Covid payments for Landlords

Pkiernan · 07-04-2020 8:38pm #1

Since the Government is rightly assisting those who have lost their income, both PAYE and self employed, due to Covid restrictions, can landlords no longer in receipt of rent also claim for assistance?

Slydice · 07-04-2020 9:55pm

It probably depends on the situation you find yourself in now.

There's a long citizensinformation page about the covid situation here:
https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/health/covid19_overview.html

A lot of 'if you are this' or 'if you are that'. Maybe the page can help.

Edgware · 08-04-2020 12:03pm

Pkiernan wrote: »

Since the Government is rightly assisting those who have lost their income, both PAYE and self employed, due to Covid restrictions, can landlords no longer in receipt of rent also claim for assistance?

Landlords are categorised as follows,
Pariahs
Necessary evil
Scroungers
Cruel Dickens type characters
Wealthy beyond allmeans because they own two properties
Therefore no tax payers money for them.

JimmyVik · 08-04-2020 1:30pm

Pkiernan wrote: »

Since the Government is rightly assisting those who have lost their income, both PAYE and self employed, due to Covid restrictions, can landlords no longer in receipt of rent also claim for assistance?

No. They are landlords. They must pay double tax on last years rent if they are having a hard time

Joke. But wouldnt surprise me tbh

handlemaster · 09-04-2020 8:51am

Pkiernan wrote: »

Since the Government is rightly assisting those who have lost their income, both PAYE and self employed, due to Covid restrictions, can landlords no longer in receipt of rent also claim for assistance?

No but no but. It depends on the argument , the day and the hour. Landlords are either Businesses , social workers , public housing suppliers , charities , keepers of the peace or generally multi millionaires. Based on the governments polling and public opinion your question is not an easy one to answer.

pwurple · 09-04-2020 9:19am

Pretty sure as they stopped all payments for dentists who closed, and most other self-employeed, then landlords won't be getting anything either.

09-04-2020 9:50am

pwurple wrote: »

Pretty sure as they stopped all payments for dentists who closed, and most other self-employeed, then landlords won't be getting anything either.

Dentists do not receive any payments from the Government apart from fee-per-item of service payments. This has not been stopped.

The Student · 09-04-2020 10:03am

handlemaster wrote: »

No but no but. It depends on the argument , the day and the hour. Landlords are either Businesses , social workers , public housing suppliers , charities , keepers of the peace or generally multi millionaires. Based on the governments polling and public opinion your question is not an easy one to answer.

Summed up perfectly.

Gumbo · 09-04-2020 11:24am

pwurple wrote: »

Pretty sure as they stopped all payments for dentists who closed, and most other self-employeed, then landlords won't be getting anything either.

Government are still paying HAP, and all other Rental Assistance payments.

Donald Trump · 09-04-2020 11:44am

Renting out property is a business. If you have a business you need to have sufficient contingency plans. If you don't or if your business receives an extremely large shock and goes under, then you have to move on. It's quite simple really.

There is no point patting yourself on the back during the good times and thinking you are a genius if ya can't cope when the shit hits the fan temporarily.

Thems the risks ya were taking on from the start! If you didn't realise it, well it's an important lesson for you now

Edgware · 09-04-2020 11:52am

Donald Trump wrote: »

Renting out property is a business. If you have a business you need to have sufficient contingency plans. If you don't or if your business receives an extremely large shock and goes under, then you have to move on. It's quite simple really.

There is no point patting yourself on the back during the good times and thinking you are a genius if ya can't cope when the shit hits the fan temporarily.

Thems the risks ya were taking on from the start! If you didn't realise it, well it's an important lesson for you now

Exactly. Too many people, landlords and tenants, dont realise that. Some tenants don't accept it as a service that is being provided and think thay can ignore the contract, not pay rent etc. Some landlords think similar that they can ignore contracts, ignore the tenancy regulations etc.

It is a business and you take the risks. The tenant is not your friend.

09-04-2020 11:54am

Donald Trump wrote: »

Renting out property is a business. If you have a business you need to have sufficient contingency plans. If you don't or if your business receives an extremely large shock and goes under, then you have to move on. It's quite simple really.

