Formula 1 2018: General Discussion Thread

ayux4rj6zql2ph · 14-11-2018 7:02pm

Alonso has 1 final race to go, does anyone know the last time that a driver has out qualified their teammate, the same person, at every race across a full season, I don’t know of it ever happening.

mickdw · 14-11-2018 7:44pm

Addyson Gray Glue wrote: »

Alonso has 1 final race to go, does anyone know the last time that a driver has out qualified their teammate, the same person, at every race across a full season, I don’t know of it ever happening.

On another note, how can McLaren be this bad. It boggles the mind.
The facilities and the staff numbers would suggest that they should effortlessly come up with a mid field car. To be running right at the back right now is hard to stomach.
I know we heard the stories of unhappy staff. It must really be a case of nobody giving a damn, and simply turning up and doing their hours and going home.
I always knew Bouillier to be a bluffer but I will admit that I did believe that it was 95 percent Honda that was downing McLaren. That is now clearly proven to not be the case.

Inviere · 14-11-2018 7:46pm

mickdw wrote: »

I did believe that it was 95 percent Honda that was downing McLaren. That is now clearly proven to not be the case.

Same here, I suspect many others too. The reality is, when Honda was with McLaren, it was an abysmal engine, bolted to an abysmal chassis. Today, they've a competitive engine (same donkey as in a Red Bull), but are still propping up the grid with their awful chassis and aero.

quokula · 14-11-2018 8:17pm

In fairness to McLaren, the Honda was a genuinely awful engine and incredibly unreliable, so they've had far less track time than anyone else over the last few years to develop their chassis, and the profile of the power delivery they were developing their chassis against was different to the Renault.

And ultimately the expensive and complex hybrid Formula has completely killed private teams and McLaren and Williams have been the biggest losers in that, as they are up against teams like Toro Rosso, Haas and Sauber who have major technical partnerships with the big teams and constructors. Force India seem to be the only team who've gone against the grain on that, and they bankrupted themselves in the process.

Jordan 199 · 14-11-2018 8:43pm

Maybe Red Bull should put this on the back of Max's car for the next race:

Keep+your+distance.jpg

skipper_G · 14-11-2018 8:54pm

Sauber continuing their revival, they've partnered with Charouz Racing to establish a Sauber Junior program. They've made some fabulous progress under Vasseur.

https://www.sauberf1team.com/news/sauber-motorsport-launches-the-sauber-junior-team

mickdw · 14-11-2018 9:08pm

skipper_G wrote: »

Sauber continuing their revival, they've partnered with Charouz Racing to establish a Sauber Junior program. They've made some fabulous progress under Vasseur.

https://www.sauberf1team.com/news/sauber-motorsport-launches-the-sauber-junior-team

They have made some fantastic progress under Ferrari.

Frank Bullitt · 14-11-2018 9:09pm

vectra · 14-11-2018 9:22pm

muckwarrior wrote: »

In short, I'm not trying to disparage Vettel. He'll undoubtedly be remembered as a great. I'm just saying that I don't think he's quite on the same level as some of the other greats. I honestly believe that if Alonso, Schumacher or a Hamilton clone were in the Ferrari for the past 2 years, they would have won the title.

Alonso had his chance with Ferrari and blew it.
Vettel has dragged that team back to the top, while using respect for his team mate, unlike Alonso that has greed written all over him.

Inviere wrote: »

That's a big big statement to make, and while I've a lot of time for Seb, I think to say he's by far much better than anyone else on the grid is not at all accurate.

OK then
Try looking at it this way
Had Vettel went to Mercedes and Hamilton went to Ferrari
I can only assume Vettel would be at least 8 times champ at this stage.
What would your opinion be on him now?

Inviere · 14-11-2018 9:32pm

vectra wrote: »

OK then
Try looking at it this way
Had Vettel went to Mercedes and Hamilton went to Ferrari
I can only assume Vettel would be at least 8 times champ at this stage.
What would your opinion be on him now?

I don't rate drivers purely based on how many championships they've won. If I did, the grid would be full of a lot of non rated drivers. I don't care to speculate on what if's & buts either. To somewhat answer your question though...I rate Seb highly, he's a world class driver, four times champion of the world, and I'd never bet against him on any given day. Is he "by far" better than Fernando or Lewis, as claimed? No, he's not. He is in their league though, and on any other day there's very little between them all things being equal.

mickdw · 14-11-2018 9:36pm

vectra wrote: »

Alonso had his chance with Ferrari and blew it.
Vettel has dragged that team back to the top, while using respect for his team mate, unlike Alonso that has greed written all over him.

