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Pregnancy out of wedlock and perception of disgrace.
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What you are talking about is different. There is not always a stigma behind the reason not to date a person with children, it can be a practical decision based on many factors. Many people who end up single parents never had a child outside marriage, circumstances just led them to a breakup. Its not the same as what the OP is describing.
Dating considerations don't account for women who had babies outside marriage being treated like dirt. I had a partner but still got called a slut by people in my locality and treated with hostility - funnily enough my other half never faced anything like that. Having a child without a husband or partner is not the worst thing in the world and isn't a reflection of the person.
For the time it limited your options, the family feared it would reflect badly on them and impact other family members options. It’s an understandable situation.
It does not excuse poor treatment in these facilities.0 -
I went out with a girl when i was 19 or 20 or so.
Basically she was the youngest of a large enough family with a huge gap of nearly 10 years or more between her and her next sibling.
Turns out her sister was her mother and her mother was actually her Grandmother. Sister gave birth and her mother raised her as her own.
The reason being her actual mother had an affair with a local man much older than her and got pregnant and was hid away. The bizarre thing is the man who had the affair with her had a daughter who ended up marrying my Uncle.
I still think back to being at a family wedding when she was with me and we were sat at the same table with my Uncle and my Aunt through marriage. Girlfriend and my Aunt sitting chatting away and not a sinner any the wiser that they were actually half sisters.
This is one of the reasons why it's so important to know who your biological parents are, you could have a brother and sister getting married to one another.0 -
A catholic school could still do this today, and I bet there are plenty of people who this has happened to including recently who simply can't fight the system.Not that long ago since an unmarried teacher was sacked for having a child (with a separated man). Courts upheld the decision saying it was against the school's ethos.
This wasn't that long ago. https://www.independent.ie/life/family/learning/id-do-it-again-says-principal-who-barred-pregnant-girl-from-school-26879242.html
Until we stop pussyfooting around with our mad patronage system schools will continue to be fiefdoms.0 -
This is one of the reasons why it's so important to know who your biological parents are, you could have a brother and sister getting married to one another.
it probably happens a lot , id say theres a few mothers sick to their stomach internally watching their kid cop off with a kid down the road and having to hide an affair with the neighbour till their grave.0 -
Not that long ago since an unmarried teacher was sacked for having a child (with a separated man). Courts upheld the decision saying it was against the school's ethos.
I'm aware that you're referring to the late Eileen Flynn. The High Court ruled against her and she couldn't afford to appeal because she wasn't a union member.0 -
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I was talking to my mam (mid 70's) about it and she told me when she was 19 , a neighbour of hers became pregnant, the father wasn't interested but she was able to keep the child as her parents supported her. The families attitude seemed to be the deciding factor. This was all prior to lone parents allowance too. That changed things completely because it allowed single mothers autonomy.
Back to the different time point that was made, I wonder is there things we do in today's society that will be looked back at with shock?0 -
A catholic school could still do this today, and I bet there are plenty of people who this has happened to including recently who simply can't fight the system.
This wasn't that long ago. https://www.independent.ie/life/family/learning/id-do-it-again-says-principal-who-barred-pregnant-girl-from-school-26879242.html
Until we stop pussyfooting around with our mad patronage system schools will continue to be fiefdoms.
There was a bit more to it than that. The manager of that school, the former principal, said:She was in three schools before she sought entry here -- the ombudswoman said she was in two schools. Now if you were principal, wouldn't that lead to questions?
By becoming a mother, the girl would've missed a lot of classes if she had been admitted to the school, thus causing difficulties for teachers, and it would also have meant that another student who would've liked to enrol there wouldn't have been able to.0 -
A catholic school could still do this today, and I bet there are plenty of people who this has happened to including recently who simply can't fight the system.
This wasn't that long ago. https://www.independent.ie/life/family/learning/id-do-it-again-says-principal-who-barred-pregnant-girl-from-school-26879242.html
Until we stop pussyfooting around with our mad patronage system schools will continue to be fiefdoms.
That is against employment law, it wouldn't be allowed now0 -
Str8outtaWuhan wrote: »What everyone forgets is while the church and state were in cahoots, where were the fathers and family of these poor girls? many of the families handed the girls over to save face. surely this is the greatest betrayal?
The eldest son in a large family with a small or large farm would have to wait until his father passed away before he inherited the land. He might be in his 50s or 60s and still a bachelor until the land passed to him. He would marry a much younger woman who would be expected to be a virgin and produce an heir. There being no contraception there would be a large family and the cycle would repeat itself.