There is no point patting yourself on the back during the good times and thinking you are a genius if ya can't cope when the shit hits the fan temporarily.

Thems the risks ya were taking on from the start! If you didn't realise it, well it's an important lesson for you now

Load of Nonsense. If that was the case the government wouldn't be giving €350 to people to keep them ticking over and subsidising staff wages.

Donald Trump · 09-04-2020 12:00pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Load of Nonsense. If that was the case the government wouldn't be giving €350 to people to keep them ticking over and subsidising staff wages.

Do you understand the difference between an individual being given social welfare benefits and a business?

No sense rather than nonsense methinks!

If you are a landlord and have staff working for you (perhaps you have 100 properties and you have an administrator in the office etc.) and have to let them go because of the corona, you can of course avail of any subsidies the same as any other business.
But if you have no employees then you obviously can't get an employee subsidy. I'd have though that that was obvious? no?

Lux23 · 09-04-2020 12:21pm

A landlord isn't really a business though, if they had a business acumen, they wouldn't invest in property to pay them a living and expect it to never change.

beauf · 09-04-2020 1:52pm

Lux23 wrote: »

A landlord isn't really a business though, if they had a business acumen, they wouldn't invest in property to pay them a living and expect it to never change.

I suggest you take that up with the "professional landlords".

IndieRoar111 · 09-04-2020 2:03pm

Hypothetical question here.

If tenants don't pay rent during the next 3 months(duration of the deemed crisis) and then leave the property, can landlords do anything about it? The rules for eviction during this crisis seem very unfair towards the LL and could leave them open to blows.

runawaybishop · 09-04-2020 2:08pm

Donald Trump wrote: »

Renting out property is a business. If you have a business you need to have sufficient contingency plans. If you don't or if your business receives an extremely large shock and goes under, then you have to move on. It's quite simple really.

There is no point patting yourself on the back during the good times and thinking you are a genius if ya can't cope when the shit hits the fan temporarily.

Thems the risks ya were taking on from the start! If you didn't realise it, well it's an important lesson for you now

Right, so when times are good and the market can afford it you raise the rent to an appropriate level, so in bad times you have the cash to cover it!

Unless of course the government cap rent rises, then you just get out of the market completely and let the clown car that is government housing policy look after providing homes for people. What could go wrong.

handlemaster · 09-04-2020 2:14pm

Donald Trump wrote: »

Renting out property is a business. If you have a business you need to have sufficient contingency plans. If you don't or if your business receives an extremely large shock and goes under, then you have to move on. It's quite simple really.

There is no point patting yourself on the back during the good times and thinking you are a genius if ya can't cope when the shit hits the fan temporarily.

Thems the risks ya were taking on from the start! If you didn't realise it, well it's an important lesson for you now

Well said. That is if the goal posts dont keep moving with the next Joe Duffy show as they seem to have done over the last number of years. Also generous landlords that were caught out by the rent freezing all the while costs were rising .. so it's not all the simple as you say.

handlemaster · 09-04-2020 2:16pm

IndieRoar111 wrote: »

Hypothetical question here.

If tenants don't pay rent during the next 3 months(duration of the deemed crisis) and then leave the property, can landlords do anything about it? The rules for eviction during this crisis seem very unfair towards the LL and could leave them open to blows.

Let's not pretend the law is favourable towards the landlord virus or no virus..

09-04-2020 2:25pm

Donald Trump wrote: »

Do you understand the difference between an individual being given social welfare benefits and a business?

No sense rather than nonsense methinks!

If you are a landlord and have staff working for you (perhaps you have 100 properties and you have an administrator in the office etc.) and have to let them go because of the corona, you can of course avail of any subsidies the same as any other business.
But if you have no employees then you obviously can't get an employee subsidy. I'd have though that that was obvious? no?

But if a landlord is a sole trader and has his rent coming in as his income, then surely he's in the same boat as me - a sole trader (photographer) whose income has frozen, and is entitled to the covid payment.

