant will only find out after they've put in a 2nd tank of oil (happened to myself in a previous rented house).

=-=

I prefer an oil fired system. It's cold, oil heats the place up. Storage heaters only work during the day from the previous night; there also may not be any heat left in them come 6pm.

Rows Grower · 11-12-2018 9:49pm

Oil heating is a way better option than storage heaters. You should show the person renting how to dip the tank to check for oil and how to bleed the boiler if is air locked and you shouldn't have any problems.
Storage heaters can be set to work outside of the night saver electricity but they are a pain in the proverbial trying to master for optimal heating when needed and they cost a lot of money in electricity which is of no benefit to landlord or tenant.

Mrs OBumble · 11-12-2018 10:25pm

Storage are far better: too much risk of oil being stolen .

Rows Grower · 11-12-2018 10:48pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Storage are far better: too much risk of oil being stolen .

Does it happen a lot?

irisheddie85 · 11-12-2018 10:54pm

If you going to get long term tenants who will use the heat correctly put in oil and you won't end up with a damp mouldy house when they move out. If you are expecting renters lasting less than a year stuck in storage heaters and expect to have to repaint every year to cover damp in poorly heated rooms.

L1011 · 11-12-2018 10:54pm

Rows Grower wrote: »

Does it happen a lot?

Easily accessible, not overlooked/quiet area tanks would have a relatively high risk of theft. Tanks behind terraced houses are unlikely to be touched; a tank on a holiday house should probably never have more than 100l in just in case.

OP has said this is an apartment, these would rarely have OFCH so the tank could be in an odd location with higher or lower risks.

Effects · 11-12-2018 11:02pm

Put in storage heaters if you plan to go back in time and rent your place out in the 80s/early 90s.

Rows Grower · 11-12-2018 11:03pm

L1011 wrote: »

Easily accessible, not overlooked/quiet area tanks would have a relatively high risk of theft. Tanks behind terraced houses are unlikely to be touched; a tank on a holiday house should probably never have more than 100l in just in case.

OP has said this is an apartment, these would rarely have OFCH so the tank could be in an odd location with higher or lower risks.

Also said it was in a small rural town.

Effects · 11-12-2018 11:03pm

Rows Grower wrote: »

Does it happen a lot?

Not a lot. But it does happen. Wouldn't make me choose electric over oil.

Rows Grower · 11-12-2018 11:04pm

Effects wrote: »

Not a lot. But it does happen. Wouldn't make me choose electric over oil.

I was thinking the same.

ted1 · 11-12-2018 11:10pm

Effects wrote: »

Put in storage heaters if you plan to go back in time and rent your place out in the 80s/early 90s.

Actually they are making a come back and much more user friendly

Franz Von Peppercorn · 11-12-2018 11:12pm

I have storage heaters in the main room in my (large enough apartment). Built a few years ago. Comes with thermostat controls etc. Very toasty.

L1011 · 11-12-2018 11:12pm

New storage heaters really aren't as awful as the 80s ones most people remember. You do need to get a night rate meter installed or else the economy of them collapses though.

Effects · 11-12-2018 11:13pm

ted1 wrote: »

Actually they are making a come back and much more user friendly

Actually, you're probably right. The guy in the suppliers said that to me a while back.

oldsmokey · 11-12-2018 11:17pm

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

I have storage heaters in the main room in my (large enough apartment). Built a few years ago. Comes with thermostat controls etc. Very toasty.

Thats useful info, right there..

oldsmokey · 11-12-2018 11:19pm

Effects wrote: »

Actually, you're probably right. The guy in the suppliers said that to me a while back.

Thats grest folks, ill price up the modern types, see how itll go, thanks

Rows Grower · 11-12-2018 11:31pm

oldsmokey wrote: »

Thats grest folks, ill price up the modern types, see how itll go, thanks

I know someone that replaced the older model from about 15 years ago with the newest most efficient ones they could afford.

A close relative got a good discount on them, meant to use only one third of the power and are about one tenth of the weight. Can control them with an app on the phone from abroad blah de blah.

