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Stratosphere watch 2018/19

135

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    sryanbruen wrote: »
    Very strange. ECM 10hPa zonal winds are now reversing in its forecast.

    If the zonal winds do not reverse, this won’t be a technical SSW. Albeit, that chart is 65 degrees North, it’s 60 degrees North we look at (I only noticed I made that mistake yesterday).

    The 60N chart is very similar:

    u_60N_10hpa.png

    Interestingly, the operational GFS 6z does seem to have backed off somewhat, with the warming peaking at 132h, and no real signs of a split. The Fv3, on the other hand, has now gone full split towards the end of FI.

    Let's hope the FV3 turns out to be the superior model, which is what one would surely expect given that it's to replace the operational in the coming months.

    Op:

    NhVggH3.gif

    FV3:

    3nNODyM.gif


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,666 ✭✭✭✭sryanbruen




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,666 ✭✭✭✭sryanbruen


    Also to note, both 10hPa and 30hPa have warmed up in the past day over the North Pole - 10hPa quite significantly so.

    VliLyBb.gif

    5U2FVSN.gif


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,666 ✭✭✭✭sryanbruen


    The 60N chart is very similar:

    Interestingly, the operational GFS 6z does seem to have backed off somewhat, with the warming peaking at 132h, and no real signs of a split. The Fv3, on the other hand, has now gone full split towards the end of FI.

    I see. :pac:

    https://twitter.com/SimonLeeWx/status/1075432508962025473


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    BOOM!!! :cool: :cool: :cool:

    dDAcTyY.gif

    Now, let's see this creep ever closer over the next few runs and not run away from us :D:D:D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,666 ✭✭✭✭sryanbruen


    Boom is right!

    https://twitter.com/MattHugo81/status/1075475651493289984

    Now let's have this signal be consistent..... please.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,633 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    Arctic Oscillation and Polar Vortex Analysis and Forecasts
    December 17, 2018

    Summary
    • The Arctic Oscillation (AO) is currently neutral and is predicted to straddle neutral right into the new year.
    • The current neutral AO is reflective of mixed pressure/geopotential height anomalies across the Arctic and mixed pressure/geopotential height anomalies across the mid-latitudes. The North Atlantic Oscillation (NAO) is currently also near neutral with weak positive pressure/geopotential height anomalies across Greenland and mixed pressure/geopotential height anomalies across the mid-latitudes of the North Atlantic and is predicted to remain close to neutral over the next two weeks.
    • Troughing/negative geopotential height anomalies across much of Europe is bringing near seasonable temperatures to below normal temperatures currently but in general ridging/positive geopotential height anomalies will increasingly dominate much of Europe over the next two weeks resulting in normal to above normal temperatures starting in Western Europe including the United Kingdom (UK) and spreading eastward.
    • Building ridging/positive geopotential height anomalies centered across Scandinavia and the Barents-Kara Seas will force downstream troughing/negative geopotential across large parts of Asia. Normal to below normal temperatures are mostly focused across Western Asia including much of the Middle East and the Indian subcontinent but will slowly spread eastward to eventually include Central and East Asia.
    • Troughing/negative geopotential height anomalies across Alaska and the Gulf of Alaska will help to focus troughing in the western part of North America with mostly ridging/positive geopotential height anomalies downstream across eastern North America. Cold temperatures will be mostly confined to Alaska this week but will start spreading south and east first across western Canada and then the Western United States (US). Meanwhile temperatures will mostly average normal to above normal in Eastern Canada and the Eastern US.
    • In the Impacts section, I discuss my observations for the large-scale pattern and temperatures across the Northern Hemisphere related to troposphere-stratosphere-troposphere coupling.

    source

    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,666 ✭✭✭✭sryanbruen


    sryanbruen wrote: »

    Now let's have this signal be consistent..... please.

    :rolleyes:

    https://twitter.com/DrAHButler/status/1075782109393051650


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    The split is gone on the 12z FV3, but it's still showing the PV squeezed into a figure of eight shape, just ready to split if it comes under more pressure.

    I don't see why there's so much hullaballoo over one day of slight downgrades tbh. The warming is still on track and FI is always going to flip and flop during an event like this... To look at NetWeather this afternoon you'd swear we've just seen a freakishly early start to Spring :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭Artane2002


    ECM splits the PV.