OK then
Try looking at it this way
Had Vettel went to Mercedes and Hamilton went to Ferrari
I can only assume Vettel would be at least 8 times champ at this stage.
What would your opinion be on him now?

That's a big jump.
There is every chance Rosberg would have won more than 1 title and there is also every chance that Hamilton would have taken one or two in a Ferrari so instead of 4 5 1 Vettel Hamilton Rosberg, we could have 5 3 2

Inviere · 14-11-2018 9:39pm

vectra wrote: »

Vettel has dragged that team back to the top

Is that not like saying Lewis dragged Mercedes to the top? It's kinda silly to put an entire teams success on one driver... (plus he hasn't dragged Ferrari to the top either, he's got them to second place so far, no higher than Fernando got them)

Gaoth Laidir · 14-11-2018 9:47pm

The question is would Hamilton have made so many stupid mistakes like Vettel has? I doubt it. Vettel's self-implosion has been spectacular.

JPF82 · 14-11-2018 9:56pm

Some comments here about Vettel and the Toro Rosso he won in. Iirc, that was a Newey based design so not a total dog as it is being made out to be. The win was indeed a spectacular result for the team. But they had developed somewhat from Minardi.

pjohnson · 14-11-2018 10:47pm

Was that the year Toro Rosso actually finished above RB?

Frank Bullitt · 14-11-2018 10:50pm

vectra wrote: »

Alonso had his chance with Ferrari and blew it.
Vettel has dragged that team back to the top, while using respect for his team mate, unlike Alonso that has greed written all over him.

When did Alonso not respect Raikkonen? Must have missed that one.

Jordan 199 · 14-11-2018 10:52pm

pjohnson wrote: »

Was that the year Toro Rosso actually finished above RB?

It is. Toro Rosso scored ten more points than Red Bull Racing in the 2008 Constructors Championship.

Frank Bullitt · 14-11-2018 11:14pm

Jordan 199 wrote: »

It is. Toro Rosso scored ten more points than Red Bull Racing in the 2008 Constructors Championship.

It was also design by Newey as well. The STR2, STR2-B and STR3 were variants of the Red Bull.

chicorytip · 14-11-2018 11:26pm

mickdw wrote:

I'd give leClerc a few races and then I think he will start to get the upper hand. I don't know what kind of contract he would have signed but if he starts qualifying in front of Vettel, contract won't matter. LeClerc is the first driver since Schumacher to regularly put the car far ahead of where it should be and that was after only a few races.

Sauber are exactly where they should be - seventh or eighth. Leclerc does not appear to be that exceptionally talented. Most drivers on the grid would perform similarly in the same car. He has made major errors in races this season resulting in crashes. This is a strange appointment by Ferrari - considering their history of hiring experienced race winners - and was made primarily to counter the Verstappen effect. In terms of overall ability he's not in the same league as the Dutchman.

Burkie1203 · 14-11-2018 11:31pm

chicorytip wrote: »

Sauber are exactly where they should be - seventh or eighth. Leclerc does not appear to be that exceptionally talented. Most drivers on the grid would perform similarly in the same car. He has made major errors in races this season resulting in crashes. This is a strange appointment by Ferrari - considering their history of hiring experienced race winners - and was made primarily to counter the Verstappen effect. In terms of overall ability he's not in the same league as the Dutchman.

Ferrari need someone who differs from Kimi in every way on track.

They also need to sort out strategy on pit wall too

quokula · 14-11-2018 11:49pm

Jordan 199 wrote: »

It is. Toro Rosso scored ten more points than Red Bull Racing in the 2008 Constructors Championship.

Thanks to Vettel. The other Toro Rosso finished well behind both Red Bulls.

skipper_G · 14-11-2018 11:52pm

chicorytip wrote: »

Sauber are exactly where they should be - seventh or eighth. Leclerc does not appear to be that exceptionally talented. Most drivers on the grid would perform similarly in the same car. He has made major errors in races this season resulting in crashes. This is a strange appointment by Ferrari - considering their history of hiring experienced race winners - and was made primarily to counter the Verstappen effect. In terms of overall ability he's not in the same league as the Dutchman.