Waste of time compared to oil heating or a stove with a boiler.

AlmightyCushion · 12-12-2018 1:12am

I would strongly avoid renting or buying a place that had storage heating and I know many others who would do the same. If I was just renting a place then I would definitely avoid them. All it takes is one gobshíte to not have a clue how to use it to give you a sky high bill. In a landlord's/seller's market like we have now that might not be much of a problem. Tenants/buyers will have to take what they can get and might compromise on that. But when the market normalises or if we ever get a situation like in the crash where it was a struggle to rent or sell a place, then your place would be a lot less desirable than a place with gas or oil.

oldsmokey · 13-12-2018 12:34am

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

I would strongly avoid renting or buying a place that had storage heating and I know many others who would do the same. If I was just renting a place then I would definitely avoid them. All it takes is one gobshíte to not have a clue how to use it to give you a sky high bill. In a landlord's/seller's market like we have now that might not be much of a problem. Tenants/buyers will have to take what they can get and might compromise on that. But when the market normalises or if we ever get a situation like in the crash where it was a struggle to rent or sell a place, then your place would be a lot less desirable than a place with gas or oil.

Great advice, ta

Mrs OBumble · 13-12-2018 12:54am

Effects wrote: »

Not a lot. But it does happen. Wouldn't make me choose electric over oil.

Putting your whole winter heating budget into a tank and having it cleaned out on one go tends to concentrate the mind. Doesn't have to happen often ...once is enough.

Effects · 13-12-2018 12:15pm

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

All it takes is one gobshíte to not have a clue how to use it to give you a sky high bill.

It's the tenants bill, not the landlords.

Dardania · 13-12-2018 12:19pm

Another point to note: there is less possibility of a carbon monoxide incident with electric storage heaters, compared to with an oil boiler.

My advice would be electric heating with good controls, and you won't have any complaints. Oil is going to be increasingly taxed in the coming decade, so you run the risk of the tenant not using the oil heating due to running cost concerns (and so, a damp apartment).

What about rest of the apartment - decent insulation, and ventilation?

AlmightyCushion · 13-12-2018 12:44pm

Effects wrote: »

It's the tenants bill, not the landlords.

I meant in the context of moving into a house share with electric storage heaters. I would be very reluctant to do it because all it takes is one person to cost everyone in the house/apartment a small fortune. I would be very reluctant to live in a place with electric storage heaters and I know many others who would as well.

crossmolinalad · 13-12-2018 2:09pm

Moving out of a house with storage heaters
Never want to rent another house who have them
On day time the house was warm and cosy but when at home after work the heat was gone
Never again

Graces7 · 13-12-2018 4:43pm

crossmolinalad wrote: »

Moving out of a house with storage heaters
Never want to rent another house who have them
On day time the house was warm and cosy but when at home after work the heat was gone
Never again

I refused to use them in one rental. The landlord brought in a gas heater; perfect .

Effects · 13-12-2018 4:52pm

Graces7 wrote: »

I refused to use them in one rental. The landlord brought in a gas heater; perfect .

Gas heaters create excess moisture though. That's why I wouldn't be into them.

antoinolachtnai · 13-12-2018 5:44pm

A gas heater is a pretty expensive source of heat, especially as the main source of heat. In some apartment blocks it may be a breach of the head lease to use a gas heater for fire safety reasons.

oldsmokey · 15-12-2018 4:31pm

Dardania wrote: »

Another point to note: there is less possibility of a carbon monoxide incident with electric storage heaters, compared to with an oil boiler.

My advice would be electric heating with good controls, and you won't have any complaints. Oil is going to be increasingly taxed in the coming decade, so you run the risk of the tenant not using the oil heating due to running cost concerns (and so, a damp apartment).

What about rest of the apartment - decent insulation, and ventilation?

