Is "Irish" an ethnicity?

coinop · 14-12-2019 7:02pm #1

Are there DNA markers that can identify an Irish person that are not present in other human populations?

BDI · 14-12-2019 7:04pm

Being Irish is a feeling you have when you hear Luke Kelly say “shining stee eeel tempered in the fire” during dirty old town.

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy · 14-12-2019 7:08pm

Fcuking right there are. Steaming hot Lyons/Barry’s tea pumping around our arteries, intestines blocked up from years of spud munching and our ginger hair jutting out at all angles.

coinop · 14-12-2019 7:12pm

Funny...it's almost like the Irish are trying to mask their insecurities about their invented ethnic heritage with feeble attempts at humour.

14-12-2019 7:14pm

BDI wrote: »

Being Irish is a feeling you have when you hear Luke Kelly say “shining stee eeel tempered in the fire” during dirty old town.

Always funny given it's written by an English guy about the Lancashire town they were born in.

IAMAMORON · 14-12-2019 7:15pm

Awewight Paddy

jam_mac_jam · 14-12-2019 7:17pm

No. There are no genetic markers for any ethnicity, there are certain genetic markers that are common to people or you are more likely to have from a certain area but no particular genetic markers. Ethnicity is more cultural then scientific.

14-12-2019 7:18pm

An interesting second post.

BDI · 14-12-2019 7:20pm

coinop wrote: »

Funny...it's almost like the Irish are trying to mask their insecurities about their invented ethnic heritage with feeble attempts at humour.

I’m actually French and trying to mask my Frenchness with hilarious jokes like the awesome Irish people always have .

14-12-2019 7:22pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

An interesting second post.

Dropping the hint early alright.

biko · 14-12-2019 7:22pm

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/abroad/irish-dna-atlas-maps-genes-of-the-people-of-ireland-1.3331369

The study has discovered that before the mass migration of people in recent decades,
there were at least 10 distinct genetic clusters across the country,
roughly aligned with the ancient provinces or kingdoms of Ireland.

hatrickpatrick · 14-12-2019 7:26pm

I heard many years ago (and thus this could be BS, can't remember the source or specifics) that surviving the famine left a long lasting imprint on the DNA of many Irish families, including one or two which can actually pose health risks - would I be correct in saying that genetic adaptations which occurred during the famine can lead to a relatively rare condition in which the body upregulates iron storage and puts people with an otherwise normal diet at risk of issues caused by excessive dietary iron?

GalwayGrrrrrl · 14-12-2019 7:29pm

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I heard many years ago (and thus this could be BS, can't remember the source or specifics) that surviving the famine left a long lasting imprint on the DNA of many Irish families, including one or two which can actually pose health risks - would I be correct in saying that genetic adaptations which occurred during the famine can lead to a relatively rare condition in which the body upregulates iron storage and puts people with an otherwise normal diet at risk of issues caused by excessive dietary iron?

There is definitely an increased incidence of haemochrimatosis in the west of Ireland (the blood/iron disorder you referred to). Not sure if it’s related to the famine though

14-12-2019 7:31pm

coinop wrote: »

Funny...it's almost like the Irish are trying to mask their insecurities about their invented ethnic heritage with feeble attempts at humour.

What do you call a traveller with a clock? A time bandit.

GalwayGrrrrrl · 14-12-2019 7:32pm

Thesis in NUI Galway library
“A description of general practitioner involvement in the diagnosis, management and treatment of patients with hereditary haemochromatosis in County Galway, Ireland
Donal. Daly National University of Ireland, Galway. Faculty of Medicine. Department of General Practice.
Thesis (M.Med.Sc.): National University of Ireland, Galway, 2001. (Minor). 2001”

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 14-12-2019 7:40pm

Ethnicity has nothing to do with genetics.
An ethnic group is clearly defined as a category of people who identify with each other on the basis of a presumed common genealogy or ancestry or on similarities such as common language or dialect, history, society, culture or nation.

Irish is an internationally recognise Ethnic group.

coinop · 14-12-2019 7:51pm

But "Irish culture" was only invented in the late 19th century when the Gaelic league came up with gaelic football. The Irish we're taught in schools is dumbed down muck that is nothing like the original authentic Irish. Riverdance is from 1994 ffs. Our whole culture is a lie.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 14-12-2019 7:59pm

coinop wrote: »

But "Irish culture" was only invented in the late 19th century when the Gaelic league came up with gaelic football. The Irish we're taught in schools is dumbed down muck that is nothing like the original authentic Irish. Riverdance is from 1994 ffs. Our whole culture is a lie.

