Rathmines family called England

Qualitymark · 01-11-2014 7:51pm #1

I'm hunting for a family called England who lived in Palmerston Road, Rathmines in 1911. The father was a bank official, one of the sons was studying engineering. I can't find them in World War I or in later professional records. Here they are in the 1911 census

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Rathmines___Rathgar_East/Palmerston_Road/39953/

Anyone know? Anyone related to them?

spurious · 01-11-2014 8:07pm

There is a Richard James England at 3 Ashdale Avenue in Terenure in the Dublin electoral list of 1939.

http://www.dublinheritage.ie/

I know it's down as Richard I in the census transcription, but it could be a J.

Qualitymark · 01-11-2014 9:05pm

spurious wrote: »

There is a Richard James England at 3 Ashdale Avenue in Terenure in the Dublin electoral list of 1939.

http://www.dublinheritage.ie/

I know it's down as Richard I in the census transcription, but it could be a J.

You're right - could be either, and James or Joseph or John is more likely than Ignatius or Isidore.

It's really Fred I'm after more than anyone else, but I'd love to find descendants.

Edit - Looking at the I in 'Ita', it's clearly made differently from what might be 'J'.

Edit Eile - There are a good few Englands in the phone book, but I don't feel like ringing strangers…

Hermy · 02-11-2014 12:17pm

Searching Ancestry I found a will record for Frederick Augustus England of 3 Highfield Road, Rathgar who died October 30th 1930 leaving his money to Richard James England (engineer) and Ita Cooper (wife of Austin Owen Cooper).
From the indexes at Family Search this is his marriage to Sophia Brady and this is the record of his death.
Ita married Austin Cooper in 1920.

Qualitymark · 02-11-2014 12:23pm

I don't think Frederick Augustus is the right person; I think perhaps Frederick Joseph England, who married Nora Constance Ouston or Owston in 1928 may be. But further I can't yet track them. (She seems to have died in Worthing in Sussex, but I can't find any shape on Fred England's life.)

Hermy · 02-11-2014 12:27pm

I'm not sure I follow.
I'm quite sure the Frederick Augustus I've linked to is the same Frederick A. linked in your opening post.
Is it the son you're looking for?

Qualitymark · 02-11-2014 12:36pm

Hmm. Now I'm confused. Oh, wait, no, I'm not. Frederick A was the father. Frederick J was the son. It's the son I'm after.

Edit: here they are in the *1901* census

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Rathmines___Rathgar_East/Palmerston_Road/1293791/

(where they're listed as living in Palmerston Road as well, but in number "331", which wasn't the same house, I think - the house numbers are odd in both censuses, but odder in 1901. I think "376" would have been the equivalent house in the 1901 numbering in the census to… oh wait, maybe not. Ack, I need a walk, I'm totally bedazzled by numbers.

Hermy · 02-11-2014 12:45pm

A quick look at the birth indexes doesn't throw up any obvious entries for children born to Fred and Nora.

Qualitymark · 02-11-2014 12:47pm

Somewhere I found a reference to Fred England living in 7 Temple Villas. (Even more confusingly, the Temple Villas terrace in Palmerston Road was sometimes listed as itself, and sometimes as numbers in Palmerston Road; at other times its address was Palmerston Park…)

Hermy · 02-11-2014 1:03pm

A Fred J and Nora C England (aged 41 and 27) appear on the passenger lists on Ancestry traveling from Ceylon (Sri Lanka) to Hull in 1930.
Fred is recorded as a planter with an address at Park Villa, Chaucer Road, Ashford, Middlesex.

shanew · 02-11-2014 1:03pm

Qualitymark wrote: »

..Even more confusingly, the Temple Villas terrace in Palmerston Road was sometimes listed as itself, and sometimes as numbers in Palmerston Road; at other times its address was Palmerston Park…

quite common for houses on terraces to have two numbers at some stage in their history - one for the terrace, and the second for the street. There's a terrace of houses in Clonskeagh that still has both numbers on the gate posts.

The census returns use enumerator numbers for addresses, although these are often the same as street numbers/postal address particularly for the 1911 returns

Qualitymark · 02-11-2014 1:13pm

Hermy wrote: »

A Fred J and Nora C England (aged 41 and 27) appear on the passenger lists on Ancestry traveling from Ceylon (Sri Lanka) to Hull in 1930.
Fred is recorded as a planter with an address at Park Villa, Chaucer Road, Ashford, Middlesex.

Ah, this sounds hopeful!

Presumably Fred Sr left his money to Richard J, who was living in a distinctly less classy house in Harold's Cross, and Ita, rather than Fred Jr because Fred Jr was doing well.

Another reference to Nora Owston (whose father seems to have been Irish) has a house name that comes from an Indian estate - Katugastota; maybe Fred was imported into the family as a capable son-in-law to run the plantation. I wonder what he did before that. Most of the neighbours in that end of Palmerston Road/Temple Villas were things like lawyers or bankers or high-level arts administrators.

It seems not. If this is the same Frederick J England, he's here

http://www.historyofceylontea.com/Estates/view/1429 in Ceylon as an employee of Katugastota tea plantation, then later managing more plantations http://www.historyofceylontea.com/Users/view/11113745

Rathmines family called England

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