Its an old building., insulated in the 80s, so going to improve on that, decent enough otherwise, i was reared there ~:)

oldsmokey · 15-12-2018 4:34pm

Theres existing plumbing for ch, the boiler is shagged, on balance reading here, renters prefer oil, so i reckon an upgrade to what we have is on the cards, thanks all

zell12 · 15-12-2018 5:44pm

oldsmokey wrote: »

Theres existing plumbing for ch, the boiler is shagged, on balance reading here, renters prefer oil, so i reckon an upgrade to what we have is on the cards, thanks all

Sure let someone steal the contents of the oil tank

Muahahaha · 15-12-2018 9:54pm

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

There is another thread here somewhere about putting in an air to air heat pump to heat an apartment. This might be a solution worth considering.

A lot depends on whether the apartment is really cold. If it is, then you need to be sure the new heating system, whatever it is, has plenty capacity.

Im currently trying to replace storage heaters and was researching air to air heat pumps. Its hard to find much information on them by people who have actually used them. But from what I gather an installation costs somewhere between 7k to 10k so its not a small investment. Also the SEAI only offer a 600 grant on them compared to 3,500 if you install an air to water heat pump.

The main claim behind heat pumps is that for every Kwh of electricity you use to run the pump you receive 4Kwh of heat which is very efficient. However it can be a bit of a disingenious claim because their efficiency depends on the temperature outdoors- if it is freezing outside then the pump goes into defrost mode and the efficieny goes way down to about 2Kwhs of heat for 1Kwh of electricity. I was reading somewhere that you get their full efficiency if the temp outdoors is above 8 or 9 degrees, anything below that and the efficiency goes down. Also they may not be a good idea in a retrofit, its said that insulation needs to be taken care of first before going down the heat pump route. This is because if you are losing heat through bad or no insulation then a heat pump can become massively expensive to run and you end up with huge electricity bills.

antoinolachtnai · 15-12-2018 10:37pm

That is a lot to pay for an air con unit. I don’t know how the install prices out but you can buy 5kw for in the region of GBP 2000

https://www.orionairsales.co.uk/mitsubishi-electric-air-conditioning-ms-wall-unit-a-aa-43-c.asp

If you need to run an electric heater now and again on the coldest day, so what?

ted1 · 15-12-2018 10:40pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

Im currently trying to replace storage heaters and was researching air to air heat pumps. Its hard to find much information on them by people who have actually used them. But from what I gather an installation costs somewhere between 7k to 10k so its not a small investment. Also the SEAI only offer a 600 grant on them compared to 3,500 if you install an air to water heat pump.

The main claim behind heat pumps is that for every Kwh of electricity you use to run the pump you receive 4Kwh of heat which is very efficient. However it can be a bit of a disingenious claim because their efficiency depends on the temperature outdoors- if it is freezing outside then the pump goes into defrost mode and the efficieny goes way down to about 2Kwhs of heat for 1Kwh of electricity. I was reading somewhere that you get their full efficiency if the temp outdoors is above 8 or 9 degrees, anything below that and the efficiency goes down. Also they may not be a good idea in a retrofit, its said that insulation needs to be taken care of first before going down the heat pump route. This is because if you are losing heat through bad or no insulation then a heat pump can become massively expensive to run and you end up with huge electricity bills.

Unless you make the building air tight then forget heat pumps

antoinolachtnai · 15-12-2018 11:02pm

There are the same sorts of issues with stirage heaters. The output of either storage heaters or air con units are just a lot less than a gas or oil boiler of similar cost, at the end of the day.

The issue will be that the heat input is less than the heat loss, not the type of heat source used.

robp · 15-12-2018 11:56pm

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

A gas heater is a pretty expensive source of heat, especially as the main source of heat. In some apartment blocks it may be a breach of the head lease to use a gas heater for fire safety reasons.

