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Civil marriage three months before church one

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  • 25-01-2016 11:37am
    #1
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,131 CMod ✭✭✭✭


    I have an ancestor with the name McKeogh or McKeown or McKeon - it varies as many did back then.

    I have her marrying in a church (McKeon) on 11th February 1862 - found in the NLI Parish records.

    I recently joined Ancestry and see from 'hints' that my extended (mainly American) family have her in the civil registration records as marrying (as McKeogh) on the 20th November 1861 - would that have been in a registry office? Was that unusual in those days - particularly if followed three months later by a church wedding?

    I haven't found any evidence of an 'early' child which might explain the 'need to get married', though of course I can't rule out that perhaps they lost a baby. Their first child that I can see was born in Feb 1863.

    There is also the slim possibility that they are the weddings of two different couples, though the groom's surname is not a common one and is spelled the same in both locations.


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    #2
    pinkypinky
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,622 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    Were the couple Church of Ireland or another Protestant denomination?

    I presume not, since you found a church record in the NLI, which only has Catholic records. If so, then there will be no civil marriage. Civil registration of Catholic marriages didn't start until 1864 because the RCC didn't want to assist with the paperwork.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



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    #3
    pedroeibar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    Firstly I’m always deeply suspicious of online trees as I invariably find errors, most of them quite basic/stipid and the link being used to conveniently “adopt” an earlier generation.
    While rare surnames are uncommon, they can be frequent in a specific locality, with eldest sons of different families being named after a common grandfather.
    Your couple was not legally obliged to register the marriage in 1862, so it would have taken place in a registry office. A possibility is that they were of different religions – and one decided to convert later and consent to a church wedding.


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    #4
    pedroeibar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    Double post ?


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    #5
    pinkypinky
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,622 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    While the registry office did exist then, it was EXTREMELY rare for it to be used at this date. An expert on civil records once estimated it as fewer than 10 marriage a year for the whole country, and it would have been seen as a scandal in its own right.

    I have a mixed marriage couple in 1908 who married in both a COI and RC church on the same day.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



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    #6
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,131 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    They were RC, as far as I know. There's no mention in the church record of either having switched, so I think it's more likely they both were.

    The 'civil' record is the one throws the spanner in the works with regards to her 'different' name. I'm thinking while I can see the Church record for myself, I will keep it as 'real' and consider the earlier one as a 'maybe', or possibly even a different couple altogether.

    Thanks all for your help.


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    #7
    pinkypinky
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,622 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    I'd contact the Ancestry tree owner and ask them where they got that information too.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



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    #8
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,131 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    pinkypinky wrote: »
    I'd contact the Ancestry tree owner and ask them where they got that information too.

    Will do - it seems terribly specific. Thanks.


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    #9
    pedroeibar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    My experience when I make polite contact on errors such as this = deafening silence:)


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    #10
    KildareFan
    Registered Users Posts: 683 ✭✭✭KildareFan


    I find if the date on ancestry has no link to a source it's generally a wrong date. If the source is another family tree, it's also unreliable. I've sent messages to various trees, pointing out errors and rarely received a response.


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    #11
    KildareFan
    Registered Users Posts: 683 ✭✭✭KildareFan


    Hi - there is a civil record of a marriage Kate McKeogh/Stephen Loughman in 1861 on Irishgenealogy http://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/348fb79394278
    you can get the cert from the GRO - details
    Roscrea 1861 Quarter 1 [Jan-Mar] Vol 10 p36

    On FamilySearch org a couple with the same names were married on 20 Nov 1861 [Source Ireland Marriages, 1619-1898," database, FamilySearch https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGCZ-JNP
    Stephen Loughman and Kate Mc Keogh, 20 Nov 1861; Roscrea, Tipp, Ireland, reference p36 ln81; FHL microfilm 101,431.

    It is possible that the same couple had their marriage blessed in a church ceremony at a later date. I have a couple in my family tree who married in the registry office in 1864, and married in a church 10 days later after one of the couple had been baptised into the catholic church - are there any notes on the church marriage register?


    The Family search reference is a transcription from the civil record, so you could cross check the date on the GRO cert.


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    #12
    shanew
    Registered Users Posts: 2,777 ✭✭✭shanew


    The other possible reason for a pre-1864 registry office marriage for an RC couple might be to allow for property or inheritance rights


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    #13
    Jellybaby1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,108 ✭✭✭Jellybaby1


    pinkypinky wrote: »
    I'd contact the Ancestry tree owner and ask them where they got that information too.

    Agree with this, and also I would check when the author of the tree was last logged in, if they haven't been on for ages maybe their sub has lapsed.


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    #14
    KildareFan
    Registered Users Posts: 683 ✭✭✭KildareFan


    Originally Posted by pinkypinky View Post
    I'd contact the Ancestry tree owner and ask them where they got that information too.

    I would think that the ancestry tree owner got their information from Familysearch.org which gives the 21 November 1861 date. Family search would have transcribed the details from the civil registration cert held in GRO - you'd need to order the marriage record from GRO to see if the transcription is correct and if the couple are the same couple who went through the church marriage at a later date.

    The details for the civil record as listed on Irishgenealogy.ie are:
    Name Kate McKeogh
    Date of Event 1861
    Group Registration ID N/R
    SR District/Reg Area Roscrea
    Returns Year 1861
    Returns Quarter 1
    Returns Volume No 10
    Returns Page No 36


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    #15
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,131 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    KildareFan wrote: »
    I would think that the ancestry tree owner got their information from Familysearch.org which gives the 21 November 1861 date. Family search would have transcribed the details from the civil registration cert held in GRO - you'd need to order the marriage record from GRO to see if the transcription is correct and if the couple are the same couple who went through the church marriage at a later date.

    New to this. Is the actual record likely to give me parent's names?


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    #16
    pinkypinky
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,622 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    The marriage cert will have the fathers' names only. If you have a read of our main sticky, it covers what's in each cert.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



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    #17
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,131 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    Morto. As a mod, I should have known that. Thank you.


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