Not that eligibility matters. Your original point: that every business should be well able to weather a completely sudden, country-wide shutdown that could last months on end, is laughable.

awec · 09-04-2020 2:36pm

Deleted User wrote: »

But if a landlord is a sole trader and has his rent coming in as his income, then surely he's in the same boat as me - a sole trader (photographer) whose income has frozen, and is entitled to the covid payment.

Not that eligibility matters. Your original point: that every business should be well able to weather a completely sudden, country-wide shutdown that could last months on end, is laughable.

Owning property is not like having a trade. It's an investment, not a profession.

09-04-2020 2:53pm

awec wrote: »

Owning property is not like having a trade. It's an investment, not a profession.

I would argue It's an investment if you're working away at something different and have a property in the background. It's a profession if you're relying on the income and your time is taken up servicing your properties and tenants.

EDIT: My point being that in the first example, your income isn't based on the property itself, so you wouldnt be looking for a Covid payment for it. In the second example, you would be looking for the Covid payment.

Donald Trump · 09-04-2020 3:03pm

Deleted User wrote: »

But if a landlord is a sole trader and has his rent coming in as his income, then surely he's in the same boat as me - a sole trader (photographer) whose income has frozen, and is entitled to the covid payment.

Ah sure look. If I lobbed 100k into bank shares earlier in the year and now they are not paying a dividend, should the government not just pay me what I think I should be getting instead? I was going to use those dividends to go off on me holidays in August and now I don't have that income so the government should give it to me. Is that not your "logic"?

How about the 50k I put into penny stocks that went to zero. They should refund that to me too, right?

Deleted User wrote: »

Not that eligibility matters. Your original point: that every business should be well able to weather a completely sudden, country-wide shutdown that could last months on end, is laughable.

You might think it's laughable because you possibly didn't read what I wrote.
Go back and read it again. It's not long

Any person who knows anything about the Irish property market and renting knows that it is quite possible that at any given point in time that ya might find zero cashflow coming from your property. If someone is in that game and depending hand-to-mouth on the rental money coming in, then I'd advise them to get out of it quick. Because they shouldn't be in a business where they can't understand basic risks. That's can't understand them, never mind attempt to manage them.

Gumbo · 09-04-2020 3:07pm

Donald Trump wrote: »

Ah sure look. If I lobbed 100k into bank shares earlier in the year and now they are not paying a dividend, should the government not just pay me what I think I should be getting instead? I was going to use those dividends to go off on me holidays in August and now I don't have that income so the government should give it to me. Is that not your "logic"?

How about the 50k I put into penny stocks that went to zero. They should refund that to me too, right?

You might think it's laughable because you possibly didn't read what I wrote.
Go back and read it again. It's not long

Any person who knows anything about the Irish property market and renting knows that it is quite possible that at any given point in time that ya might find zero cashflow coming from your property. If someone is in that game and depending hand-to-mouth on the rental money coming in, then I'd advise them to get out of it quick. Because they shouldn't be in a business where they can't understand basic risks. That's can't understand them, never mind attempt to manage them.

Using your logic then, the tenant should have savings to weather this storm.
Good point.

09-04-2020 3:08pm

Donald Trump wrote: »

Ah sure look. If I lobbed 100k into bank shares earlier in the year and now they are not paying a dividend, should the government not just pay me what I think I should be getting instead? I was going to use those dividends to go off on me holidays in August and now I don't have that income so the government should give it to me. Is that not your "logic"?

How about the 50k I put into penny stocks that went to zero. They should refund that to me too, right?

No.. that's an investment. If you read my post above ('Go back and read it again. It's not long') you'd see the fairly simple logic that's being applied.

If someone is in that game and depending hand-to-mouth on the rental money coming in, then I'd advise them to get out of it quick. Because they shouldn't be in a business where they can't understand basic risks. That's can't understand them, never mind attempt to manage them.

