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Any use to 1841/51 Census Search Records?

  • 10-01-2016 11:41pm
    #1
    The Chieftain
    Registered Users Posts: 298 ✭✭


    For many years, genealogy reference works have listed the so-called census search records as a source for otherwise lost information from the 1841 and 1851 censuses.
    Now that these records are now available online at the National Archives I made a search that turned up a record for some of my direct ancestors, Martin Walsh and Catherine Cooper. So, far, so good, but the record, which can be seen at the link below, does not actually include any results from the 1851 census! Seems worthless to me - what I am missing?

    censussearchforms.nationalarchives.ie/reels/c19/007246717/007246717_00333.pdf


Comments

  • #2
    Hermy
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 11,427 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hermy


    I don't know what you're missing but I think those of us who can't find any references to our ancestors in the 1841/51 Search Forms are missing much more.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • #3
    shanew
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,777 ✭✭✭shanew


    The Chieftain wrote: »
    ...So, far, so good, but the record, which can be seen at the link below, does not actually include any results from the 1851 census! Seems worthless to me - what I am missing?....

    That looks like the parents were located at the location specified, as the extract and certified sections are filled in - so a positive search. There are usually notes if the persons listed were not located.


  • #4
    The Chieftain
    Registered Users Posts: 298 ✭✭The Chieftain


    shanew wrote: »
    That looks like the parents were located at the location specified, as the extract and certified sections are filled in - so a positive search.

    Exactly. But there is no note of what was found in the "positive search" - ages or names. I already knew the parents. In fact, I had to know them, or I would not know that this record is for one of my families. So I do not seem to have gained anything - I thought if the search was positive, they would list results. Very disappointing.


  • #5
    The Chieftain
    Registered Users Posts: 298 ✭✭The Chieftain


    Hermy wrote: »
    I don't know what you're missing but I think those of us who can't find any references to our ancestors in the 1841/51 Search Forms are missing much more.


    How so? Simply finding a reference to someone you already know is a relative does not add much if anything. And if you don't know that they are related, then a form like the one I referenced won't help you.


  • #6
    Mollymoo19
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69 ✭✭Mollymoo19


    I suppose the moral of the story is you should understand the purpose of each document, before you use it to research your ancestors – that way you might avoid unnecessary disappointment. If you already know your ancestor's parentage and the townland they lived in 1841/51, you’re right, there is no real point in checking these census extracts, except you might get lucky and learn something new. But for those of us, who know our ancestor's name and address in 1901 and 1911, but do not know their parent’s names or where they came from, and know they were of an age to claim a pension - these census extracts might just be the Godsend we need. Sadly, in my case, documentation concerning the earlier claims was pulped and my great-great grandfather was 90 in 1909, so one of the first to claim a pension. Groan!


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  • #7
    pedroeibar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    What you get from that cert are her birth year, her parents’ names (or confirmation if you already have them) together with father’s occupation and the family’s address at a time just before the Famine. It also confirms that she was alive in 1917.

    Families tended to be quite static at that time, so it is likely that it was in that area back for several generations and it is worthwhile to check church registers. Annual income had to be less than about £30, so it also gives an idea of social standing.

    Quite frequently on these forms there will be marginalia, often the mother’s maiden name along with the names of siblings, listed to help identify the family if the surname is a common one in the district.

    By 1909 when these pension records were created people of pensionable age had probably moved during their lifetimes, so for many researchers it is a link to an ancestors place of origin, to a townland location that could have been unknown to them.

    You also have to ask yourself why did she wait until 1917 until she applied for the pension.

    So you learn rather a lot.:)


  • #8
    KildareFan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 683 ✭✭✭KildareFan


    I found the extract broke down a brick wall for me.

    In the Chieftain's case, Bridget who requested that search was presumably the daughter who was found in the 1851 census; the form gives a new contact name and address which may be Bridget's son - again, might be useful if you don't know that already. Also, the more documents that confirm what you already know the better.

    In my case, a woman who was a 'nurse child' in my great grandfather's house in 1851 had requested the search for pension purpose. She was no relation - but what great information turned up - my great great grandparents' address, the name of my great great grandmother, the date of their marriage, the names and date of birth of their children, including children who had died before the census, the name of a visiting cousin.... absolute gold dust for me.


  • #9
    The Chieftain
    Registered Users Posts: 298 ✭✭The Chieftain


    Mollymoo19 wrote: »
    I suppose the moral of the story is you should understand the purpose of each document, before you use it to research your ancestors – that way you might avoid unnecessary disappointment.
    I think I understand the basic purpose of the form. What, I also "understood" from descriptions in reference works is that the results of the search were recorded - that some of the 1841/51 census material was indirectly preserved in these forms. Perhaps I misunderstood, or perhaps such extracts are simply not universal when the family was found. But either way, that is not what I got.

    Mollymoo19 wrote: »
    But for those of us, who know our ancestor's name and address in 1901 and 1911, but do not know their parent’s names or where they came from, and know they were of an age to claim a pension - these census extracts might just be the Godsend we need.
    Well, consider the case I posted. If you knew just what you say above, then I don't think you would even know that she was "yours".
    - In the 1901 and 1911 census she is listed under her married name. Her married name is nowhere mentioned on the census search form.
    - The 1917 contact address is not her address, but the address of a literate person (assistant town clerk), who was obviously helping out with the application. From what I can see, this sort of assistance was a common occurrence.


  • #10
    The Chieftain
    Registered Users Posts: 298 ✭✭The Chieftain


    KildareFan wrote: »
    I found the extract broke down a brick wall for me.

