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Landlord violating privacy

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  • 02-08-2020 9:21pm
    #1
    Newbienoob
    Registered Users Posts: 32 ✭


    Question: photograph of landlord going through tenant's private belongings. What kind of làw exactly is this breaking if any? Do the guards deal with this?


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    #2
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,103 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    I'm not sure that this is of interest to the guards. Looking at or photographing things is not generally an offence, even if they are someone else's things and even if you happen to be trespassing while you are doing this. It's an aggravating factor that might increase the damages you can recover for the trespass, but that's a civil matter - no concern of the guards.

    What the landlord does with the photograph might, of course, be an offence. But the OP doesn't suggest that the landlord has done anything at all with it, other than handing it to the tenant, which is not an offence.

    The OP mentions "ongoing harrassment" but gives no details, so it's not possible to say if the harrassment constitutes an offence.


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    #3
    joeguevara
    Registered Users Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    Apologies I made an error. Thanks to quantum erasure for pointing it out. Harassment does not need to be for reasons of the nine grounds in the equality act and is defined in the non fatal offences act as any behaviour which seriously impacts a persons peace or privacy. Obviously emphasis is on seriously and would be a high bar.

    Surprised that the workplace definition of harassment is different as it is a single or continuous unwanted behaviour because of the 9 defined grounds.

    Anyway I hope the OP is able to sort this amicably.


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    #4
    Quantum Erasure
    Registered Users Posts: 8,201 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure


    You sure about that? Does there have to be continued legally defined 'discrimination' for something to qualify as harassment?


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    #5
    joeguevara
    Registered Users Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    I should have done a search and you are right it doesn’t need to be on the nine grounds. The non fatal offences act defines it as any behaviour that seriously interferes with a persons peace or privacy.

    Apologies for the error. I only ever professionally dealt with harassment in an workplace setting and it required it to be on the nine grounds.


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    #6
    Newbienoob
    Registered Users Posts: 32 ✭Newbienoob


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    I'm not sure that this is of interest to the guards. Looking at or photographing things is not generally an offence, even if they are someone else's things and even if you happen to be trespassing while you are doing this. It's an aggravating factor that might increase the damages you can recover for the trespass, but that's a civil matter - no concern of the guards.

    What the landlord does with the photograph might, of course, be an offence. But the OP doesn't suggest that the landlord has done anything at all with it, other than handing it to the tenant, which is not an offence.

    The OP mentions "ongoing harrassment" but gives no details, so it's not possible to say if the harrassment constitutes an offence.

    The landlord photographed themselves "with friends washing" so underwear to try to say washing machine was overloaded (an attempt to blame tenant and extort money for a new washing machine). Their hand is in the photograph and they have used it as "evidence" and uploaded to RTB, so they actually uploaded it. Friend feels completely violated. They've been followed, indirect harrassing messages (but now one message the landlord uploaded also as "evidence") many many defamatory claims, following, standing outside their home, coming in without permission etc. Previously the tenant won in RTB with landlord entering without permission but RTB treats very very leniently.
    Looking for the law on it?


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    #7
    Newbienoob
    Registered Users Posts: 32 ✭Newbienoob


    joeguevara wrote: »
    I should have done a search and you are right it doesn’t need to be on the nine grounds. The non fatal offences act defines it as any behaviour that seriously interferes with a persons peace or privacy.

    Apologies for the error. I only ever professionally dealt with harassment in an workplace setting and it required it to be on the nine grounds.

    The guards are aware and went to caution friend's landlord who wasn't in. Guard at that time was unwilling to put in writing for RTB anything... even simply saying this is the case number but said RTB can phone them ( RTB said no). Its a very unsympathetic process with RTB. Friend had actual ads showing property being advertised even though they were given notice on grounds of family leaving. Landlord said it was an accident and nothing done by RTB. Ads on 2 websites for a week.
    Friend hasn't gone yet to guards, they want to know the law behind it first and what action to take. Wondering should they have a lawyer at this point. They were forced to move out.


