Should I increase the rent? What would you do in this case?

Mr_Red · 28-11-2014 5:15pm

Wow what a car crash of a thread

I an thinking the all the advice from tenants and landlords here was excellent and everyone was on your side but then........

drumswan · 28-11-2014 5:18pm

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

So what? Notice is really notice.

This is farcical. Taking this to the extreme logical conclusion it would be OK for the landlord to turn up with a baseball bat demanding the tenant be out sooner than her legal rights allow for and as long as the tenant "agrees" it would be ok.

The OP has made a right bollix of this. Threatening and blackmailing a tenant out before her legally allowed notice period is textbook illegal eviction.

Help!!!! · 28-11-2014 5:33pm

drumswan wrote: »

This is farcical. Taking this to the extreme logical conclusion it would be OK for the landlord to turn up with a baseball bat demanding the tenant be out sooner than her legal rights allow for and as long as the tenant "agrees" it would be ok.

The OP has made a right bollix of this. Threatening and blackmailing a tenant out before her legally allowed notice period is textbook illegal eviction.

The tenant is illegally getting rent allowance for her BF ( otherwise she wouldn't be so quick to hand in her notice), the OP is within her rights to report any illegal activity on her property. Would you not do the same?

El_Duderino 09 · 28-11-2014 6:33pm

Ah here, a bit of perspective please.

The OP told her she might be spending Xmas in jail IF she had been involved in some kind of crime relating to rent allowance for her BF. If she was innocent she would surely have sang a song about PRTB rather than begging him not to report them.

She has broken the Tenancy agreement and, if he is in fact in receipt of rent allowance, it is unlikely that it could be happening legally without the LL being involved.

So the OP decided he wanted them out ASAP and made that happen. He might or might not have been totally by the book and it is fair to question that. However I don't support the tenant flouting the law and bashing the OP over the head with the same law and expecting him to behave like an alter boy.

He wanted them out and they have offered their notice. The OP has decided not to investigate whether there was any funny business with rent allowance so everyone is doing okay out of the solution.

The OP didn't initiate any of this but it escalated and he dealt with it so both parties can move on. OP gets new tenants, current tenants won't be investigated for any naughty business whether they engaged in it or not.

It's win - win. Fair play OP

kandoola · 28-11-2014 7:22pm

Perspective is definitely required.
Please put down the pitchforks people.

The facts.

I listed issues in the OP which annoyed me.
All have been dealt with. They still annoyed me though. Thats why i posted them.

A good tenant has had a good deal for years and is now taking the p1ss.

Rent is being increased to the market rate in the area. Written notice delivered.

Heated phone conversations and then revelations about rent allowance have arisen with someone who is definitely living there (loads of proof of that. (Texts, emails etc from him for ages easily show he is living there) and was not originally a tenant or approved. Although i really dont care who she has living there with her if she wants to pay the rent and it doesnt cause me trouble.

I am going to report them and told them this because i did not give my permission to live in my apartment with rent allowance.

She has the following options.

She can pay the new rent from 1st of Jan if she wants and stay. I have given her the option of giving me 28 days notice if she doesnt like the new terms or she can give her required notice period which is much longer. But she pays the new rent amount form the date specified in the notice of rent increase. I wont be giving her notice.

She can go to the PRTB about the rent if she likes, but im 100% its a fair rent so she will end up paying it anyway.

If she avails of my offer that i will accept a shorter notice to quit then she doesnt end up paying higher rent. We are all happy.

And after thinking about it overnight, i was going to just drop the rent allowance thing if she moved out, but I have now decided it might be my duty as a tax payer to report suspected fraud to both the Gardai and the CWO. I dont know yet. Maybe when i cool down i wont bother. Its been my experience before that these kind things are treated as an annoyance when reported to various parties, rather than treated as a crime.

And i'm not in the least inclined to 'Talk to and Give these people a break'. Im sick of hearing their voices and getting texts and emails from them if truth be told.

I think im being completely reasonable.

Since the pitchforks are out I'll just leave this thread now and will come back when its all done and dusted with an update of what happened if any reasonable people want to know.

murphaph · 28-11-2014 7:27pm

Hope it works out for you.

mikemac1 · 28-11-2014 8:25pm

kandoola wrote: »

I am going to report them and told them this

You will report them

kandoola wrote: »

And after thinking about it overnight, i was going to just drop the rent allowance thing if she moved out,

Now you won't

kandoola wrote: »

but I have now decided it might be my duty as a tax payer to report suspected fraud to both the Gardai and the CWO.

Now you will report them

kandoola wrote: »

I dont know yet.