You're inventing situations. 'Depending' is the word that matters above. By your logic, HomeStoreandMore, Harvey Norman, Ryanair, Irish Ferries, Gardening centres, Pubs, etc. should just go out of business now, as they hadn't put money aside for a potential 3 month country wide closure.

beauf · 09-04-2020 3:44pm

Donald Trump wrote: »

...
Any person who knows anything about the Irish property market and renting knows that it is quite possible that at any given point in time that ya might find zero cashflow coming from your property. If someone is in that game and depending hand-to-mouth on the rental money coming in, then I'd advise them to get out of it quick. ...

You can't get out of it quick. The govt made sure of that.

Living hand to mouth is not viable long term. That's true of anything. Which why you make as much money when you can, to cover the times when you can't.

For the last few years, decades even, trying to make that point about being a landlord was lambasted as being greedy. That it should be run at cost or even a loss as it was property speculation not a business where cash flow was important.

We are about to find out what the reality is.

Donald Trump · 09-04-2020 3:50pm

Gumbo wrote: »

Using your logic then, the tenant should have savings to weather this storm.
Good point.

Yeah they should.

When you have a business, you need to run it like a business. Even your business is owed money by another business, or even a private individual, that counterparty should have money set aside to pay you. But if they don't then that's your problem unfortunately.

Donald Trump · 09-04-2020 3:58pm

Deleted User wrote: »

No.. that's an investment. If you read my post above ('Go back and read it again. It's not long') you'd see the fairly simple logic that's being applied.

Okaaayyyyyyyyyyy.

So if John puts 250k into a house and expects to sit on his hole and to live off the income, that's a profession.

And Mary puts 250k into bank shares and expects to sit on her hole and live off the income then that's an investment.

Man, you're really showing why you probably should use a good financial advisor.

Deleted User wrote: »

You're inventing situations. 'Depending' is the word that matters above. By your logic, HomeStoreandMore, Harvey Norman, Ryanair, Irish Ferries, Gardening centres, Pubs, etc. should just go out of business now, as they hadn't put money aside for a potential 3 month country wide closure.

It's great that you have access to all the internal financial accounts of those businesses to know what they do and don't have :pac:

I'll summarize your situation as follows:

Person sees other people buying houses. Doesn't do any research and decides it's easy money. Goes to a bank and gets a loan. Buys house. Finds tenant who pays more rent than mortgage. "Great" thinks person. I must be really really smart. Then a speedbump is hit. Person cries "wahh wahhh wahh, I don't understand the risks. That means that I should get free money from the government doesn't it"

handlemaster · 09-04-2020 4:39pm

Donald Trump wrote: »

Ah sure look. If I lobbed 100k into bank shares earlier in the year and now they are not paying a dividend, should the government not just pay me what I think I should be getting instead? I was going to use those dividends to go off on me holidays in August and now I don't have that income so the government should give it to me. Is that not your "logic"?

How about the 50k I put into penny stocks that went to zero. They should refund that to me too, right?

You might think it's laughable because you possibly didn't read what I wrote.
Go back and read it again. It's not long

Any person who knows anything about the Irish property market and renting knows that it is quite possible that at any given point in time that ya might find zero cashflow coming from your property. If someone is in that game and depending hand-to-mouth on the rental money coming in, then I'd advise them to get out of it quick. Because they shouldn't be in a business where they can't understand basic risks. That's can't understand them, never mind attempt to manage them.

You said it again Business.. like any business ups and downs..

handlemaster · 09-04-2020 4:40pm

Donald Trump wrote: »

Okaaayyyyyyyyyyy.

So if John puts 250k into a house and expects to sit on his hole and to live off the income, that's a profession.

And Mary puts 250k into bank shares and expects to sit on her hole and live off the income then that's an investment.

Man, you're really showing why you probably should use a good financial advisor.

It's great that you have access to all the internal financial accounts of those businesses to know what they do and don't have :pac:

I'll summarize your situation as follows:

Person sees other people buying houses. Doesn't do any research and decides it's easy money. Goes to a bank and gets a loan. Buys house. Finds tenant who pays more rent than mortgage. "Great" thinks person. I must be really really smart. Then a speedbump is hit. Person cries "wahh wahhh wahh, I don't understand the risks. That means that I should get free money from the government doesn't it"

Property investing isn't always passive.