While the eldest son waited for his inheritance he would have affairs with the daughters of labourers or shop girls or factory girls from the nearest market town. His brothers with no land coming to them had only the priesthood or becoming a brother or Garda or civil servant or join the army or emigration to look forward to. They would also have affairs with girls beneath their class.
On racing days or after GAA matches in Dublin the brothels in the towns or Monto in Dublin were busy.
The eldest and prettiest girls with a dowry and land coming to them could expect to marry farmers as long as they renained a virgin and childless. Their sisters could expect to become nuns or nurses or spinster teachers or emigrate. They would have affairs with single or married men.
A well to do girl could arrange an abortion privately in Ireland or travel to England.
A middle class girl could have her baby in secret and be on her way.
A poor girl was doomed to go to the launderies.0 -
Ave Sodalis wrote: »I wouldn't even go back as far as 30 years. I was born in the first half of the 90s to a single, teenage mother and the priest came looking to take me off her. Whilst my mother told them to go to hell, that shame was still lingering on in the 90s and I've no doubt that where my mother succeeded in keeping me, there were other women who were not so bullheaded when a priest came knocking and were guilted into giving up their child.
I'm going to call bollocks on this anecdote.0 -
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I'm going to call bollocks on this anecdote.
Call whatever you like. The priest, flanked by some of the local religious nuts, came knocking on my mother's door. They also called with my grandparents to convince them to get my mother to give me up. I've spoken about this before on here. Believe it, or not believe it, I don't care but I've posted enough on here to have been recognised in real life more than once, so there little point in me making something up like that when it's easy enough to confirmed.0 -
Not that long ago since an unmarried teacher was sacked for having a child (with a separated man). Courts upheld the decision saying it was against the school's ethos.
Yep. I know a young woman who had been subbing at a school and was denied a full time spot because the priest didn't want a single mother on staff.0 -
I'm going to call bollocks on this anecdote.
I believe it. In 1996 when I was pregnant I came home one day to find two people from some crisis pregnancy agency in my front room. What followed was an intense badgering trying to convince me to give my baby up for adoption. I still have no idea who they were but I know they were suggested to my mother by a priest. I refused of course and was told either I agreed or I left so I left. I still haven’t spoken to my mother not even at my own father’s funeral where she ignored me, my partner and daughter. I brought so much shame on her she never forgave me. Attitudes like those in the old days did exist long after we like to think they were consigned to history.0 -
Ave Sodalis wrote: »Call whatever you like. The priest, flanked by some of the local religious nuts, came knocking on my mother's door. They also called with my grandparents to convince them to get my mother to give me up. I've spoken about this before on here. Believe it, or not believe it, I don't care but I've posted enough on here to have been recognised in real life more than once, so there little point in me making something up like that when it's easy enough to confirmed.
What priest? On whose authority was he acting? What year was this? Where were they planning to take you? Good story; you got a few likes and you got to jump on the evil priests and nuns bandwagon but it didn't happen.0 -
Samsonsmasher wrote: »The eldest son in a large family with a small or large farm would have to wait until his father passed away before he inherited the land. He might be in his 50s or 60s and still a bachelor until the land passed to him. He would marry a much younger woman who would be expected to be a virgin and produce an heir. There being no contraception there would be a large family and the cycle would repeat itself.
While the eldest son waited for his inheritance he would have affairs with the daughters of labourers or shop girls or factory girls from the nearest market town. His brothers with no land coming to them had only the priesthood or becoming a brother or Garda or civil servant or join the army or emigration to look forward to. They would also have affairs with girls beneath their class.
On racing days or after GAA matches in Dublin the brothels in the towns or Monto in Dublin were busy.
The eldest and prettiest girls with a dowry and land coming to them could expect to marry farmers as long as they renained a virgin and childless. Their sisters could expect to become nuns or nurses or spinster teachers or emigrate. They would have affairs with single or married men.
A well to do girl could arrange an abortion privately in Ireland or travel to England.
A middle class girl could have her baby in secret and be on her way.
A poor girl was doomed to go to the launderies.
That's pretty much it for much of rural Ireland. Mind you 'the Monto' was closed down by 19300 -
I believe it. In 1996 when I was pregnant I came home one day to find two people from some crisis pregnancy agency in my front room. What followed was an intense badgering trying to convince me to give my baby up for adoption. I still have no idea who they were but I know they were suggested to my mother by a priest. I refused of course and was told either I agreed or I left so I left. I still haven’t spoken to my mother not even at my own father’s funeral where she ignored me, my partner and daughter. I brought so much shame on her she never forgave me. Attitudes like those in the old days did exist long after we like to think they were consigned to history.
