Stuck on a grandfather I never knew, suggestions as to where to go from here?

VonVix · 10-12-2017 10:54am #1

He died somewhere around 1979 in Dublin and born somewhere around 1930, most likely in or around Dublin as well. I knew his wife's full name and have been able to trace her family, but I can't find any marriage record on any of the regular ancestry-type websites.

He supposedly was buried in Glasnevin Cemetery, but I contacted them and there is no record around the time of his birth/death. I know the name of their two children, one of them is my mother but she knows as little as I know, as she hardly saw him, plus her parents separated when she was a teenager.

Any ideas where to go from here or what I should try and search? I have full Ancestry membership as well.

spurious · 10-12-2017 11:12am

If they were married pre-1958 there should be a record on Familysearch. You could then order the cert.
https://www.familysearch.org/search/collection/1408347

Hermy · 10-12-2017 11:14am

Assuming the marriage took place in Ireland, images of civil marriage records are available at irishgenealogy.ie up about 1941 and indexes of civil marriage records are available at FamilySearch.org up to 1958. If the marriage took place after 1958 then you would need to go toh the GRO in Werburgh Street in Dublin.

Have you checked newspapers or will calendars for other info re his death?

Also, if you'd like to provide a name maybe others could check and see what they can see.

VonVix · 10-12-2017 11:27am

spurious wrote: »

If they were married pre-1958 there should be a record on Familysearch. You could then order the cert.
https://www.familysearch.org/search/collection/1408347

I can find some under both their names individually, but I can't see any spouse name so I'm not even sure they're the right ones or not.

My mother was born in 1958 and her brother is a bit older, so I'd assume they were married before then, because from what I have been told my grandmother was a staunch Catholic, the idea of even moving in with a man unmarried was sinful.

Hermy wrote: »

Assuming the marriage took place in Ireland, images of civil marriage records are available at irishgenealogy.ie up about 1941 and indexes of civil marriage records are available at FamilySearch.org up to 1958. If the marriage took place after 1958 then you would need to go toh the GRO in Werburgh Street in Dublin.

Have you checked newspapers or will calendars for other info re his death?

Also, if you'd like to provide a name maybe others could check and see what they can see.

I have only been doing online research as I'm quite consumed with work, but thank you very much.

I could provide a name no problem, just not sure if it's ok or not in this forum as he only died around 1979.

Hermy · 10-12-2017 11:33am

I think there's only an issue for the forum with naming names of living individuals.

So if you'd like to give more details fire ahead.

VonVix wrote: »

I can find some under both their names individually, but I can't see any spouse name so I'm not even sure they're the right ones or not.

In those indexes spouses surnames are not provided unfortunately. What you need to do is try and match up the quarter [Jan-Mar, Apr-Jun, Jul-Sep, Oct-Dec] page and volume number for the entries with the right forenames and surnames and one of those will likely be yours.

VonVix · 10-12-2017 11:39am

Oh grand. His name was Brendan O'Neill, his wife was Anna Phelan. As far as I know, he was from Dublin, but there are Northern Irish links somewhere. They it would have been married in either Dublin, Wicklow or Kildare.

Its been bugging me for years, but I end up just giving up on the whole family tree thing until I come back to it months later... then I end up giving up again because I just can't break through this wall. Both of my grandfather's were sticky to deal with, but Boards helped me a LOT with my other one.

spurious · 10-12-2017 11:39am

VonVix wrote: »

I can find some under both their names individually, but I can't see any spouse name so I'm not even sure they're the right ones or not.

In that case, I will usually take a note of the page and volume numbers to see do they match up for both of the names I am looking for and then order those that do.

VonVix · 10-12-2017 11:41am

spurious wrote: »

In that case, I will usually take a note of the page and volume numbers to see do they match up for both of the names I am looking for and then order those that do.

Oh! :eek: I didn't realise that was a thing. Thanks! I'll check it out.

Hermy · 10-12-2017 11:48am

What is your source for his approximate year of death?

VonVix · 10-12-2017 11:51am

Hermy wrote: »

In those indexes spouses surnames are not provided unfortunately. What you need to do is try and match up the quarter [Jan-Mar, Apr-Jun, Jul-Sep, Oct-Dec] page and volume number for the entries with the right forenames and surnames and one of those will likely be yours.

Just had a look again, nothing is matching up so far.

Hermy wrote: »

What is your source for his approximate year of death?

My mother. She has always told me 1979, though it could be '78.

Hermy · 10-12-2017 11:56am

VonVix wrote: »

Just had a look again, nothing is matching up so far.