You're not sure

kandoola wrote: »

Maybe when i cool down i wont bother.

Now you won't

kandoola wrote: »

I have a mate who is a professional landlord but i feel his advice is more hard line than i need, so looking for some options here.

Pay your mate to handle your affairs is my advice, renting a property is a business and this situation could have been handled last year

kandoola · 28-11-2014 8:43pm

mikemac1 wrote: »

You will report them

Now you won't

Now you will report them

You're not sure

Now you won't

Pay your mate to handle your affairs is my advice, renting a property is a business and this situation could have been handled last year

Thats a very childish post right there tbh.
Why bother.

dixiefly · 28-11-2014 8:57pm

mikemac1 wrote: »

You will report them

Now you won't

Now you will report them

You're not sure

Now you won't

Pay your mate to handle your affairs is my advice, renting a property is a business and this situation could have been handled last year

I think that this is a bit ott.

The OP came on here looking for advice as an inexperienced LL so the whole premise of the thread is that the OP is unsure as to what to do so all you did was look for evidence to confirm what the OP has said at the outset.

The OP is going to get an agency to manage the letting going forward but cannot be criticised for not doing so in the past as , up to now, there havent been any issues.

If it was me I would take the advice of the poster that said to increment the rent in two stages with half the increase now and a pre-warning for the additional increase in 12 months. It would soften the blow and also confirm who is boss without having to get new tenants (assuming they accept) and new tenants possible coming with their own issues.

Graces7 · 29-11-2014 9:00am

And all this because they made a few requests of the landlord that he deemed inappropriate as heaven forbid he might have to service his property..... beggars belief

yankinlk · 29-11-2014 9:15am

Graces7 wrote: »

And all this because they made a few requests of the landlord that he deemed inappropriate as heaven forbid he might have to service his property..... beggars belief

sorry, but no way. at what point did landlords become hoteliers? when did tenants drop all personal responsibilities? change a lightbulb? buy me a mat to wipe my feet? toilet paper is next....

i dont agree with everything the OP did on thread, but i understand his frustration with a tenant that changed behaviour after meeting a new (non paying) boyfriend and started making demands. especially at a time when rental market turned, tenant should have known they were getting a great deal and been thankful, not demanding.

landlords are expected to provide the housing the governments have FAILED to provide, and to do it out of the goodness of their heart, not for profit.

landlords are expected to step in and provide accomodation to the part of society that feels entitled, thru past government initiatives that basically make them helpless children, and fail to learn to budget or even to establish good credit.

landlords are expected to be the last hope of the unhousable, the keepers of the ASBO's and to step in and deliver stern warnings, and demand tenants behave the way the rest of society wants them to behave.

why would anyone want to become a landlord? taxed tp the hilt, withered by tenant, neighbour, vilified by the entitled classes.

jank · 29-11-2014 9:53am

cerastes wrote: »

No its not, you're talking out your back passage, that kind of advice will get the OP hung out to dry.
Look up the PRTB website OP, At this point it'll be 112 days .

I stand corrected. Never knew it was that long!

Anyway, I would report them regarding the rent allowance. They/he are effectively defrauding the state and using your property to do so. For all you know they could be using your name and forging your signature. That would piss me off enough to report them. What they are doing is illegal.

cerastes · 29-11-2014 10:30am

jank wrote: »

I stand corrected. Never knew it was that long!

Anyway, I would report them regarding the rent allowance. They/he are effectively defrauding the state and using your property to do so. For all you know they could be using your name and forging your signature. That would piss me off enough to report them. What they are doing is illegal.

A landlord could get in serious trouble for not giving the required notice, PRTB may come down hard on that, but then not equally on a tenant that is creating problems.

As for the RA, well I understand where you are coming from, but as the RA (SW now) dont seem to care/want to know, its not my problem, unless Im not getting the money, I just dont see what the benefit of reporting them is as it might get the rent cut off.

Graces7 wrote: »

And all this because they made a few requests of the landlord that he deemed inappropriate as heaven forbid he might have to service his property..... beggars belief

In fairness, I think this was about more than just a few requests to fix stuff, its about a tenant that had a good deal, breached the lease and didnt have the cop on to discern between what was really the landlords job and being tedious.
It beggars belief that people think a landlord should change light bulbs, save up the contacts with them for important stuff, pissing them off is just as likely to have them up a favourable rent to get rid of a tenant. At 300 on the good side of rent, Id have kept my gob shut and the only thing Id be concerned about is that a boiler service is done.

keane2097 · 29-11-2014 10:52am

Struggling to pick out any of the OP's actions that are suggestive of someone who wanted a quieter life rather than more rent.