Sorry to hear this. I can't imagine how tough this was.I doubt any one born in the last 30 years will ever under or comprehend what shame meant to family from early 1900 onwards here .
I think the closest you will come across is in Muslim families where parents will murder their daughters to prevent shame being brought on the family
I think we need to make a few points about Ireland - Irish Catholicism and Irish society.
Europe is a Christian continent. Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox. Yet if you look at some of the other European countries which were deeply religious, they had none of this stuff going on - no Magdalen laundries, no mother-and-baby homes etc. Good examples are Italy and Poland, both Catholic to the core. These things just did not exist there. I am more familiar with Poland - as far as I can ascertain (from talking to Polish people), if there was a child born out of wedlock, there was a certain degree of shame, but people just got on with it. The mothers raised the babies.
In Ireland, things were different for a number of reasons. There was a harsh Victorian morality which came over from England. The mores of the time was strict. As a lady, you should not have been even exposing your ankles. Everything 'untoward' was hush-hush.
Additionally, the country was exceedingly poor. A harsh life brings a harsh mentality. You make a mistake - you are on your own. You have a baby you cannot afford - give it away. Other European countries were not as badly off - no memories of a million people dying in a potato famine.
Also, it is worth mentioning that some claim that Irish Catholicism had tinges of Jansenism. This is a Catholic heresy which put a massive emphasis on the difficulty of working out your salvation. In effect, the fear of God, instead of His love and intimate friendship, were the order of the day. This heresy took hold in France. As we know, some Irish clerics were educated in France and some religious orders came to Ireland from there.
You could make a case that if you take Jansenism and mix in the harshness stemming from a life of poverty you will get some some fearsome clerics/nuns. This is unfortunately what many older people remember of the clergy.
From personal experience, when attending Mass abroad, it often seems like there is so much more joy and engagement in the foreign congregations - the true spirit of Catholicism. People go to Church because they want to worship their Creator, not because they were forced to. I think we have made strides in fixing some of the mistakes of Irish Catholicism, but unfortunately the Irish Church is still paying the price.
But not to tar everyone with the same brush - there are many older Irish priests and nuns whom I know who are just the most amazing people. They lived a life of absolute service and dedication, basically building and sustaining the Irish education and nursing systems from scratch because the State could not afford to.0 -
sabat wrote:What priest? On whose authority was he acting? What year was this? Where were they planning to take you? Good story; you got a few likes and you got to jump on the evil priests and nuns bandwagon but it didn't happen.
The local one priest. Father Sweeney was his name, if you actually want to know. He's dead now. He was acting on the authority of "God" presumably, since it was rural Ireland. It was in the first half of the 90s, as I said but I don't plan on revealing my age any more than that. They were taking me to foster care with a good Catholic married couple with the view to be adopted out.
I think you might be projecting there a fair bit if you think likes are something I care about. Why on earth would I make up a story like that? And what makes you think it's made up?0 -
Justin Uneven Bandit wrote: »Sorry to hear this. I can't imagine how tough this was.
I think we need to make a few points about Ireland - Irish Catholicism and Irish society.
Europe is a Christian continent. Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox. Yet if you look at some of the other European countries which were deeply religious, they had none of this stuff going on - no Magdalen laundries, no mother-and-baby homes etc. Good examples are Italy and Poland, both Catholic to the core. These things just did not exist there. I am more familiar with Poland - as far as I can ascertain (from talking to Polish people), if there was a child born out of wedlock, there was a certain degree of shame, but people just got on with it. The mothers raised the babies.
In Ireland, things were different for a number of reasons. There was a harsh Victorian morality which came over from England. The mores of the time was strict. As a lady, you should not have been even exposing your ankles. Everything 'untoward' was hush-hush.
Additionally, the country was exceedingly poor. A harsh life brings a harsh mentality. You make a mistake - you are on your own. You have a baby you cannot afford - give it away. Other European countries were not as badly off - no memories of a million people dying in a potato famine.
Also, it is worth mentioning that some claim that Irish Catholicism had tinges of Jansenism. This is a Catholic heresy which put a massive emphasis on the difficulty of working out your salvation. In effect, the fear of God, instead of His love and intimate friendship, were the order of the day. This heresy took hold in France. As we know, some Irish clerics were educated in France and some religious orders came to Ireland from there.