Same here.

I can see why you've been so frustrated with this - given they're relatively recent events they should be easier to pin down.

VonVix · 10-12-2017 11:59am

Hermy wrote: »

Same here.

I can see why you've been so frustrated with this - given they're relatively recent events they should be easier to pin down.

Part of me is doubting that's even his name since he's so shrouded in mystery. Maybe it would be an idea to try and get my mother's birth certificate?

Hermy · 10-12-2017 12:01pm

VonVix wrote: »

Part of me is doubting that's even his name since he's so shrouded in mystery. Maybe it would be an idea to try and get my mother's birth certificate?

They always say start with what you know and use it to find out more so it may be the thing to do to start with your mother and go from there.

VonVix · 10-12-2017 12:08pm

Hermy wrote: »

They always say start with what you know and use it to find out more so it may be the thing to do to start with your mother and go from there.

She's estranged from her family so details are limited as well as documents. Is it possible to obtain a birth certificate if the father's name is unknown, hypothetically speaking, if his name happens to be different?

Also, on FamilySearch, one of the marriage records I found for Anna is a possibility given year + location, how do I find more information?

Hermy · 10-12-2017 12:11pm

VonVix wrote: »

She's estranged from her family so details are limited as well as documents. Is it possible to obtain a birth certificate if the father's name is unknown, hypothetically speaking, if his name happens to be different?

Your mothers name and date of birth, and her mothers maiden name, should be more than sufficient to track down her birth record.

pinkypinky · 10-12-2017 12:18pm

Your mother's birth index reference will be on familysearch since she was born in 1958. Her mother's birth surname will be in the index so that will pin it down for you.

You can order the copy register cert from the GRO, either by going into their Reading Room on Werburgh St in Dublin (business hours Mon-Fri only) or by fax/post using this form. The cost is €4 either way. That will confirm her father's exact name and address at time of birth.

I wouldn't be ordering any marriage certs (using the same form above) until you're 100% sure of her father's name.

When you have him, you can also look at the electoral registers in Pearse St library up to 1964 to see if you can establish where he lived then.

VonVix · 10-12-2017 12:29pm

pinkypinky wrote: »

Your mother's birth index reference will be on familysearch since she was born in 1958. Her mother's birth surname will be in the index so that will pin it down for you.

You know what's odd, is that she's not. There's only one person listed with her full name born in '55 but the mother's maiden name is completely different.

You guys might be on to something unexpected here. Or is she not listed because she's alive? Lol.

Edit: Scratch the above, for some reason it's listing a lot more than just one record now.

But thank you for all the extra information to use going forward.

spurious · 10-12-2017 12:34pm

Remember to search for the 'Female Phelan' entries, where the child had not been named at the time of registration.

Hermy · 10-12-2017 12:53pm

Also, she may have been born in '58 but registered some time later.

Leeside · 10-12-2017 6:04pm

Could this be worth considering from familysearch. The details aren't exactly what you're looking for but it might be worth checking if by any chance your Grandfather used John also as a first name.

Name Annie C Phelan
Event Type Marriage
Event Date Jul - Sep 1957
Event Place Dublin South, Ireland
Registration Quarter and Year Jul - Sep 1957
Registration District Dublin South
Volume Number 2
Page Number 1197

From find mypast:

Annie C Phelan married one of these people
Peter G O'Carroll, John O'Neill, Oneill J O'Beirne

VonVix · 10-12-2017 8:50pm

So I did a little digging on Ancestry, using some of the records I could find that may be a match on Family Search and I found this...

Could his name actually be Brendan Spain...? :eek: If there wasn't an Andrew O'Neill on this record as well, I'd be nearly shaking my head and thinking, nah, can't be the same Brendan... But then I find another search that shows Phelan is his mother's last name. I swear, I'm going in circles!

pinkypinky · 10-12-2017 9:04pm

Seriously: find your mother's birth cert first. That will tell you her father's name. Then go back to looking for their marriage.

If you want to pm your mother's name and place of birth, I will help you pin it down.

VonVix · 10-12-2017 9:15pm

pinkypinky wrote: »

Seriously: find your mother's birth cert first. That will tell you her father's name. Then go back to looking for their marriage.

If you want to pm your mother's name and place of birth, I will help you pin it down.

I have ordered one through the HSE website, so fingers crossed. I have tried looking up herself and her brother's names, but they are appearing nowhere.

It's just that Anna Phelan is the only solid link I have to go on so far, so I'm trying everything lol.

Stuck on a grandfather I never knew, suggestions as to where to go from here?

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