Assuming I missed the old "tell the tenant I want a quiet life" gambit somewhere before the 50% rent increase, illegal eviction notice and threats of letters to the minister?

ted1 · 29-11-2014 10:58am

Graces7 wrote: »

And all this because they made a few requests of the landlord that he deemed inappropriate as heaven forbid he might have to service his property..... beggars belief

And where paying below market rate, and breached the lease by moving in an unapproved tenant. And said tenant was abusive to land lord

housetypeb · 29-11-2014 11:12am

Graces7 wrote: »

And all this because they made a few requests of the landlord that he deemed inappropriate as heaven forbid he might have to service his property..... beggars belief

Beggars belief that the difference between a request and a demand would need to be explained. Have a careful read of the first post again.
quote "And threatening to go to the PRTB if I dont sort them all out with two weeks etc. (which i have)"quote

Graces7 · 29-11-2014 1:37pm

My opinion stands and grows.

timetogo · 29-11-2014 1:41pm

keane2097 wrote: »

Struggling to pick out any of the OP's actions that are suggestive of someone who wanted a quieter life rather than more rent.

Assuming I missed the old "tell the tenant I want a quiet life" gambit somewhere before the 50% rent increase, illegal eviction notice and threats of letters to the minister?

Did you read post one where he said he was happy to leave the rent alone until he started getting all of the hassle.

wandatowell · 29-11-2014 1:52pm

kandoola wrote: »

Limescale in showerhead - I put it in a basin of hot water and calgon for a few hours and wash it out. Fixed.
Microwave - i have exactly the same one so i swapped them. I cleaned the one from the apartment and it works perfectly in my house.
Mat - I just go to the local hardware shot and buy one for a tenner.
Doors sqeak - Oil them
Ring on cooker not working. Ive had hobs with only 3 rings working for years in the past. Use the other 3.
Stopper - €1 in the hardware shop.
Windows - Clean them. Ground floor
Hoover not working - Of course no the tube was full of paper and hair. A coat hanger to push them out did the trick.

If they dont move out sure im getting €4200 a year extra so that should ease the pain of the hassle of the trivial stuff.

Do you really think that "hassle" is worth €4200?

You could do all those jobs on a quiet afternoon in fairness.

If I was you, I would increase the rent regardless. More money out of them the better.

ted1 · 29-11-2014 1:56pm

wandatowell wrote: »

Do you really think that "hassle" is worth €4200?

You could do all those jobs on a quiet afternoon in fairness.

If I was you, I would increase the rent regardless. More money out of them the better.

In 5 years that's 21,000 ...

Or for someone earning 20 euro an hour that's over 5 weeks work. And tbh it's not that much hassle for the op

antoinolachtnai · 29-11-2014 3:08pm

drumswan wrote: »

This is farcical. Taking this to the extreme logical conclusion it would be OK for the landlord to turn up with a baseball bat demanding the tenant be out sooner than her legal rights allow for and as long as the tenant "agrees" it would be ok.

The OP has made a right bollix of this. Threatening and blackmailing a tenant out before her legally allowed notice period is textbook illegal eviction.

No. Illegal eviction is when someone is forcibly removed from a property without a court or PRTB order. Giving short notice (which is not what the OP did) is not the same as illegally evicting someone.

The_Morrigan · 29-11-2014 3:18pm

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

No. Illegal eviction is when someone is forcibly removed from a property without a court or PRTB order. Giving short notice (which is not what the OP did) is not the same as illegally evicting someone.

Illegal eviction is imposing terms outside the normal course of tenancy law to have the tenant leave - coercing a shorter term notice from a tenant under duress of being reported for an allegedly DSP fraud is not exactly playing within the rules, nor is it fair or equitable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxims_of_equity

antoinolachtnai · 29-11-2014 3:51pm

You feel the tenant has a claim in equity? They will have to go to the High Court to assert this surely?

An illegal eviction is described on the PRTB website. It is a narrow, specific thing and nothing like what this landlord is doing in the present case. The landlord has not in any way denied the tenant access to the dwelling or removed belongings.

http://www.prtb.ie/media-research/publications/illegal-eviction

An illegal eviction may occur where a landlord through force, intimidation or otherwise (such as cutting off utilities, changing the locks etc) denies a tenant from accessing a rented dwelling or removes a tenant’s belongings from the dwelling whether or not a valid of Notice of Termination had been served in respect of the tenancy. Section 58 of the Residential Tenancies Act 2004 provides that since 1st September 2004 a tenancy may not be terminated by the landlord by means of a notice of forfeiture, a re-entry or any other process or procedure not provided for under Part 5 of the Act.