You could make a case that if you take Jansenism and mix in the harshness stemming from a life of poverty you will get some some fearsome clerics/nuns. This is unfortunately what many older people remember of the clergy.
From personal experience, when attending Mass abroad, it often seems like there is so much more joy and engagement in the foreign congregations - the true spirit of Catholicism. People go to Church because they want to worship their Creator, not because they were forced to. I think we have made strides in fixing some of the mistakes of Irish Catholicism, but unfortunately the Irish Church is still paying the price.
But not to tar everyone with the same brush - there are many older Irish priests and nuns whom I know who are just the most amazing people. They lived a life of absolute service and dedication, basically building and sustaining the Irish education and nursing systems from scratch because the State could not afford to.
That's an interesting perspective. I think another thing is that Ireland went from an agricultural , almost developing country to one of the wealthiest countries in the world over a few decades. Mother and baby homes and Magdalene launderies actually did exist in various forms worldwide (and still do in many countries, although they may go by a different name)
I think the difference is that other countries developed wealth and first world conditions over a much longer period so the people who experienced those institutions are long gone in those countries. In Ireland the survivors are still here as the country changed so quickly over such a short period of time0 -
Ave Sodalis wrote: »The local one priest. Father Sweeney was his name, if you actually want to know. He's dead now. He was acting on the authority of "God" presumably, since it was rural Ireland. It was in the first half of the 90s, as I said but I don't plan on revealing my age any more than that. They were taking me to foster care with a good Catholic married couple with the view to be adopted out.
I think you might be projecting there a fair bit if you think likes are something I care about. Why on earth would I make up a story like that? And what makes you think it's made up?
Some people find it hard to believe those attitudes exist in a modern country. It was a weird dichotomy, on the one hand we had the Celtic Tiger, a young and more open minded population but on the other a group of people who held on to old fashioned morality. When you look at where we are today it’s hard to believe women were subjected to that kind of sexual morality.0 -
Additionally, the country was exceedingly poor. A harsh life brings a harsh mentality. You make a mistake - you are on your own. You have a baby you cannot afford - give it away. Other European countries were not as badly off - no memories of a million people dying in a potato famine.
A genocide you mean. Ireland back then, like today, was a massive producer of all kinds of food exporting over 80% of produce. There was no shortage of food because of a failed potato crop. The Brits were responsible for those million deaths and that poverty.0 -
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I'm going to call bollocks on this anecdote.
Why are people on this site so incredibly quick to spout out "this has to be a wind up", "must be a troll", or similar to above?
It reads like some kind of gotcha, knowing full well that the OP cannot prove otherwise without giving a ridiculous level of detail - which still wouldn't be good enough proof.
The only way discussion forums like this work, is if people are taken at face value for their contributions.
Personally, I know of three cases where unmarried mothers were extremely pressurised into giving up their children for adoption, which was followed through in two cases. All three in the mid-late 80's - not exactly a lifetime ago.0 -
I believe it. In 1996 when I was pregnant I came home one day to find two people from some crisis pregnancy agency in my front room. What followed was an intense badgering trying to convince me to give my baby up for adoption. I still have no idea who they were but I know they were suggested to my mother by a priest. I refused of course and was told either I agreed or I left so I left. I still haven’t spoken to my mother not even at my own father’s funeral where she ignored me, my partner and daughter. I brought so much shame on her she never forgave me. Attitudes like those in the old days did exist long after we like to think they were consigned to history.
Have you considered standing in front of her to make your feelings clear to her and ask her why she did this to you?0 -
Duke O Smiley wrote: »My dad was turned down for the priesthood (at the age of 13!) because there was no father present in his household (his father had died) and his mother was raising he and his siblings on her own, which wasn't good enough for a potential priest, it was considered shameful.
He was told to go and join the brothers (Christian Brothers)...they'd take "his sort". And he did, at the tender age of 13, and left at 27.
Priests used to come from a certain class and still do. There are invisible ranks and glass ceilings in EVERY part of society. Yes you can be smart, work hard or earn a certain amount of money but society mostly keeps people in check.
The Orders in the church are much like the Army or any other level in Society. Some lads in the army want to be in Military Police and other want to be Air Defence, others want to be in the Army Band. Same with the church, You have the Jesuits at the tip top and lower down you have the Salesians and Christian Brothers. They have their ranks and classes too. Its just an extension of the social structures of school.0 -
Justin Uneven Bandit wrote: »Sorry to hear this. I can't imagine how tough this was.