DubCount · 09-04-2020 5:16pm

I think this thread is brilliant !!

Residential Letting is now "an investment". I've owned bank shares. Never once did the bank call me at 6AM to tell me they had a problem with their washing machine.

Residential Letting is now "a business". When rent controls were being brought in, I was told it was not a business but a social service.

From my point of view, residential letting was a "constant headache" - I'm not sure how anyone still does it as an investment or business.

Please remember when all this is over, we will be glad we supported all businesses, investors and entrepreneurs. They will pay the taxes we need to pay for our services. Its important they survive.

Pkiernan · 09-04-2020 5:28pm

The thing that makes it different is that the government has made it illegal to evict tenants for the foreseeable future.
This is a good measure by the way, but surely
In this case, then surely the government should at least partly compensate the landlord.

The government hasn't banned companies from laying off workers.

Nor has it banned utility companies for charging for their services.

noodler · 09-04-2020 5:30pm

If it's your only source of income then get a job.

If it's not then you don't need it.

Bizarre thread.

Gumbo · 09-04-2020 6:44pm

noodler wrote: »

If it's your only source of income then get a job.

Bizarre logic. The same applies to any other employee laid off and in receipt of the C19 payment by that logic.

Donald Trump · 09-04-2020 8:48pm

Gumbo wrote: »

Bizarre logic. The same applies to any other employee laid off and in receipt of the C19 payment by that logic.

Well if you are a "laid off" landlord then sure apply for the payment like anyone else.

I wonder how many whinging on here are the type of leeches renting properties and subletting them to 10 tenants or putting them up on airbnb and now that the arse has fallen out of that they think they need a government bail out.

Too big to fail yiz aren't lads :pac:

handlemaster · 09-04-2020 10:23pm

Donald Trump wrote: »

Well if you are a "laid off" landlord then sure apply for the payment like anyone else.

I wonder how many whinging on here are the type of leeches renting properties and subletting them to 10 tenants or putting them up on airbnb and now that the arse has fallen out of that they think they need a government bail out.

Too big to fail yiz aren't lads :pac:

What's your issue with landlords ?

Donald Trump · 09-04-2020 10:35pm

handlemaster wrote: »

What's your issue with landlords ?

No issue with landlords. Fed up listening to part time amateurs moaning though. As if the rest of the populace should pay their mortgage for them so that they get a free house at no risk to themselves.

That ain't the way it works lads and lassies. Risk and reward. If you are happy to take the risk, then take it. If you blindly take the risk without realising it then do your homework the next time.

The reason that most have the houses is that they simply agreed to pay more than the next highest bidder. It's hardly an addition to humanity now is it? If I'm a tout and I get onto ticketmaster and buy 4 tickets for U2 for 50 quid each, knowing I can sell them later for 200 quid each, I haven't added anything. I haven't increased the supply.

Granted there are the odd few who genuinely have a house to rent. Maybe two people got married/moved in together and the houses in negative equity so they weren't in a position to sell. But some posts on here just appear to be people who feel entitled to "free" money.

The only difference between that type of attitude and the dole lifers playing the system and thinking that the state owes them a standard of living is that the former were able to get credit from a Bank.

Be a landlord if you want to be. But understand the risks and own them and don't be moaning about them afterwards if you are one of the unlucky ones.

Graham · 09-04-2020 10:50pm

Mod Note

Donald Trump, improve the standard of your posts or stop posting.

Gumbo · 09-04-2020 10:52pm

Donald Trump wrote: »

No issue with landlords. Fed up listening to part time amateurs moaning though. As if the rest of the populace should pay their mortgage for them so that they get a free house at no risk to themselves.

That ain't the way it works lads and lassies. Risk and reward. If you are happy to take the risk, then take it. If you blindly take the risk without realising it then do your homework the next time.

The reason that most have the houses is that they simply agreed to pay more than the next highest bidder. It's hardly an addition to humanity now is it? If I'm a tout and I get onto ticketmaster and buy 4 tickets for U2 for 50 quid each, knowing I can sell them later for 200 quid each, I haven't added anything. I haven't increased the supply.