Giving notice, valid or not, or accepting notice is not an illegal eviction.

The_Morrigan · 29-11-2014 4:11pm

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

You feel the tenant has a claim in equity? They will have to go to the High Court to assert this surely?

An illegal eviction is described on the PRTB website. It is a narrow, specific thing and nothing like what this landlord is doing in the present case. The landlord has not in any way denied the tenant access to the dwelling or removed belongings.

http://www.prtb.ie/media-research/publications/illegal-eviction

Giving notice, valid or not, or accepting notice is not an illegal eviction.

The maxims are a good set of principles by which to live your life; they represent fair and just dealings, not just how you gain an equitable interest in something. Therefore if you wish to rely on a legal concept, then you shouldn't have a cavalier attitude to it, if you wish to take the moral high ground, then you shouldn't use dirty tactics in which to achieve your goal.

As for your prtb link - very first line says that it's a guideline only and that all cases will be dealt with on their own merits.

The Landlord should have given the 28 days written notice, and allowed the tenant to either lodge a complaint with the PRTB or to give their proper notice. Alternatively the landlord could have waited for 6 months and given the tenant notice to vacate within the first six months of the next 4 year cycle of the tenancy.

They knew that the bf had moved in, they can't just not throw their toys out of the pram because it no longer suits them and claim a breach of the lease - his acceptance of rent and his dealings with the bf means he allowed that to carry on. If he was so concerned with the breach of the lease then he should have dealt with it at the time, not now when it has gotten to a situation that is messy and likely that the landlord will end up in the PRTB.
Threatening to report them if they don't get out asap is also not exactly a nice thing to do, neither is joking about them living in a car.

kandoola · 29-11-2014 4:44pm

Well I just logged in to see there were a lot of posts on my thread and that it has been closed and no reason given. I didnt see anything in it deserving of closing it, but I thought people who are interested might like an update. Ive seen far worse threads and dont feel in the least put out by people having a heated discussion with me, so no need to close it on my account at all.

boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057331561&page=9

Obviously I have split opinion in there.
So just posting this update if anyone is interested.
I will continue posting updates as it might help those in a similar situation (on both sides of the fence).

There is a lot of exaggeration going on in that thread.

The tenants are now moving out on 15th Dec. I have told them I am happy for them to move out on that date. They are moving to the girls brothers house they said.

The tenants were paying 33% below the market rate for years.
I was happy with this until they became more effort than the discount was worth.
I increased the rent by 50% to the market rate. If they move out the next tenant will be paying the market rate anyway.

The tenants are moving out because I offered them a shorter notice period that would allow them to move out before the rent increases. Me reporting them breaking the law is neither here nor there. I would think that would be my duty as a tax payer and a citizen, wouldnt you? (The boyfriend was also claiming rent allowance for the apartment without my knowledge. I dont know if thats a crime but will ask the relevant authorities should i report it)

I was accused of evicting them under duress.
How I could be convicted of evicting someone by telling them that I was going to report their crime I dont know. But i'll let you know what the Gardai say. I'll drop in to them in the next few days on my way to work to ask them if its a crime, but wont report it yet.

And I didnt give them notice of eviction. I gave them notice of a rent increase effective from 1 Jan 2015. I offered, if they wanted, that i would accept a shorter notice period, should they want to move out before the increase kicked in. They are totally entitled to stay at the higher rent should they wish. I have given no notice to quit.

And just to clarify, the things i listed in the OP were just a few examples of the hassle they have suddenly (as in from no hassle at all and then suddenly to texts, email, phone calls of threats every single day about trivial things).

Anyway I have engaged an agent now and handed over the management of the property to them. They will be taking over in Jan. its 8% of the rent and they deal with everything, form getting new tenants, should they move out , to fielding calls and queries from the tenants and collecting the rent and passing it on to me. It should only cost me about 4% after tax.. I told them i only want to hear if any expenses are required above €100. If thats the case the agent rings me and runs it by me. So Im happy with that.

I'll still drop in and update with the situation if anyone is interested. But as far as im concerned I havent put a foot wrong. If I have and the PRTB decide I have i'll come back and post that too. It seems to be moving fast and god knows what could happen by the 15th but i'll keep you posted.

Please keep this thread civil so it doesnt get closed because I think it really could be valuable to others to tease this out in a civil manner.

The_Morrigan · 29-11-2014 5:07pm

The thread was closed because it was going around in circles and you had already stated you were leaving the thread.
I do not want you to update the forum on anything in relation to this tenant as you keep giving identifying details and that is wholly unfair to them.

Should I increase the rent? What would you do in this case?

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