I think we need to make a few points about Ireland - Irish Catholicism and Irish society.
Europe is a Christian continent. Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox. Yet if you look at some of the other European countries which were deeply religious, they had none of this stuff going on - no Magdalen laundries, no mother-and-baby homes etc. Good examples are Italy and Poland, both Catholic to the core. These things just did not exist there. I am more familiar with Poland - as far as I can ascertain (from talking to Polish people), if there was a child born out of wedlock, there was a certain degree of shame, but people just got on with it. The mothers raised the babies.
In Ireland, things were different for a number of reasons. There was a harsh Victorian morality which came over from England. The mores of the time was strict. As a lady, you should not have been even exposing your ankles. Everything 'untoward' was hush-hush.
Additionally, the country was exceedingly poor. A harsh life brings a harsh mentality. You make a mistake - you are on your own. You have a baby you cannot afford - give it away. Other European countries were not as badly off - no memories of a million people dying in a potato famine.
Also, it is worth mentioning that some claim that Irish Catholicism had tinges of Jansenism. This is a Catholic heresy which put a massive emphasis on the difficulty of working out your salvation. In effect, the fear of God, instead of His love and intimate friendship, were the order of the day. This heresy took hold in France. As we know, some Irish clerics were educated in France and some religious orders came to Ireland from there.
You could make a case that if you take Jansenism and mix in the harshness stemming from a life of poverty you will get some some fearsome clerics/nuns. This is unfortunately what many older people remember of the clergy.
From personal experience, when attending Mass abroad, it often seems like there is so much more joy and engagement in the foreign congregations - the true spirit of Catholicism. People go to Church because they want to worship their Creator, not because they were forced to. I think we have made strides in fixing some of the mistakes of Irish Catholicism, but unfortunately the Irish Church is still paying the price.
But not to tar everyone with the same brush - there are many older Irish priests and nuns whom I know who are just the most amazing people. They lived a life of absolute service and dedication, basically building and sustaining the Irish education and nursing systems from scratch because the State could not afford to.
The Nationalist Gaelic and Catholic revival had a lot to do with it.
You have to remember that Irish separatism and the Catholic Church were not one and the same but very interlinked.
The Irish Gaelic clan system and the Anglo Irish Old English nobility was shattered between the 16th and 17th centuries by plantation war and famine. The Gaels and the Old English supported the Stuart cause until the 18th Century when the Young Pretender died in exile. The Penal Laws were relaxed and repealed against Catholicism from the late 18th century when the Papacy finally recognised the British Protestant Crown around the sane time Maynooth College first opened until Catholic Emancipation and the Tithe War. A fair bit of anti Catholic bigotry coloured British laissez faire policy toward the Irish during the Great Famine.
A lot of parish churches were first built in the 1830s and it was only after the success of the Land War in the late 19th century that Catholic farmers gained control of their land and no longer paid rack rents to absentee British aristocrats. They prospered and spent their money on lavish cathedrals and high spired churches to put local Anglicans to shame.
The Gaelic Revival grew out if this confidence which led to the push for Home Rule by the Irish Parliamentary Party and the rise of Sinn Féin and the IRA a few years later.
The Irish Catholic Nationalists and Republicans wanted to create an Ireland that was Gaelic Catholic and Free. You have to remember that the men of the flying columns were mostly virgins mass goers and non drinkers who took the Pioneer pledge and if they weren't hero worshipping Cuchulainn or playing hurling were praying the rosary.
Huge numbers of young people with the spark of vocation became "heroic missionaries" and "dedicated brothers and sisters" and "helpers in the work of tomorrow" just as young people today join NGOs.
The idea that the Irish were uniquely pure Catholic innocent and pious the land of saints and scholars and noble warriors clashed with the poverty and misery of urban and rural Ireland. Conservative middle class Ireland saw the lower classes as an embarrasment.
The fact Ireland was impoverished further in the 1929 Crash the Economic War of the 1930s the Emergency and the isolation of the 1950s making a mockery of the dreams of the Irish Revolution led to a war against the poor against intellectuals against socialists and radicals and most importantly against those who did not obey Catholic morality. They were put out of sight and mind along with emigrants who were seen as traitors for leaving to live in Britain and America.0 -
Samsonsmasher wrote: »The Nationalist Gaelic and Catholic revival had a lot to do with it.