Granted there are the odd few who genuinely have a house to rent. Maybe two people got married/moved in together and the houses in negative equity so they weren't in a position to sell. But some posts on here just appear to be people who feel entitled to "free" money.

The only difference between that type of attitude and the dole lifers playing the system and thinking that the state owes them a standard of living is that the former were able to get credit from a Bank.

Be a landlord if you want to be. But understand the risks and own them and don't be moaning about them afterwards if you are one of the unlucky ones.

Replace the word landlord with tenant throughout your post and the same logic apples.

I’m glad I’m not in either scenario but your posts come across as if you have a serious chip on your shoulder.

Lockdown or not, you have to look after your own mental health, constantly posting about your grips with landlords (not just this thread, but most of your previous too) can’t be good for your head.

During these times, we have to ensure we all come out the other side, otherwise, there be nothing for nobody at the end of this.

Donald Trump · 09-04-2020 10:55pm

Gumbo wrote: »

Replace the word landlord with tenant throughout your post and the same logic apples.

I’m glad I’m not in either scenario but your posts come across as if you have a serious chip on your shoulder.

Lockdown or not, you have to look after your own mental health.

I don't think there are amateur or professional tenants.

Anyway I've leave ye to it.

P.S I've never rented (in Ireland) unless you count college accommodation back in the day (where I wasn't technically a tenant). And never rented to anyone else.

Gumbo · 09-04-2020 11:05pm

Donald Trump wrote: »

P.S I've never rented (in Ireland) unless you count college accommodation back in the day (where I wasn't technically a tenant). And never rented to anyone else.

Then maybe you have no idea of how the market works in reality and shouldn’t be commenting on things that you have no experience in.

Your only half way experience with landlords in this country is as a licensee (college digs), many many years ago (as you state). Things are different now. Vastly.

pwurple · 09-04-2020 11:15pm

Donald Trump wrote: »

I've never rented (in Ireland) unless you count college accommodation back in the day (where I wasn't technically a tenant). And never rented to anyone else.

Soooo, with zero experience you put yourself about as an armchair expert. Classic boards.

Donald Trump · 09-04-2020 11:52pm

Gumbo wrote: »

Then maybe you have no idea of how the market works in reality and shouldn’t be commenting on things that you have no experience in.

Your only half way experience with landlords in this country is as a licensee (college digs), many many years ago (as you state). Things are different now. Vastly.

Hi.

I am not the one making investments in the area. If I was, I would investigate it and understand the inherent risks before making an informed decision. After which, I would accept the consequences of that decision.

There is general advice applicable to anyone making an investment. Don't invest more than you can afford to lose or have locked up for extended times. Understand the risks etc. Don't put all your eggs in one basket. If you come and tell me that you will retire next year and you've put 100% of your pension into shares in one electric car manufacturer, I will tell you that that is not a good idea. I don't have to know anything about electric cars market. If you tell me you put 100% into Apple or IBM, I'll tell you the same thing. I don't need to know what Apple's quarterly earnings projections are.

I don't think that it's a secret that tenants sometimes don't bother to pay their landlords for extended periods of time. So if you plan to get into that business, then you need to plan to mitigate and manage the risk of that possibility.

People are calling it their profession. Well so be it, but every business runs the risk of having a defaulting client. And businesses have to put those protections in place and manage those risks. You can't have the state bailing out everyone who has bad luck or didn't put protections in place. If you do, you generate enormous moral hazard.

The system of having many "individual landlords" is inefficient. That's just reality and common sense. And it is far more risky for that individual investor too. If you want exposure to property in your portfolio then perhaps a property investment fund is a better way for you. It's more liquid. The properties will be manged by full time professionals and maintenance people etc. You wouldn't have the satisfaction of being able to call around on the first of the month to collect your rent, but you also don't have the hassle of doing that!