I'm sure someone like Grosjean would have been a much better fit though right? Forgive me if I disregard the above as nonsense.

mickdw · 14-11-2018 11:55pm

chicorytip wrote: »

Sauber are exactly where they should be - seventh or eighth. Leclerc does not appear to be that exceptionally talented. Most drivers on the grid would perform similarly in the same car. He has made major errors in races this season resulting in crashes. This is a strange appointment by Ferrari - considering their history of hiring experienced race winners - and was made primarily to counter the Verstappen effect. In terms of overall ability he's not in the same league as the Dutchman.

I've been watching f1 for 24 years and he looks special to me.
I guess time will tell how well he does. I'm sure both himself and max are good enough to win many titles should they be in the right place at the right time.

Frank Bullitt · 15-11-2018 12:12am

That lap during Qualy in Brazil alone was special.

Adamocovic · 15-11-2018 12:45am

I'm a huge fan of Leclerc. Was lucky enough to watch him racing live in F2 and blew me away.

While Hamilton and Vettel are two world class drivers I never took a shine to them. I can't wait for Leclerc at Ferrari though.

He seems like a humble guy and his family and friends are racing mad. Grew up friends with the Bianci's (two families have a lot of history) who I think actually helped fund money for him when he struggled financially when getting into racing.

Definitely one of the most promising drivers to come through in a long while and I really hope it clicks for him.

skipper_G · 15-11-2018 12:53am

Adamocovic wrote: »

I'm a huge fan of Leclerc. Was lucky enough to watch him racing live in F2 and blew me away.

While Hamilton and Vettel are two world class drivers I never took a shine to them. I can't wait for Leclerc at Ferrari though.

He seems like a humble guy and his family and friends are racing mad. Grew up friends with the Bianci's (two families have a lot of history) who I think actually helped fund money for him when he struggled financially when getting into racing.

Definitely one of the most promising drivers to come through in a long while and I really hope it clicks for him.

I'm a huge fan, I think he's got bags of potential. His drive in the sprint race in Bahrain in F2 last season is one of the best drives I've ever seen.

vectra · 15-11-2018 2:39am

Gintonious wrote: »

When did Alonso not respect Raikkonen? Must have missed that one.

When did Alonso respect any team mate?

pjohnson · 15-11-2018 9:01am

skipper_G wrote: »

I'm sure someone like Grosjean would have been a much better fit though right? Forgive me if I disregard the above as nonsense.

Around the time he said Grosjean should join Ferrari I think he also said Kimi would never again win a race because he was too old & slow now :pac:

Going by calls like that Leclerc could actually be 2019 WDC

Harika · 15-11-2018 9:16am

vectra wrote: »

When did Alonso respect any team mate?

He said and says a lot of nice things about Vandoore and Massa. e.g.

Adamocovic · 15-11-2018 10:24am

chicorytip wrote: »

Sauber are exactly where they should be - seventh or eighth. Leclerc does not appear to be that exceptionally talented. Most drivers on the grid would perform similarly in the same car. He has made major errors in races this season resulting in crashes. This is a strange appointment by Ferrari - considering their history of hiring experienced race winners - and was made primarily to counter the Verstappen effect. In terms of overall ability he's not in the same league as the Dutchman.

I don't agree, would you at least say he has exceptional potential?

Saying most drivers again is a "what if" situation which is hard to use for either side of the argument. What we do know is that in his first year he easily outperformed Ericsson, a teammate with nearly 100 races under his belt. Again you can argue Ericsson's ability.

Leclerc has easily been one of the most promising drivers in the GP2 in a long while. He dominated and showed brilliant ability. I could mention that he easily outperformed the likes of Hamilton and Rosberg when they were in GP2 but then again Palmer did too.

Yes as a new driver in F1 you will make mistakes, I don't think he made nearly as many as you seem to be implying. A lot of incidents he was involved in weren't his fault either. Just listening to how former drivers and commentators get excited and rave about him should be more truth to his ability and potential.

As for the Verstappen comparison, Verstappen has 5 seasons under his belt. I think it's early into Leclerc's career to make the comparison but next year in the Ferrari we can begin that. I don't believe they are similar in style though. It's early days of course, and I think Verstappen/Leclerc will be the next big rivalry in the sport, but I do believe that Leclerc is a cooler customer behind the wheel while Verstappen poses more of a threat at attacking. I think there will be some juicy battles between the two.