    In the Chieftain's case, Bridget who requested that search was presumably the daughter who was found in the 1851 census; the form gives a new contact name and address which may be Bridget's son - again, might be useful if you don't know that already. Also, the more documents that confirm what you already know the better.

    In my case, a woman who was a 'nurse child' in my great grandfather's house in 1851 had requested the search for pension purpose. She was no relation - but what great information turned up - my great great grandparents' address, the name of my great great grandmother, the date of their marriage, the names and date of birth of their children, including children who had died before the census, the name of a visiting cousin.... absolute gold dust for me.

    Your gold dust was what I was hoping for, but alas.... no listing of siblings or marriage year for me!
    I think the conclusion I have is that reference works seem to poorly describe this resource. It would be good if they could state that in fact the results of a positive search are not always listed, and that how much info you get may depend largely on what was recorded by the applicant in terms of siblings, etc.


  • #11
    The Chieftain
    Registered Users Posts: 298 ✭✭The Chieftain


    pedroeibar1 wrote: »
    What you get from that cert are her birth year, her parents’ names (or confirmation if you already have them) together with father’s occupation and the family’s address at a time just before the Famine. It also confirms that she was alive in 1917.

    Quite frequently on these forms there will be marginalia, often the mother’s maiden name along with the names of siblings, listed to help identify the family if the surname is a common one in the district.

    By 1909 when these pension records were created people of pensionable age had probably moved during their lifetimes, so for many researchers it is a link to an ancestors place of origin, to a townland location that could have been unknown to them.

    You also have to ask yourself why did she wait until 1917 until she applied for the pension.

    So you learn rather a lot.:)

    She waited until 1917 to apply because that was when she turned 70...
    As for the other comments, consider this specific case.
    - In 1917 she was married for 37 years, but her married name does not appear on the form. If you only knew her married name, you would have a problem.
    - Her address in 1917 does not appear. The contact details are for a unrelated literate person who seems to have assisted with the application. I think this was a common occurrence.
    - Her place of birth (Kilrane) is significantly different then where she was living after marriage (Wexford).


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  • #12
    pinkypinky
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,676 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    I don't think you can apply modern rules to these records. It's clear from looking at them that they were not uniformly handled. Some have information from the census, some just says something like "person was there".

    Spelling could easily have changed/been fixed in the 60 plus years between those censuses and the search. Many people had an official conduct the search on their behalf so there's scope for an error.

    I think you're hoping for too much from a tiny record set that was never intended to replace the 1841/1851 census.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • #13
    The Chieftain
    Registered Users Posts: 298 ✭✭The Chieftain


    pinkypinky wrote: »
    I think you're hoping for too much from a tiny record set that was never intended to replace the 1841/1851 census.

    My complaint, if such it is, is that I was led to think that there would be "gold dust" as another has put it.... some reference works could be reworded to better describe what one may or may not find.


  • #14
    pedroeibar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    The Chieftain wrote: »
    She waited until 1917 to apply because that was when she turned 70...
    As for the other comments, consider this specific case.
    - In 1917 she was married for 37 years, but her married name does not appear on the form. If you only knew her married name, you would have a problem.
    - Her address in 1917 does not appear. The contact details are for a unrelated literate person who seems to have assisted with the application. I think this was a common occurrence.
    - Her place of birth (Kilrane) is significantly different then where she was living after marriage (Wexford).

    You are taking your personal experience and applying it across the spectrum as a criterion. Lots of us would love a few leads/confirmations like that. As Pinky and KFan said, the results vary, some get lucky, others get nothing.

    As for your points, I’m not going to debate, but an applicant who turned 70 some time before application could suggest that income dropped below the eligibility threshold (clue to search death records for a spouse).

    In many cases the married name is written on the form, you were just unlucky.

    Place of birth is there and is the clue that leads to Parish / Baptismal records – they are link to the earlier generation (s). That is far more interesting than current address, as that can be located with a bit of luck via the application location.

    I do agree that some sites – particularly the commercial ones – do make very misleading claims on their records. You are not the first and will not be the last to complain - that has been a longtime moan and topic of many of us on here. In fairness to the NAI they do not "talk up" their data.

    Most of us have to make do with crumbs and with luck and ingenuity can make a meal out of them. Personally I'm very happy that the CLDS, NAI & NLI have made so much available online and free of change.


  • #15
    tabbey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,943 ✭✭✭tabbey


    The Chieftain wrote: »
    She waited until 1917 to apply because that was when she turned 70...
    As for the other comments, consider this specific case.
    - In 1917 she was married for 37 years, but her married name does not appear on the form. If you only knew her married name, you would have a problem.
    - Her address in 1917 does not appear. The contact details are for a unrelated literate person who seems to have assisted with the application. I think this was a common occurrence.
    - Her place of birth (Kilrane) is significantly different then where she was living after marriage (Wexford).

    Kilrane is only six miles or so from Wexford town.


  • #16
    tabbey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,943 ✭✭✭tabbey


    Only a small minority of people are to be found on the census search (pension) forms. However every census is useful, so always seek, you just might find.

    For those with adult ancestors in Dublin in 1851, it is also worth looking at the Head of Household lists, extracted before the Four Courts fiasco of 1922. These can be perused in the Dublin City Library and Archive, 138-144 Pearse Street, and probably NLI etc.


  • #17
    The Chieftain
    Registered Users Posts: 298 ✭✭The Chieftain


    tabbey wrote: »
    Kilrane is only six miles or so from Wexford town.

    Distancesfrom.com says variously 18 and 22 km, one way from Wexford to Kilrane. Taking the lower figure, that is ~11 miles. So, 22 miles round trip, walking, which is how they had to do it - that is quite a way! You should try it :)


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