You're (possibly deliberately) missing the point. Your initial setting of ethnicity in the realm of genetic was properly shown as a misassumption. You now latch on to culture, which is also not the defining factor in ethnicity. Culture includes, but is not exclusive to, language, literature, music, art, folklore, cuisine, and sport. The Irish had a unique culture long before the 19th century. In addition culture does not have to be ancient anyway.

Mrs OBumble · 14-12-2019 8:02pm

coinop wrote: »

Are there DNA markers that can identify an Irish person that are not present in other human populations?

Irish is an ethnicity.

But it is not a race, which is what could be shown with genetic markers.

Lord Fairlord · 14-12-2019 8:04pm

Yes there is such a thing as an Irish ethnicity. The latest archaeological thinking from when I was in university was that there was no mass migration of Celts to Ireland. A relatively small number came bringing their culture to the people already here. In other words, at least in the Republic, the majority of people are descended from the people who arrived on this island in the early days, despite Vikings, Normans etc.

There's this idea that Irish and British DNA is basically the same, however there isn't a huge difference in DNA across humanity. Small differences in DNA can result in noticeable material differences.

One can even see in many people's facial structure a distinct Irish look, differing from the English who have a significant amount of Germanic blood in them from the Jutes, Angles and Saxons.

coinop · 14-12-2019 8:04pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Irish is an ethnicity.

But it is not a race, which is what could be shown with genetic markers.

Ah ok thanks. Close thread.

Quantum Erasure · 14-12-2019 8:08pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Irish is an ethnicity.

But it is not a race, which is what could be shown with genetic markers.

what is a race?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 14-12-2019 8:08pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Irish is an ethnicity.

But it is not a race, which is what could be shown with genetic markers.

Precisely.

The definitions of race and ethnicity are related to biological and sociological factors respectively. Race refers to a person's physical characteristics, such as bone structure and skin, hair, or eye colour, (which usually result from genetic ancestry). Ethnicity, however, refers to cultural factors, including nationality, regional culture, ancestry, and language.

Wibbs · 14-12-2019 8:26pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

But it is not a race, which is what could be shown with genetic markers.

Even then it's not nearly so clear and the definition is broad. Take Black Africans as an example. Africa is the most genetically diverse place on the planet and you could have two Africans who look well African living a hundred miles apart who are less related than someone White from Sweden and someone from Italy. You also have different ancient human DNA going on. EG Europeans will have some Neandertal DNA in their mix, Asians will have both Neandertal, Denisovan and possibly Erectus DNA in theirs. Africans will have none of the above, because we only encountered those earlier peoples when we left Africa(though there is some evidence within Africans for the presence of older African human DNA)

There are more differences between modern human populations(race is outdated a descriptor though the populations roughly overlap with them) in physical traits, which of course has a genetic component. If a pathologist for example is presented with a skull they can tell whether it's likely European, Asian or African with a fair degree of accuracy. Teeth can show differences, as can other skeletal structures. Obviously this will be less pronounced in regions of overlap and intermarriage.

Could we tell if someone was Irish from their genetics? In a broad sense yes. There would be markers for pale skin, western European ancestry, less influx of DNA from mainland Europe(running from east to west in Ireland), so you could have a stab at giving a general area. This is a very simplified and not particularly accurate map and only looks at one set of markers, but you get the idea.

And you may note tends to follow old imperial movements and borders.

myshirt · 14-12-2019 8:37pm

I spoke to an academic about 15 years ago who told me (albeit over a few pints) that anyone who knows their family have been in Ireland for at least 4 generations, that that person more than likely 75%+ DNA descended from the Celts over 1,000+ years ago.

Vikings, Normans, English plantations, etc etc had limited to no impact (comparatively) on ethnic Irish populations. Of all the places Anglo Saxons conquered, Ireland was always the biggest thorn in their arse. They were most successful in the North (and the in the Pale obviously), and the least successful in Munster, particularly Cork.

Compare this to a conversation I had with a chap in the ERSI last year. North Inner city Dublin in less than 30% Irish in less than 8 years!