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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,467 Mod ✭✭✭✭mickger844posts


    As always with the models the trend is your friend and the trend for weeks now is a SSW event. Fully expect it to happen but no guarantee it will bring cold.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,958 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    When it comes to events in the stratosphere i would go with what glosea5 and what ECM depict, rather than the GFS. As far as i can see the split is still very much on.


  • Registered Users Posts: 721 ✭✭✭Defaulter1831


    https://www.netweather.tv/forum/topic/91032-hunt-for-cold-model-discussion-heading-into-christmas/?page=53

    I'm no expert but these charts seems to suggest a good vortex break is still on the cards..


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,666 ✭✭✭✭sryanbruen




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,951 ✭✭✭✭Villain


    A split and a second warming would be interesting!

    gfsnh-10-384.png


  • Registered Users Posts: 269 ✭✭Mount Vesuvius


    Thankfully there is no panic on this forum about models not showing any cold . Unlike that Netweather. Stop looking at each run until after Christmas as nothing is going to show up yet. The warming in the Stratospheric is only beginning now and when effects do influence the troposphere the cold might just pour over us or North America. I like our chances though.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,577 ✭✭✭Billcarson


    With a split vortex, highly likely we would get a cold spell. As soon as the decorations are down I reckon then the models will light up.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,666 ✭✭✭✭sryanbruen


    ECM 12z is showing split of the Polar Vortex again but just before the end of December. It's nice to see this instead of it constantly backtracking to +384 hrs like many days since this possible SSW came into view on the models.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,958 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    Billcarson wrote: »
    With a split vortex, highly likely we would get a cold spell. As soon as the decorations are down I reckon then the models will light up.

    A much greater chance than if it were a displacement, it's still not a guarantee as the daughter vortices could end up in the wrong place- for example if blocking ended up too far west- in whats called a west based nao. I think if we do get a cold spell around mid- January it maybe extended by a weak el nino aiding further blocking to develop


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,666 ✭✭✭✭sryanbruen


    A much greater chance than if it were a displacement, it's still not a guarantee as the daughter vortices could end up in the wrong place- for example if blocking ended up to far west- in whats called a west based nao. I think if we do get a cold spell around mid- January it maybe extended by a weak el nino aiding further blocking to develop

    https://twitter.com/MJVentrice/status/1075897160737189888


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭Artane2002


    The GFS Para 12z splits the vortex and practically destroys it!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Not a good few runs from the GFS, either op or FV3 - however, apparently it's quite the outlier:

    https://twitter.com/TradeWpower/status/1076456163271692288

    Cautiously optimistic.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,666 ✭✭✭✭sryanbruen


    Well CFSv2 continues to show the SSW event occurring (and possibly a split) with the signal becoming stronger for -NAO.

    https://twitter.com/SimonLeeWx/status/1076486230425174018


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭Artane2002


    The ECM is showing a split again. The GFS and GFS Para aren't showing it. This Mexican standoff is getting really tiring at this stage... fingers crossed that the ECM humiliates the GFS/GFS(P)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,958 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    Artane2002 wrote: »
    The ECM is showing a split again. The GFS and GFS Para aren't showing it. This Mexican standoff is getting really tiring at this stage... fingers crossed that the ECM humiliates the GFS/GFS(P)

    I would love to be able see the glosea5 model at this time. I have read that the ECM is more reliable when it comes to events in the stratosphere thread. They are probably in meltdown over on Netweather due to the latest GFS run.


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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,467 Mod ✭✭✭✭mickger844posts


    I would always rather have the ECM on side in this type of scenario. GFS can be a bit baffling at times with its outcomes. A SSW very much ON at this stage.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,666 ✭✭✭✭sryanbruen


    Still lots of flips and flops and model disagreement.

    https://twitter.com/jhomenuk/status/1076893495896522752


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,666 ✭✭✭✭sryanbruen




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,666 ✭✭✭✭sryanbruen


    Hope everybody had a wonderful Christmas, I certainly did.

    An exercise I decided to do this morning (after taking a break yesterday) was looking at my Winter analogue years and see which years had a SSW in them. The years in the analogue were 1941-42, 1963-64, 1979-80, 1994-95, 1996-97, 2010-11, 1901-02, 1940-41, 1968-69, 1987-88, 1995-96, 2001-02, 2008-09 and 1990-91.

    Stratospheric records only go back to the 1950s so can disregard the 1940s years and 1901-02. The years with a SSW were 1979-80 (Feb), 2001-02 (Dec/Jan), 2008-09 (Jan), 1968-69 (Nov/Mar). Only 1 of these was a split - January 2009. Reanalysis of Jan and Feb below.