And for the Ferrari aspect of it, once you get over the initial shock it's not that big of head-scracther, I don't see it strange at all and don't believe it's the "Verstappen effect". Leclerc has been tipped as the next big driver for Ferrari, a former member of their academy, his first year on the grid he showed real signs of his ability so why sit around and wait. They now have a multiple time world champion in his 30s coupled with a 21 year old with a lot of promise. Obviously it's great experience for Leclerc. McLaren did similarly with Hamilton and Red Bull with Vettel and things worked out nicely.

I'm bias of course, I love Leclerc and can't wait to see him with Ferrari, but if Leclerc doesn't look special to you which of the young new drivers do? Other than Verstappen who as I've said we've been watching in F1 for years.

H3llR4iser · 15-11-2018 1:19pm

Also, whomever says it's an "unconventional" or "unprecedented" move from Ferrari to contract Leclerc, either is following F1 for a very short time or knows very little about the Italian team.

Drivers Ferrari hired when they were "perfect nobodies" or "promising young talents" since the 1970s:

- Clay Regazzoni - debuted in F1 with Ferrari
- Niki Lauda - 28 races entered, 1 points finish (a 5th place)
- Gilles Villeneuve - 1 entered
- Jean Alesi - 1 season with Tyrrell in 1990, odd races in 1989
- Felipe Massa - 1 season with Sauber

If we want to include drivers that weren't exactly "new entries" but still got on a Ferrari F1 car before they won a single race, we have:
- Patrick Tambay
- Stefan Johansson (although an "emergency appointment" after sacking Arnoux)
- Ivan Capelli
- Eddie Irvine
- Rubens Barrichello

[EDIT- no, Tambay didn't suffer a career ending accident] Interestingly enough, despite the objectively difficult environment, all of these guys except for Ivan Capelli (and maybe Johansson) went on to have brilliant careers and to be amongst the most influential and representative drivers of their own times, even those who enjoyed alternate fortunes like Jean Alesi or Eddie Irvine.

As a matter of fact, for decades Ferrari's policy has been that of "making the drivers", rather than hiring who was at the top already; When Prost joined them in 1990, it was sensational news because they hired a World Champion in a permanent role (Andretti entered 2 races for them in 1982) for the first time in decades - IIRC, the only time they got a driver who had already won a WDC before was with Fangio in the 1950s.

So no, the Leclerc move ain't that weird for Ferrari, and chances are he's going to thrive. Don't forget that, without accidents, we'd have had Kubica and/or Bianchi in a red suit for some time, now.

Harika · 15-11-2018 3:07pm

Thread seems to break

Jordan 199 · 15-11-2018 3:18pm

Do any of ye play GT Sport?

I did an endurance race in GT Sport yesterday. I stink at managing tires and gas-o-line.

Infoanon · 15-11-2018 3:25pm

[quote=H3llR4iser;108633171

Excluding Tambay for obvious reasons (career ending accident),.[/quote]

Patrick Tambay retired in 86 when the Haas Lol team closed - the career ending accident was Didier Pironi

mickdw · 15-11-2018 4:10pm

Any update on Kubica

H3llR4iser · 15-11-2018 4:15pm

Infoanon wrote: »

Patrick Tambay retired in 86 when the Haas Lol team closed - the career ending accident was Didier Pironi

you are entirely correct! Got confused between the two (not the first time, for some reason I keep mixing these two together!)

vectra · 15-11-2018 4:56pm

Harika wrote: »

He said and says a lot of nice things about Vandoore and Massa. e.g.