IAMAMORON · 14-12-2019 8:53pm

coinop wrote: »

But "Irish culture" was only invented in the late 19th century when the Gaelic league came up with gaelic football. The Irish we're taught in schools is dumbed down muck that is nothing like the original authentic Irish. Riverdance is from 1994 ffs. Our whole culture is a lie.

I like your style Coin op, please elaborate, I like this line of thinking.

John Doe1 · 14-12-2019 9:05pm

Irish people are a mixture of "Native Irish" DNA (which likely originated in Spain millennia ago), Scandinavian DNA (From Vikings and Normans) and Anglo Saxon DNA (from Plantations)

I got my 23 and Me DNA test and Irish, Scots and Welsh are very closely linked and therefore grouped together.

The main bulk of the average DNA profile has not changed since about the 16th century so you can definitely make a claim that Irish is indeed an ethnicity incorporating all the above elements. No nation has one a completely homogenous DNA profile.

Unfortunately some people use the fact that DNA is so mixed to make it seem like we should we should invite the whole 3rd world (with the associated issues relating to different ideology and treatment of women/children etc.) into our small homogenous population where immigration has only occured in any real way since the late 90s. This is completely unsustainable....

RobMc59 · 14-12-2019 9:14pm

DubInMeath wrote: »

Always funny given it's written by an English guy about the Lancashire town they were born in.

Kirsty McColls dad

coinop · 14-12-2019 9:16pm

John Doe1 wrote: »

Unfortunately some people use the fact that DNA is so mixed to make it seem like we should we should invite the whole 3rd world (with the associated issues relating to different ideology and treatment of women/children etc.) into our small homogenous population where immigration has only occured in any real way since the late 90s. This is completely unsustainable....

Wow it didn't take long for the far-right extremists to hijack the thread. Only a racist would think Ireland belongs to the Irish. HE WHO LIVES HERE, BELONGS HERE. Refugees welcome. From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free.

beejee · 14-12-2019 9:24pm

coinop wrote: »

Wow it didn't take long for the far-right extremists to hijack the thread. Only a racist would think Ireland belongs to the Irish. HE WHO LIVES HERE, BELONGS HERE. Refugees welcome. From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free.

I'll be round your gaf tonight to help myself to whatever takes my fancy.

Get in my way and you'll see what happens

Coinops house for only coinop? Not a chance ye madman

Yester · 14-12-2019 9:26pm

I have a genetic marker and a colourful past.

Bobblehats · 14-12-2019 9:27pm

coinop wrote: »

Only a racist would think Ireland belongs to the Irish.

Alright I’m stumped here. What’s the catch

beejee · 14-12-2019 9:31pm

Bobblehats wrote: »

Alright I’m stumped here. What’s the catch

No catch.

You got an Irish passport last week? Sure, you're as Irish as the blarney stone now.

Ipso · 14-12-2019 9:33pm

John Doe1 wrote: »

Irish people are a mixture of "Native Irish" DNA (which likely originated in Spain millennia ago), Scandinavian DNA (From Vikings and Normans) and Anglo Saxon DNA (from Plantations)

I got my 23 and Me DNA test and Irish, Scots and Welsh are very closely linked and therefore grouped together.

The main bulk of the average DNA profile has not changed since about the 16th century so you can definitely make a claim that Irish is indeed an ethnicity incorporating all the above elements. No nation has one a completely homogenous DNA profile.

Unfortunately some people use the fact that DNA is so mixed to make it seem like we should we should invite the whole 3rd world (with the associated issues relating to different ideology and treatment of women/children etc.) into our small homogenous population where immigration has only occured in any real way since the late 90s. This is completely unsustainable....

Irish DNA didn’t originate in Spain. It’s a mix of people who were around after the Ice Age, then the people who descended from the first farmers and the people who spread indo european languages (Bell Beakers are a good candidate for these), the descendants of these people also left a high Y DNA rate in modern Spain.
Irish people are genetically closest to British. Most Europeans are descended from these three population groups, they just got different amounts at different times.
Then you have the more historical attested migrations from Britan.

Bobblehats · 14-12-2019 9:33pm

beejee wrote: »

No catch.

You got an Irish passport last week? Sure, you're as Irish as the blarney stone now.

hhhah..haha.....hahahaaaaah....