    January shows some high latitude blocking especially over Greenland with a trough centred in the Atlantic. Not a classic chart to delivering cold to the UK and Ireland but possibility of some cold snaps. The blocking would need to be stronger or more extensive for severe cold. Nearly a battleground scenario between the Atlantic and the blocking.

    0U39ZW7.png

    February is quite similar but different positioning. The blocking is more over to North America giving a very cold month for them but the placement of the below average heights look favourable for cold too in the UK/Ireland. Keep in mind, February 1969 is likely skewing this.

    jAy89xz.png

    If we were to break this down further and consider ENSO, well 2008-09 was weak La Nina so can count that out. 2001-02 was ENSO neutral so can leave that aside. 1968-69 and 1979-80 were both El Nino events, the former moderate whilst the latter weak.

    1968-69 became severely cold in February with some really heavy snowfalls after a mild January due to a western based -NAO. 1979-80 had a fairly chilly January but was otherwise mild with a very wet December for some.

    Keep in mind, this is an experimental exercise. Both years had different SSW events to what is likely to evolve now. 1968-69 had the displacement in November and March - also the Canadian Warming in November whilst 1979-80 had the displacement in February.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,666 ✭✭✭✭sryanbruen


    Zonal winds at 60N 10hPa set to reverse in a few days now according to the GEFS displacing the vortex away from the pole (wave 1) which is currently in progress, have some reasonable agreement now on it occurring. After this initial reversion, the zonal winds go a bit above 0 m/s (reversions are very short events) but the GFS predicts a second warming (wave 2) to occur which could reverse the zonal winds a second time much like last February though amplification not as intense as February and I do not expect them to reverse again currently. This wave 2 is looking like a split according to GFS and ECM.

    Rmc2K34.png

    https://twitter.com/Forecas55175638/status/1078257392746401792

    Here's a very recent blog post by Simon Lee that I'd recommend you to read showing that not all SSW events are equal in impact/evolution and some very useful information too on this current warming.

    https://simonleewx.com/2018/12/27/not-all-ssws-were-created-equal/


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,666 ✭✭✭✭sryanbruen




  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,431 ✭✭✭Mortelaro


    A daughter vortex by the way slipping south into and then from Scandinavia is exactly what you need to replicate Nov Dec 2010,was that a cold one ??
    Needs to head south though not south east,the dynamics should favour it heading south or southwest?
    But we do not and cannot know until maybe the end of next week when more strat affect options appear
    None will be right,rules of FI will still apply but there should be better pointers than now if you get me?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,666 ✭✭✭✭sryanbruen


    The zonal winds at 60N 10hPa are set to reverse in just two days away and there continues to be a signal for a succeeding warming occurring which will reverse the zonal winds again and more dramatically by current guidance. This is likely to involve a split of the Polar Vortex.

    0d12LYC.png

    https://twitter.com/Forecas55175638/status/1079027467539677184


  • Registered Users Posts: 721 ✭✭✭Defaulter1831


    sryanbruen wrote: »
    The zonal winds at 60N 10hPa are set to reverse in just two days away and there continues to be a signal for a succeeding warming occurring which will reverse the zonal winds again and more dramatically by current guidance. This is likely to involve a split of the Polar Vortex.

    0d12LYC.png

    https://twitter.com/Forecas55175638/status/1079027467539677184

    Thanks Sryan :) My daffodill flower heads are 7 inches above the ground! Best get some winter in winter or if not we'll have serious growth of srubbery etc and a late cold spell will burn the lush growth. Like after Feb and March 1998 and the frosts around 10th April and the Good Friday agreement, -5C in parts, burnt shrubs, foliage etc an horrendous brown/black.

    I have only one word 'Hurray!!'.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,666 ✭✭✭✭sryanbruen




  • Registered Users Posts: 603 ✭✭✭Captain Snow


    Slightly higher then expected. :)

    1zva8m9.jpg


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,666 ✭✭✭✭sryanbruen


    Split is likely to involve the PV split into three daughter vortices based on the latest guidance.

    https://twitter.com/judah47/status/1079363351677976576

    More good signs.

    https://twitter.com/judah47/status/1079364827355717632


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    @Sryan, I'm not sure if I'm reading these charts correctly, but this graphic would seem to imply a split of the entire vortex from top to bottom by Jan 6th:

    geos_nh-vort3d_20181228_f216_rot000.png

    Or are these charts confined exclusively to the strat? It's difficult to tell based on the scale used just how far down the modelling goes into the troposphere.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Gaoth Laidir


    @Sryan, I'm not sure if I'm reading these charts correctly, but this graphic would seem to imply a split of the entire vortex from top to bottom by Jan 6th:

    geos_nh-vort3d_20181228_f216_rot000.png

    Or are these charts confined exclusively to the strat? It's difficult to tell based on the scale used just how far down the modelling goes into the troposphere.