You have to remember that Irish separatism and the Catholic Church were not one and the same but very interlinked.
The Irish Gaelic clan system and the Anglo Irish Old English nobility was shattered between the 16th and 17th centuries by plantation war and famine. The Gaels and the Old English supported the Stuart cause until the 18th Century when the Young Pretender died in exile. The Penal Laws were relaxed and repealed against Catholicism from the late 18th century when the Papacy finally recognised the British Protestant Crown around the sane time Maynooth College first opened until Catholic Emancipation and the Tithe War. A fair bit of anti Catholic bigotry coloured British laissez faire policy toward the Irish during the Great Famine.
A lot of parish churches were first built in the 1830s and it was only after the success of the Land War in the late 19th century that Catholic farmers gained control of their land and no longer paid rack rents to absentee British aristocrats. They prospered and spent their money on lavish cathedrals and high spired churches to put local Anglicans to shame.
The Gaelic Revival grew out if this confidence which led to the push for Home Rule by the Irish Parliamentary Party and the rise of Sinn Féin and the IRA a few years later.
The Irish Catholic Nationalists and Republicans wanted to create an Ireland that was Gaelic Catholic and Free. You have to remember that the men of the flying columns were mostly virgins mass goers and non drinkers who took the Pioneer pledge and if they weren't hero worshipping Cuchulainn or playing hurling were praying the rosary.
Huge numbers of young people with the spark of vocation became "heroic missionaries" and "dedicated brothers and sisters" and "helpers in the work of tomorrow" just as young people today join NGOs.
The idea that the Irish were uniquely pure Catholic innocent and pious the land of saints and scholars and noble warriors clashed with the poverty and misery of urban and rural Ireland. Conservative middle class Ireland saw the lower classes as an embarrasment.
The fact Ireland was impoverished further in the 1929 Crash the Economic War of the 1930s the Emergency and the isolation of the 1950s making a mockery of the dreams of the Irish Revolution led to a war against the poor against intellectuals against socialists and radicals and most importantly against those who did not obey Catholic morality. They were put out of sight and mind along with emigrants who were seen as traitors for leaving to live in Britain and America.
Radicals who might have challenged this system were too concerned with splits in Republicanism hatred of Unionists and the British when thry should have turned their guns on the Church. Paisley a bigot himself of course was right about Rome Rule and the Romeward trend and knew what was in store for the Protestant people.
It's not surprising that the Irish Cabinet deferred to the Catholic hierarchy. The hierarchy were superior administers and part of the first multi national corporation - the Catholic Church.
Later Ireland would join the UN and EEC later the EU and allow multi national companies to establish themselves here and the Catholic Church was history.
That is brilliant.0 -
mariaalice wrote: »That is brilliant.
The decline of the Catholic Church was a slow process like the melting of a glacier.
After WW2 Clement Atlee became PM in Britain and created the welfare state. Similar reforms were on the cards especially state care for mothers by Dr Noel Browne but this was opposed by the church bringing down the coalition government.
In the late 1950s De Valera became President while Sean Le Mass became Taoiseach and JT Whitaker a senior civil servant was allowed to implement liberal economic programs which led to rapid economic growth and a dramatic rise in living standards - most middle class homes had electricity labour saving devices and by the early 1960s television which introduced people to the outside world and open political debate. The popularity of dance halls and pop music in the 1950s 1960s and 1970s put an end to Catholic supervision of young couples.
The Pill and other contraceptives were being posted from England and America by relatives to whomever wanted them along with money which had been sent for generations to keep families out of poverty back in Ireland.
In 1968 student revolts and civil rights struggles abroad inspired youth rebellion in Ireland - rioting in Derry which led to the outbreak of the Troubles and in Protestant Trinity College and Catholic UCD middle class student radicals rejected Catholic teaching smoked dope and experimented with sex. These young people became the journalists activists politicians writers and brosdcasters of the 1970s 1980s and 1990s who would campaign for the legalisation of homosexuality abortion divorce equality for women and much more.
In the North sectarian attacks and the insbility of the Catholic hierarchy to influence the Provisional IRA especially when John Paul II pleaded "on my his knees" to them to stop their armed campaign showed the church was out of touch.
When Ireland joined the EEC in 1973 the marriage ban which forced women to give up their jobs after marriage was abolished.
Other forms of discrimination gradually ended as attitudes changed.
Vocations fell as young men and women with a disposable income were determined to enjoy life rather than obey strict teachings anymore.