As far as I know if you have piped gas available, gas is the cheapest per a unit of heat. Naturally if you have free timber or a heat pump those can be cheaper overall but that is not normally possible.

antoinolachtnai · 16-12-2018 12:01am

Yes for sure. A gas boiler. But not a gas heater running off bottled gas with a naked flame which is what I think was being referred to.

robp · 16-12-2018 6:17am

ted1 wrote: »

Unless you make the building air tight then forget heat pumps

What level of airtightness would you need to pull off a heat pump. Looking at the specs of new builds heats pumps seem to be becoming mainstream. It will be interesting to know of these new houses are airtight enough for them.

CosmicFool · 16-12-2018 7:48am

I've rented a few places the last few years and I've always stayed away from apartments with storage heaters. They cost a fortune. They are a pain for a tenant. As a poster said before newer models are cheaper to run etc etc but you cannot beat oil or gas in my opinion. Way better heating system and heats up the apartment better. As a poster mentioned before even with the storage heaters the new tenants might not use them regularly because they cost more to run and if it's a cold house mould etc might appear.
Spend the extra few quid and treat you're tenants right. Pick people who you'll think won't ruin the place and they'll want to stay.

Graces7 · 16-12-2018 7:58am

Effects wrote: »

Gas heaters create excess moisture though. That's why I wouldn't be into them.

Never found that myself. The flame dries..

Graces7 · 16-12-2018 8:00am

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

A gas heater is a pretty expensive source of heat, especially as the main source of heat. In some apartment blocks it may be a breach of the head lease to use a gas heater for fire safety reasons.

Bottled gas in an isolated cottage. Pay in advance and no bills and easy to budget. and effective. Makes great toast too

Each to his own of course. I now have a solid fuel stove with a backboiler and this is the best ever. _

the_syco · 17-12-2018 12:25am

Graces7 wrote: »

Never found that myself. The flame dries..

Butane causes dampness if not used in a properly ventilated area. Propane doesn't, but propane does create carbon monoxide.

soo35 · 17-12-2018 12:35am

Currently apartment/house hunting. Every time I see a photo with a storage heater on the wall I discard it. Costs too much to use.

_Kaiser_ · 17-12-2018 12:52am

As already said by others, I've actively avoided apartments with storage heating in the past despite everything else looking good. Too many horror stories about bills and they're too awkward to use.

Gas plus proper rads only for me.

17-12-2018 4:31am

robp wrote: »

What level of airtightness would you need to pull off a heat pump. Looking at the specs of new builds heats pumps seem to be becoming mainstream. It will be interesting to know of these new houses are airtight enough for them.

Not sure what the Irish building standards are given they test with vents blocked up and then uncover them, but passive house standard is 0.6 air changes per hour at 50 Pascals last time i looked. I think older houses could be an easier option given could be solid build, easier to airtight the inside and cover it up and insulate externally. Mech ventilation recover heat and some means to heat water and you're good,

cruizer101 · 17-12-2018 10:46am

Graces7 wrote: »

Never found that myself. The flame dries..

Its a funny one as they do seem to dry the air I've even heard of people putting a bowl with water on top to give off some extra moisture.
But the fact is an open gas flame burns the gas with oxygen in the air and produces water and co2.
I'm not sure why when they are adding moisture they seem to dry the air but I do agree they appear to dry it.
Decent ventilation and the moisture shouldn't be an issue.

astrofool · 17-12-2018 4:51pm

cruizer101 wrote: »

Its a funny one as they do seem to dry the air I've even heard of people putting a bowl with water on top to give off some extra moisture.
But the fact is an open gas flame burns the gas with oxygen in the air and produces water and co2.
I'm not sure why when they are adding moisture they seem to dry the air but I do agree they appear to dry it.
Decent ventilation and the moisture shouldn't be an issue.

Because as temperature rises, relative humidity falls. The problem is later when the heat is turned off and the air temperature drops and you're left with a very damp location.

tvjunki · 17-12-2018 5:11pm

Put in oil heating with a condenser oil burner and good plump. That way they are guaranteed heat at any time. Alot of people cannot figure out how to use the storage heaters. Show them how to use and make sure they know not to leave the tank dry or there will be costs to get someone out to bleed the system.

Storage heaters or oil heating for rental property

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