    It goes to the surface but extends to around 37 km (1200 K potential temperature). For reference, 400 K is 15 km and 800 K is 30 km.


  • Registered Users Posts: 603 ✭✭✭Captain Snow


    Who knew SSW would be the new Model Watching cause frankly Model Watching mess,s with your sanity.....:p


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,234 ✭✭✭sdanseo


    Who knew SSW would be the new Model Watching cause frankly Model Watching mess,s with your sanity.....:p

    If anything with me it's caused model ignorance. Or maybe that was Christmas.

    Still not interested in any model output until w/c 7th, will start looking at it in earnest then.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,666 ✭✭✭✭sryanbruen


    So 29th December was the peak for the warming at 10hPa, we now wait and see how it will fare at 30hPa.

    v6gYPCm.gif

    6z6QpsD.gif


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,666 ✭✭✭✭sryanbruen




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,187 ✭✭✭mikeecho


    Be kind.

    Complete noob / idiot here.

    What will this stratospheric warming have in store for us.

    And how long before we know if it's gonna cause freezing temps. (Not even gonna ask about snow)

    This forum was invaluable to me this year, I was able to look like a complete idiot buying salt / grit and a snow shovel, getting the oil tank filled, warning friends and family, and getting laughed at.

    Who had the last laugh.. use boardsies


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,234 ✭✭✭sdanseo


    mikeecho wrote: »
    Be kind.

    Complete noob / idiot here.

    What will this stratospheric warming have in store for us.

    And how long before we know if it's gonna cause freezing temps. (Not even gonna ask about snow)

    This forum was invaluable to me this year, I was able to look like a complete idiot buying salt / grit and a snow shovel, getting the oil tank filled, warning friends and family, and getting laughed at.

    Who had the last laugh.. use boardsies

    I actually remember you saying similar last year. Wasn't it you who got strange looks in Argos buying the shovel? (To be fair, probably more than just you if so :pac: )

    Unfortunately the honest answer for another week or so is

    how-long-is-a-piece-of-string.jpg

    My gut says we will get a cold blast, probably longer in duration than Emma but not as severe. Based on other posters commenting that had last year's event happened in January it may have become more embedded.

    By not as severe I mean meteorologically. 1cm of snow every day for a month, for example, will cripple Ireland. We don't prepare even with now 3 major events in less than a decade. (cue videos of Garda cars going sideways, gangs of lads having to push a fire engine and an Ambulance with snow socks)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,187 ✭✭✭mikeecho


    It was me in Argos, getting stupid looks,

    I walked across the car park with a snow shovel, while the local hard men were wearing t shirts


  • Registered Users Posts: 603 ✭✭✭Captain Snow


    Brief Summary:

    Sudden Stratospheric Warming underway, mid/late January could see some serious winter weather across a large part of Europe.....

    http://www.severe-weather.eu/long-range-2/sudden-stratospheric-warming-underway/


    The mid-stratosphere temperature over the pole is more than 65 °C warmer than in a normally strong polar vortex situation.

    20p38cj.png


    The strong ridging over the pole in combination with the warming will be strong enough to break down (split) the polar vortex in half, with the stronger half remaining over the European sector and the smaller vortex over North America.

    2i20ao8.png


    Looking at the NOAA/CPC analysis, the whole process has begun around a week ago and is slowly progressing from the stratosphere down into the troposphere. That is what we want to see, the progression and impact from the stratosphere down into the troposphere.

    15foyae.png


    We can expect to see colder air move into Europe in the next 2-3 weeks, with more proper winter weather and even snow for eastern and central Europe, that could continue into February.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,666 ✭✭✭✭sryanbruen


    This is nearly an official SSW, mean zonal wind speed at 60N 10hPa is currently at 0 m/s.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,666 ✭✭✭✭sryanbruen




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,958 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    orthographic=-0.27,86.88,205


    Dv1wkMyUwAA4_0w.jpg



    Amy H Butler @DrAHButler

    😁 65 of 65 ensemble members with splits by Jan 3 (wind reversal should occur before then).


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