Simple example. You have 100 properties, 100 investors and 100 tenants. 5 of the tenants will default and overhold within the next 12 months.
The first option is that each landlord buys one property and lets it to one tenant. The result is that at the end of year 1, 5 landlords will be in the **** because they were unlucky to get the non-paying tenant.
Second option is for the investors to club together, buy 100 properties and let them to the 100 tenants. At the end of the year each investor had a little less money than they would have had they owned their own specific house and had a full-paying tenant.

pwurple wrote: »

Soooo, with zero experience you put yourself about as an armchair expert. Classic boards.

There is no point coming on here and saying someone is unqualified to comment because they are neither a landlord or a tenant and implying that getting a loan and buying a house somehow makes one a new Oracle of Omaha. I mean it's that type of arrogance that is a large part of the problem. Filling out a form at your bank and getting mortgage approval and outbidding the family wanting that scare resource (same as in my example of U2 ticket tout) might allow you to ride the wave of a bull market so to speak. You might think that you are an expert. But you'll hit a speedbump and learn pretty quickly where exactly your expertise is. You might be fine or you might be in trouble. But if it turns out that you are in trouble because you didn't understand something could happen, then the state should not be bailing you out.

redarmyblues · 10-04-2020 12:03am

handlemaster wrote: »

What's your issue with landlords ?

Spunked everything on horses and drink and never owned anything.

Donald Trump · 10-04-2020 12:08am

redarmyblues wrote: »

Spunked everything on horses and drink and never owned anything.

Sorry to hear that.
I think that there are places you can go to get help with those things
Obviously once the corona lockdown ends

But let us know how you get on. It is never too late to turn things around.

redarmyblues · 10-04-2020 12:09am

Reading the rantings of Donald Trump, great user name it really suits you. Being a Landlord is a business until the tenants don't pay the rent and then it becomes social welfare provision.

Donald Trump · 10-04-2020 12:12am

redarmyblues wrote: »

Reading the rantings of Donald Trump, great user name it really suits you. Being a Landlord is a business until the tenants don't pay the rent and then it becomes social welfare provision.

Feel free to quote where I said any of that. Not sure where you are dreaming about social welfare from

handlemaster · 10-04-2020 8:48am

Donald Trump wrote: »

Hi.

I am not the one making investments in the area. If I was, I would investigate it and understand the inherent risks before making an informed decision. After which, I would accept the consequences of that decision.

There is general advice applicable to anyone making an investment. Don't invest more than you can afford to lose or have locked up for extended times. Understand the risks etc. Don't put all your eggs in one basket. If you come and tell me that you will retire next year and you've put 100% of your pension into shares in one electric car manufacturer, I will tell you that that is not a good idea. I don't have to know anything about electric cars market. If you tell me you put 100% into Apple or IBM, I'll tell you the same thing. I don't need to know what Apple's quarterly earnings projections are.

I don't think that it's a secret that tenants sometimes don't bother to pay their landlords for extended periods of time. So if you plan to get into that business, then you need to plan to mitigate and manage the risk of that possibility.

People are calling it their profession. Well so be it, but every business runs the risk of having a defaulting client. And businesses have to put those protections in place and manage those risks. You can't have the state bailing out everyone who has bad luck or didn't put protections in place. If you do, you generate enormous moral hazard.

The system of having many "individual landlords" is inefficient. That's just reality and common sense. And it is far more risky for that individual investor too. If you want exposure to property in your portfolio then perhaps a property investment fund is a better way for you. It's more liquid. The properties will be manged by full time professionals and maintenance people etc. You wouldn't have the satisfaction of being able to call around on the first of the month to collect your rent, but you also don't have the hassle of doing that!

Simple example. You have 100 properties, 100 investors and 100 tenants. 5 of the tenants will default and overhold within the next 12 months.
The first option is that each landlord buys one property and lets it to one tenant. The result is that at the end of year 1, 5 landlords will be in the **** because they were unlucky to get the non-paying tenant.
Second option is for the investors to club together, buy 100 properties and let them to the 100 tenants. At the end of the year each investor had a little less money than they would have had they owned their own specific house and had a full-paying tenant.