Like what?
and when did he say these "nice things"

Harika · 15-11-2018 5:01pm

vectra wrote: »

Like what?
and when did he say these "nice things"

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/137566/alonso-vandoorne-closer-than-other-teammates

https://www.gpfans.com/en/articles/3017/alonso-vandoorne-one-of-f1-s-best-talents/

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motorsport/formulaone/9305081/Fernando-Alonso-backs-team-mate-Felipe-Massa-to-come-good-for-Ferrari.html

and so on

Inviere · 15-11-2018 5:01pm

vectra wrote: »

Like what?
and when did he say these "nice things"

On Massa

"I have a lot of respect for Felipe. From the outside it is difficult to appreciate what a challenging time he has given me for the past three years." - Source

On Stofel

"If you see previous teammates, they were a lot further [behind] than Stoffel," Alonso said. “In 2014 it was six or seven tenths to Kimi every race. It’s less than that now." - Source

Both fairly complimentary statements to make, no? Dude, do you even Google? :P

vectra · 15-11-2018 5:14pm

Harika wrote: »

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/137566/alonso-vandoorne-closer-than-other-teammates

https://www.gpfans.com/en/articles/3017/alonso-vandoorne-one-of-f1-s-best-talents/

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motorsport/formulaone/9305081/Fernando-Alonso-backs-team-mate-Felipe-Massa-to-come-good-for-Ferrari.html

and so on

Inviere wrote: »

On Massa

"I have a lot of respect for Felipe. From the outside it is difficult to appreciate what a challenging time he has given me for the past three years." - Source

On Stofel

"If you see previous teammates, they were a lot further [behind] than Stoffel," Alonso said. “In 2014 it was six or seven tenths to Kimi every race. It’s less than that now." - Source

Both fairly complimentary statements to make, no? Dude, do you even Google? :P

Are you two having a laugh :pac::pac:

Isn't it so convenient for Alonso to say that Vandoorne is the closest to him than any other teammate he had when they are driving what is close to the slowest car on the track?
Would be a bad job if Vandoorne was driving it any slower.
Then again,
Wasn't Lewis much much closer to him in 2007 ?
Can't get much closer than that.
But oh.
Hold on.
Lewis embarrassed him that year being the Rookie up against the Mighty Alonso

As for Massa?

that comment was in 2012.
Just goes to show how bad his judgement really was.
Kimi was third that year in a much lesser able car than Massa had.

Inviere · 15-11-2018 6:38pm

vectra wrote: »

Are you two having a laugh :pac::pac:

You asked for evidence of Alonso saying something nice about Massa and Vandoorne. It was presented to you

Pick it apart all you like, doesn't change the fact that he said such though.

Frank Bullitt · 15-11-2018 6:41pm

vectra wrote: »

When did Alonso respect any team mate?

So you can't answer my question then. Thought so.

Frank Bullitt · 15-11-2018 6:46pm

vectra wrote: »

Are you two having a laugh :pac::pac:

Isn't it so convenient for Alonso to say that Vandoorne is the closest to him than any other teammate he had when they are driving what is close to the slowest car on the track?
Would be a bad job if Vandoorne was driving it any slower.
Then again,
Wasn't Lewis much much closer to him in 2007 ?
Can't get much closer than that.
But oh.
Hold on.
Lewis embarrassed him that year being the Rookie up against the Mighty Alonso

As for Massa?

that comment was in 2012.
Just goes to show how bad his judgement really was.
Kimi was third that year in a much lesser able car than Massa had.

Ugh, this is your classic kind of response. Lace it with further questions to try and paint a different picture. You of course have to go back to 2007, you can't reference more recent seasons because it doesn't fit the narrative that you like to paint of Alonso.

And even at that, here is something he said of Lewis this year, but you were never going to mention that one, were you?

It's difficult to make a top 5 of all-time greats," Alonso said, "but probably Michael [Schumacher], [Juan Manuel] Fangio, Senna, [Alain] Prost and Lewis -- that would probably be the top five.

"That's what comes to my mind but it's difficult to compare different times and different ways to win those championships. Lewis winning five now and equalling Fangio is a great achievement.

"If one had to do that in our generation I'm happy it's Lewis, because he showed the talent and he showed the commitment. When the car was dominating and delivering he won the championships and when it was not good enough he still put some performances to show his talent. That's difficult to see in our days.

vectra · 15-11-2018 9:06pm

Gintonious wrote: »

So you can't answer my question then. Thought so.

The question being
Do I ever google?
yes.

Gintonious wrote: »

Ugh, this is your classic kind of response. Lace it with further questions to try and paint a different picture. You of course have to go back to 2007, you can't reference more recent seasons because it doesn't fit the narrative that you like to paint of Alonso.

And even at that, here is something he said of Lewis this year, but you were never going to mention that one, were you?

well
2007
2012
All old news, But ironically mine seems to be the wrong one.