The Communist system fell when the wall came down in Berlin and Catholic Ireland was fatally wounded when Bishop Eamon Casey was revealed to have fathered a son with an American woman. Soon paedophiles like Father Brendan Smyth Father Ivan Payne and Father Sean Fortune were exposed and an avalanche of investigations into historical child sexual abuse and physical abuse by priests and by religious orders of nuns and brothers was exposed.
In the 1990s contraceptives were finally legally sold over the counter Playboy was legalized and bans were lifted on books and movies and replaced with age classification. The internet led to porn online dating and casual sex becoming mainstream. Being gay or lesbian was no longer shocking but accepted as everyday and normal.
Here we are today where Catholicism is practicised by the rural and elderly led by elderly clergy. Churches are empty except for funerals marriages Christmas and Easter.
Most people still believe in God and Jesus but Catholic worship and religious practice is going extinct. Soon there were will be a massibe shortage of priest. Many churches will close church property will be sold and Catholic schools be entirely state or privately run losing their Catholic ethos.0 -
Justin Uneven Bandit wrote: »Sorry to hear this. I can't imagine how tough this was.
I think we need to make a few points about Ireland - Irish Catholicism and Irish society.
Europe is a Christian continent. Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox. Yet if you look at some of the other European countries which were deeply religious, they had none of this stuff going on - no Magdalen laundries, no mother-and-baby homes etc. Good examples are Italy and Poland, both Catholic to the core. These things just did not exist there. I am more familiar with Poland - as far as I can ascertain (from talking to Polish people), if there was a child born out of wedlock, there was a certain degree of shame, but people just got on with it. The mothers raised the babies.
In Ireland, things were different for a number of reasons. There was a harsh Victorian morality which came over from England. The mores of the time was strict. As a lady, you should not have been even exposing your ankles. Everything 'untoward' was hush-hush.
Additionally, the country was exceedingly poor. A harsh life brings a harsh mentality. You make a mistake - you are on your own. You have a baby you cannot afford - give it away. Other European countries were not as badly off - no memories of a million people dying in a potato famine.
Also, it is worth mentioning that some claim that Irish Catholicism had tinges of Jansenism. This is a Catholic heresy which put a massive emphasis on the difficulty of working out your salvation. In effect, the fear of God, instead of His love and intimate friendship, were the order of the day. This heresy took hold in France. As we know, some Irish clerics were educated in France and some religious orders came to Ireland from there.
You could make a case that if you take Jansenism and mix in the harshness stemming from a life of poverty you will get some some fearsome clerics/nuns. This is unfortunately what many older people remember of the clergy.
From personal experience, when attending Mass abroad, it often seems like there is so much more joy and engagement in the foreign congregations - the true spirit of Catholicism. People go to Church because they want to worship their Creator, not because they were forced to. I think we have made strides in fixing some of the mistakes of Irish Catholicism, but unfortunately the Irish Church is still paying the price.
But not to tar everyone with the same brush - there are many older Irish priests and nuns whom I know who are just the most amazing people. They lived a life of absolute service and dedication, basically building and sustaining the Irish education and nursing systems from scratch because the State could not afford to.
Poor examples, Poland was communist, the Catholic religion was there but no institutional strength
Italy never practiced the kind of puritanical Catholicism that we did , neither did the likes of Brazil0 -
Justin Uneven Bandit wrote: »Sorry to hear this. I can't imagine how tough this was.
I think we need to make a few points about Ireland - Irish Catholicism and Irish society.
Europe is a Christian continent. Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox. Yet if you look at some of the other European countries which were deeply religious, they had none of this stuff going on - no Magdalen laundries, no mother-and-baby homes etc. Good examples are Italy and Poland, both Catholic to the core. These things just did not exist there. I am more familiar with Poland - as far as I can ascertain (from talking to Polish people), if there was a child born out of wedlock, there was a certain degree of shame, but people just got on with it. The mothers raised the babies.
In Ireland, things were different for a number of reasons. There was a harsh Victorian morality which came over from England. The mores of the time was strict. As a lady, you should not have been even exposing your ankles. Everything 'untoward' was hush-hush.
Additionally, the country was exceedingly poor. A harsh life brings a harsh mentality. You make a mistake - you are on your own. You have a baby you cannot afford - give it away. Other European countries were not as badly off - no memories of a million people dying in a potato famine.