There is no point coming on here and saying someone is unqualified to comment because they are neither a landlord or a tenant and implying that getting a loan and buying a house somehow makes one a new Oracle of Omaha. I mean it's that type of arrogance that is a large part of the problem. Filling out a form at your bank and getting mortgage approval and outbidding the family wanting that scare resource (same as in my example of U2 ticket tout) might allow you to ride the wave of a bull market so to speak. You might think that you are an expert. But you'll hit a speedbump and learn pretty quickly where exactly your expertise is. You might be fine or you might be in trouble. But if it turns out that you are in trouble because you didn't understand something could happen, then the state should not be bailing you out.

Looking at your posts there is on sence in them. It's just one long anti landlord post after another. Renting property is a business where the law and rules keep changing. It's not as you are trying to make out with your zero experience in the sector either as a tenant or landlord. Its waffle really. Best stick to a topic you know somthing about.

Fol20 · 10-04-2020 9:38am

Donald Trump wrote: »

Well if you are a "laid off" landlord then sure apply for the payment like anyone else.

I wonder how many whinging on here are the type of leeches renting properties and subletting them to 10 tenants or putting them up on airbnb and now that the arse has fallen out of that they think they need a government bail out.

Too big to fail yiz aren't lads :pac:

Not all ll get the covid break either. Some of my tenants have given me the heads up they will struggle and won’t be able to pay full rent.

They will eventually pay back everything they owe similar to a mortgage break however when I went to my bank and outlined the situation with specific properties. I was declined.

Stop using emotive terms and provide facts please.

Donald Trump · 10-04-2020 9:45am

handlemaster wrote: »

Looking at your posts there is on sence in them. It's just one long anti landlord post after another. Renting property is a business where the law and rules keep changing. It's not as you are trying to make out with your zero experience in the sector either as a tenant or landlord. Its waffle really. Best stick to a topic you know somthing about.

Hi.

Plenty of laws change. Regulations come in over time. Business environments change etc.

If my posts do not make sense, they are not making sense to you. There are limited options for me to help you with that.

Fol20 · 10-04-2020 9:45am

Donald Trump wrote: »

No issue with landlords. Fed up listening to part time amateurs moaning though. As if the rest of the populace should pay their mortgage for them so that they get a free house at no risk to themselves.

That ain't the way it works lads and lassies. Risk and reward. If you are happy to take the risk, then take it. If you blindly take the risk without realising it then do your homework the next time.

The reason that most have the houses is that they simply agreed to pay more than the next highest bidder. It's hardly an addition to humanity now is it? If I'm a tout and I get onto ticketmaster and buy 4 tickets for U2 for 50 quid each, knowing I can sell them later for 200 quid each, I haven't added anything. I haven't increased the supply.

Granted there are the odd few who genuinely have a house to rent. Maybe two people got married/moved in together and the houses in negative equity so they weren't in a position to sell. But some posts on here just appear to be people who feel entitled to "free" money.

The only difference between that type of attitude and the dole lifers playing the system and thinking that the state owes them a standard of living is that the former were able to get credit from a Bank.

Be a landlord if you want to be. But understand the risks and own them and don't be moaning about them afterwards if you are one of the unlucky ones.

In the same vain, in your day job, have you invested a cure for covid, done anything life changing with your life? If not, your like the other 99pc on earth that just get on with life, provide a service to your employer or for ll to willing and paying tenants so get off your high horse.

If it was so easy to be a ll. why don’t more do it. Yes they get a property because they are the highest bidder. The big issue with your comment though is that you need the money to be the highest bidder. Similar to other people that excel and utilise their abilities as best as possible. If you have surplus cash that enables you to invest - use this to your advantage yet you seem to not even take that into account.

The main difference here is goal posts are being constantly changed. Yes there is risks and rewards but if the laws around this keep changing. Taxation changing and going up 5-10pc. Maintenance costs and laws changing. It’s hard to stick with your original business plan to a degree.

It isn’t “free money”. Ll need a minimum of 30pc of their own cash first. Ll provide a service. So no it’s not free.

Covid payments for Landlords

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