Sure what else could he say about Lewis.
That he was useless?

Frank Bullitt · 15-11-2018 10:11pm

vectra wrote: »

The question being
Do I ever google?
yes.

The question was where did Alonso never show respect to his teammates, you can use google if that will help you.

well
2007
2012
All old news, But ironically mine seems to be the wrong one.

Sure what else could he say about Lewis.
That he was useless?

2012, what disrespect did he show to his teammate then? Never said your "news" was wrong, but you clearly overlook what he has said in recent events more than anything, that's because you don't like what he has to say due to it not fitting your villain narrative and impression of Alonso.

And again, another question to avoid directly address the statement he made about Lewis. He gave him praise (quite high praise) but you don't acknowledge it and then ask ANOTHER question to try and sway the conversation.

chicorytip · 15-11-2018 11:49pm

Burkie1203 wrote:

Ferrari need someone who differs from Kimi in every way on track.

skipper_G wrote:

I'm sure someone like Grosjean would have been a much better fit though right? Forgive me if I disregard the above as nonsense.

pjohnson wrote:

Around the time he said Grosjean should join Ferrari I think he also said Kimi would never again win a race because he was too old & slow now

pjohnson wrote:

Going by calls like that Leclerc could actually be 2019 WDC

Leclerc has been impressive in the junior categories as have many others who have ultimately failed to make the grade in F1. His performances this season have been, well, just average really. He and Sauber are just about where you would expect them to be. If Ferrari were to appoint a second driver from the current grid purely based on the criteria of achievement and previous experience Grosjean, excepting Hamilton, Verstappen and Alonso, would be a good shout. He has the driving skills and real pace and delivers when it counts. It will be interesting to see if Norris, Russell or Leclerc progress to become multiple race winners or, indeed, even world champion.

vectra · 16-11-2018 2:44am

Gintonious wrote: »

The question was where did Alonso never show respect to his teammates, you can use google if that will help you.

I seriously think you are just bulling for an argument which you are not going to get from me.
But to answer your silly question.
First thing that springs to mind was what he did to Hamilton in Hungary 2007.
https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/10959867/fernando-alonso-lewis-hamilton-and-the-hungarian-gp-pit-stop-that-ended-a-mclaren-relationship

Also,
Don't forget "Crashgate"
Please do not tell me Alonso did not know what was going on back then.
I would consider that absolute disrespect for two of his teammates.
Whatever way you want to view it.
I really don't care.

mickdw · 16-11-2018 11:44am

vectra wrote: »

I seriously think you are just bulling for an argument which you are not going to get from me.
But to answer your silly question.
First thing that springs to mind was what he did to Hamilton in Hungary 2007.
https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/10959867/fernando-alonso-lewis-hamilton-and-the-hungarian-gp-pit-stop-that-ended-a-mclaren-relationship

Also,
Don't forget "Crashgate"
Please do not tell me Alonso did not know what was going on back then.
I would consider that absolute disrespect for two of his teammates.
Whatever way you want to view it.
I really don't care.

2 good points there to be fair.

quokula · 16-11-2018 1:03pm

vectra wrote: »

I seriously think you are just bulling for an argument which you are not going to get from me.
But to answer your silly question.
First thing that springs to mind was what he did to Hamilton in Hungary 2007.
https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/10959867/fernando-alonso-lewis-hamilton-and-the-hungarian-gp-pit-stop-that-ended-a-mclaren-relationship

Also,
Don't forget "Crashgate"
Please do not tell me Alonso did not know what was going on back then.
I would consider that absolute disrespect for two of his teammates.
Whatever way you want to view it.
I really don't care.

There has never been a shred of evidence that Alonso knew a thing about Pat Symonds' crashgate plan, I don't think anyone seriously believes he knew about it, he expressed a lot of genuine surprise post race and even commented on the fact it was thanks to Piquet's crash.

And the Hungarian GP in 2007 was Alonso's reaction to the conspiracy against him at McLaren (Ron Dennis later let slip on the record that the team was against Alonso) due to his role in whistleblowing the corruption and cheating going on at the team.

ZiabR · 16-11-2018 1:46pm

Anyone heading over to Abu Dhabi for the final race of the season and Alonso's last?

I know there will always be a black flag against him from the past but I still think he is one of the best drivers we have ever seen.

Formula 1 2018: General Discussion Thread

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