Also, it is worth mentioning that some claim that Irish Catholicism had tinges of Jansenism. This is a Catholic heresy which put a massive emphasis on the difficulty of working out your salvation. In effect, the fear of God, instead of His love and intimate friendship, were the order of the day. This heresy took hold in France. As we know, some Irish clerics were educated in France and some religious orders came to Ireland from there.
You could make a case that if you take Jansenism and mix in the harshness stemming from a life of poverty you will get some some fearsome clerics/nuns. This is unfortunately what many older people remember of the clergy.
From personal experience, when attending Mass abroad, it often seems like there is so much more joy and engagement in the foreign congregations - the true spirit of Catholicism. People go to Church because they want to worship their Creator, not because they were forced to. I think we have made strides in fixing some of the mistakes of Irish Catholicism, but unfortunately the Irish Church is still paying the price.
But not to tar everyone with the same brush - there are many older Irish priests and nuns whom I know who are just the most amazing people. They lived a life of absolute service and dedication, basically building and sustaining the Irish education and nursing systems from scratch because the State could not afford to.
No offence to you, but talking about the 'mistakes' of Irish catholicism is very misguided. There were no mistakes, everything went exactly to plan.
The Church maintained its iron grip on Irish society by controlling every aspect of it. Anyone who didn't conform, whether intentionally or otherwise, was subjected to the most merciless punishment and everyone was kept in line through fear. That was nothing to do with Victorian morality or the potato famine.
It's the old cliche about absolute power corrupts absolutely. The Catholics were no different to any other dictatorship, whatever noble goals they started out with were soon forgotten about it and it became all about ensuring the primacy of catholicism in every aspect of life.
I don't disagree that there were good priests and nuns - but they were just pawns for the evil of the wider organisation. They still had to sell the party line on morality, education and conformity.
Any time they've been called to account and repent, they've weaseled out of it. When they had a real opportunity to make amends via the residential redress board, they just couldn't let go of their wealth and lands because there was no real contrition, there was no real remorse. They were like a bold child, not sorry for what they did but sorry they got caught.
And again, the government failed to stand up to them like they had for the previous 70 years. And we picked up the tab, as we will do again for the poor unfortunates who had to go through the hell of the mother and baby homes.
I see old people still going to mass and I pity them. I'm sure these are good people who can't see that they're fanning the dying embers of the worst thing that ever happened this country.
People talk about churches closing and shortages of priests as a bad thing. I think it will be our final step out of the cave. It can't come quick enough.0 -
That's reasonable, up to a point, given the discussion we're having.Kevin Irving wrote: »The only way discussion forums like this work, is if people are taken at face value for their contributions.
And so long as we're mindful that, unfortunately, contributions can't be taken at face value in any process that actually has a point - such as, for the sake of argument, a system for paying out compensation claims.0 -
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Former Former Former wrote: »No offence to you, but talking about the 'mistakes' of Irish catholicism is very misguided. There were no mistakes, everything went exactly to plan.
The Church maintained its iron grip on Irish society by controlling every aspect of it. Anyone who didn't conform, whether intentionally or otherwise, was subjected to the most merciless punishment and everyone was kept in line through fear. That was nothing to do with Victorian morality or the potato famine.
It's the old cliche about absolute power corrupts absolutely. The Catholics were no different to any other dictatorship, whatever noble goals they started out with were soon forgotten about it and it became all about ensuring the primacy of catholicism in every aspect of life.
I don't disagree that there were good priests and nuns - but they were just pawns for the evil of the wider organisation. They still had to sell the party line on morality, education and conformity.
Any time they've been called to account and repent, they've weaseled out of it. When they had a real opportunity to make amends via the residential redress board, they just couldn't let go of their wealth and lands because there was no real contrition, there was no real remorse. They were like a bold child, not sorry for what they did but sorry they got caught.
And again, the government failed to stand up to them like they had for the previous 70 years. And we picked up the tab, as we will do again for the poor unfortunates who had to go through the hell of the mother and baby homes.
I see old people still going to mass and I pity them. I'm sure these are good people who can't see that they're fanning the dying embers of the worst thing that ever happened this country.
People talk about churches closing and shortages of priests as a bad thing. I think it will be our final step out of the cave. It can't come quick enough.
I don’t know. I’m not religious but have family that are, one that was a victim of abuse. People love to bash the church and they have a lot to answer for but then the same people will want their kids in a religious school be baptised etc when it suits them. The state did nothing and it was ordinary people enabling all this. If you want the church gone then it’s for everything, you can’t come back and decide you want be be buried in a Christian graveyard because your family were.0
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