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    #8
    silver2020
    Registered Users Posts: 2,045 ✭✭✭silver2020


    Nothing to do with gardai as doesn't look like any criminal act has taken place. Photos of an overloaded washing machine is not a criminal act. - a huge number of people over load washing machines and then wonder why the machines break down! (you don't fill them until they take no more as this damages the motor https://www.bhg.com/homekeeping/laundry-linens/tips-checklists/how-to-load-a-washer/ )

    There seems to be agitation on both sides and as with all disputes there's your friends story, the landlord's story and the real story.


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    #9
    joeguevara
    Registered Users Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    Newbienoob wrote: »
    The guards are aware and went to caution friend's landlord who wasn't in. Guard at that time was unwilling to put in writing for RTB anything... even simply saying this is the case number but said RTB can phone them ( RTB said no). Its a very unsympathetic process with RTB. Friend had actual ads showing property being advertised even though they were given notice on grounds of family leaving. Landlord said it was an accident and nothing done by RTB. Ads on 2 websites for a week.
    Friend hasn't gone yet to guards, they want to know the law behind it first and what action to take. Wondering should they have a lawyer at this point. They were forced to move out.

    Do you know the circumstances of how they were forced to move out? Were they provided the correct paperwork and given the appropriate timeframe? Did they sign anything when forced to move out that might look like a consensual termination of a lease? Did they receive their deposit back?

    Hopefully they are in new accommodation without the hassle that they appeared to be subjected to. The best course of action is for them to outline in a timeline their understanding of being forced to move out. Make sure that they have a copy of the lease, termination notice if any, emails, text messages etc.

    They should also document their understanding of the harassment and back it up with messages, screenshots etc. They must be able to articulate that the actions of the landlord seriously effected them and/or their privacy. Is it possible that the landlord gave notice of inspections. Make sure that they have evidence of his illegal entry. Is their cctv footage or notes left etc. The photo sounds bizarre. Is there a possibility it was taken when the landlord came when the washing machine broke. It wouldn’t be normal for a landlord to enter illegally and take a photograph of a tenants personal items unless there were extreme circumstances such as illegal paraphernalia etc (which is not the case here). If the landlord is not visible in the photograph then they may say that it was not them who took it or was taken during a routine inspection with the consent of the tenant. If it’s a he said she said, then the most believable account (especially if is in line with accepted evidence).

    Once all of that is done, my advice would be for them to arrange a consultation with their local FLAC clinic (Free legal advice centre) to see what avenues are open.

    The most winnable part would be an illegal eviction if they can back it up. This is with the PRTB and if they win the damages are considerable. If they can include illegal access and inspections without notice all the bette but may be a separate case.

    For the harassment side, they have to determine if it’s worth it. The bar of seriously effecting them is hire high and with any case it can go either way. Harassment is a criminal offence so if they win the landlord would be punished but from the looks of things no damages are payable unless they could bring a civil case which would require payment of legal fees. If they win, costs usually follow the event which would mean their costs would be paid but unless they are able to quantify actual damages to them, it is a gamble.

    Hopefully it all works out for them.


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    #10
    Newbienoob
    Registered Users Posts: 32 ✭Newbienoob


    silver2020 wrote: »
    Nothing to do with gardai as doesn't look like any criminal act has taken place. Photos of an overloaded washing machine is not a criminal act. - a huge number of people over load washing machines and then wonder why the machines break down! (you don't fill them until they take no more as this damages the motor https://www.bhg.com/homekeeping/laundry-linens/tips-checklists/how-to-load-a-washer/ )

    There seems to be agitation on both sides and as with all disputes there's your friends story, the landlord's story and the real story.

    The landlord going through private belongings and photographing themselves doing it? Of course the overloading thing is a joke I cant say too much but mounds of factual photographs on friends end. landlord is a business and has no right to enter or go through a "clients"property. There is a long line of harrassment behind it. The landlord is in a position of power and this a business transaction, not a two sides to the story thing.
    I'm looking for a law on the landlord's actions. Thank you for your input


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    #11
    Newbienoob
    Registered Users Posts: 32 ✭Newbienoob


    joeguevara wrote: »
    Do you know the circumstances of how they were forced to move out? Were they provided the correct paperwork and given the appropriate timeframe? Did they sign anything when forced to move out that might look like a consensual termination of a lease? Did they receive their deposit back?

    Hopefully they are in new accommodation without the hassle that they appeared to be subjected to. The best course of action is for them to outline in a timeline their understanding of being forced to move out. Make sure that they have a copy of the lease, termination notice if any, emails, text messages etc.

    They should also document their understanding of the harassment and back it up with messages, screenshots etc. They must be able to articulate that the actions of the landlord seriously effected them and/or their privacy. Is it possible that the landlord gave notice of inspections. Make sure that they have evidence of his illegal entry. Is their cctv footage or notes left etc. The photo sounds bizarre. Is there a possibility it was taken when the landlord came when the washing machine broke. It wouldn’t be normal for a landlord to enter illegally and take a photograph of a tenants personal items unless there were extreme circumstances such as illegal paraphernalia etc (which is not the case here). If the landlord is not visible in the photograph then they may say that it was not them who took it or was taken during a routine inspection with the consent of the tenant. If it’s a he said she said, then the most believable account (especially if is in line with accepted evidence).

    Once all of that is done, my advice would be for them to arrange a consultation with their local FLAC clinic (Free legal advice centre) to see what avenues are open.

    The most winnable part would be an illegal eviction if they can back it up. This is with the PRTB and if they win the damages are considerable. If they can include illegal access and inspections without notice all the bette but may be a separate case.

    For the harassment side, they have to determine if it’s worth it. The bar of seriously effecting them is hire high and with any case it can go either way. Harassment is a criminal offence so if they win the landlord would be punished but from the looks of things no damages are payable unless they could bring a civil case which would require payment of legal fees. If they win, costs usually follow the event which would mean their costs would be paid but unless they are able to quantify actual damages to them, it is a gamble.

    Hopefully it all works out for them.

    Thank you for this. They have everything backed up with messages etc. The landlord is visible in the photograph and says it is them. There were no extreme circumstances for them to be there. Despite the issue, the landlord refused to deal with it, blamed my friend and told friend to get it repaired. No inspection or arrangement to come over was made.
    My friend experienced illegal constructive eviction i think its called whereby the landlord makes life impossible and the tenant is forced to leave. For safety we all advised my friend to leave. My friend is pursuing the RTB but is looking for a legal standpoint particularly because of the underwear thing, naturally they feel completely violated.
    There were no inspections organised. The landlord was previously taken to the RTB for illegal entry and the tenant won.
    It's the legal side of it, is there a law here? Isn't it perversion?
    It's very factual as my friend has backed up everything with texts and so forth.
    Thank you


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    #12
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,163 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    silver2020 wrote: »
    Nothing to do with gardai as doesn't look like any criminal act has taken place. Photos of an overloaded washing machine is not a criminal act. - a huge number of people over load washing machines and then wonder why the machines break down! (you don't fill them until they take no more as this damages the motor https://www.bhg.com/homekeeping/laundry-linens/tips-checklists/how-to-load-a-washer/ )

    There seems to be agitation on both sides and as with all disputes there's your friends story, the landlord's story and the real story.

    Misleading the RTB is a criminal offence, so if photographs were produced for that purpose there would be an offence committed.


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    #13
    Newbienoob
    Registered Users Posts: 32 ✭Newbienoob


    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    Misleading the RTB is a criminal offence, so if photographs were produced for that purpose there would be an offence committed.

    Can you explain this in more detail? The landlord has lied under oath and also damaged property after the tenant left and claimed it was my friend even though final inspection with witness was done. How do you show the landlord was misleading as you say?
    Do you mean the fact that the landlord photographed themselves as discussed in order to try to mislead the RTB into believing a mistruth, is a criminal act? This is what the landlord consistently does, the only saving grace is my friend under our advice has photographed literally everything daily anticipating anything might be blamed on them. The RTB don't seem to take ot as seriously as they should. It is effectively perjury also.


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