John Doe1 · 14-12-2019 9:35pm

coinop wrote: »

Wow it didn't take long for the far-right extremists to hijack the thread. Only a racist would think Ireland belongs to the Irish. HE WHO LIVES HERE, BELONGS HERE. Refugees welcome. From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free.

5 posts, you are obviously a troll.

10 years ago when I was a naive college liberal, i would have said yes, bring all them in but no, we have enough problems with homelessness, the rental crisis and the uncetainty over Brexit to worry about spending tax money on housing people who may be geniunely escaping hardship or may just be economic migrants.

beejee · 14-12-2019 9:36pm

Bobblehats wrote: »

hhhah..haha.....hahahaaaaah....

I know...

And so do most.

Bobblehats · 14-12-2019 9:40pm

Well stripped down, we’re all the same skeleton.

Which is morbid. And discriminating against those with skeletal deficiencies

Wibbs · 14-12-2019 9:46pm

myshirt wrote: »

I spoke to an academic about 15 years ago who told me (albeit over a few pints) that anyone who knows their family have been in Ireland for at least 4 generations, that that person more than likely 75%+ DNA descended from the Celts over 1,000+ years ago.

Well.... Nope. Not "Celts" anyway. Celts/Keltoi were a generic term in the Classical world for a range of people beyond the borders. "Not us" in essence, though not quite barbarians for the most part, unless there was a war on. They weren't too exact on their location either. The Greeks were bloody geniuses at many things, maps and a sense of direction not exactly being one. Up north, over there being much of it. The Irish were "Scotti", which could also mean Scottish(hence the name of the country "Eriugenia(sp)" was sometimes added to narrow it down to born in Ireland itself.

Celtic culture is another thing, but even here there were quite the range of peoples in the mix and some differences in art and culture too. Whatever "Celtic" made it here was almost exclusively cultural in art, religion and the like. We're certainly not related to the Keltoi the Romans would have gone around fighting and trading with.

coinop wrote: »

Only a racist would think Ireland belongs to the Irish. HE WHO LIVES HERE, BELONGS HERE.

1) if one were to object to say 20,000 Welsh showing up how would that be "racist"? 2) We fought a long struggle of independence to drive out those who decided to live here and it didn't belong to them did it? They were the same "race" too, was that "racist"? Or is it only "racist" if we object to scammers of a darker hue showing up? I note that "diversity" seems to only go one way and tends to also follow skin colour. More dark people in a European country is "diverse" and very much required, yet more pale people in an African country... well, not so much and often seen as objectionable by the same mindset.

beejee wrote: »

You got an Irish passport last week? Sure, you're as Irish as the blarney stone now.

How dare you suggest otherwise. I have noted among people from Russia, Spain, France, Slovakia, even a couple of Afghans that have lived here for donkey's years, most of those married Irish people, yet if you ask them what they are they will, to a man and woman reply with Russian, Spanish, French, Slovakian and Afghani and that's fine. Yet Africans are expected to be and some, not all(and fair play to them) claim to be Irish when the ink on their Irish passport is still wet. How does that work then?

andekwarhola · 14-12-2019 9:56pm

If stealing catalytic converters is a ethnic trait, anything can be.

Bobblehats · 14-12-2019 10:02pm

Gumballs

MyPeopleDrankTheSoup · 14-12-2019 10:09pm

you don't have to look up the gate at foreign airports, just follow the lad with the big 'ol irish head on him. he's easy to discern, ipso facto we're a separate ethnicity

JohnnyFlash · 14-12-2019 10:21pm

Do you have ginger pubes and hemochromatosis?

Quantum Erasure · 14-12-2019 10:28pm

RTE Sports Personality of the Year on now, be surprised if they don't give it to Sunita Puspure, ticks all the boxes

Wibbs · 14-12-2019 10:35pm

MyPeopleDrankTheSoup wrote: »

you don't have to look up the gate at foreign airports, just follow the lad with the big 'ol irish head on him. he's easy to discern, ipso facto we're a separate ethnicity

God we are easy to spot at the airports of the world alright.

I was in a European airport once with an ex who wasn't Irish and she was getting a bit panicked because we arrived late(as I tend to) and she was worried we'd never find our queue/gate back to Ireland.

Me.

Is "Irish" an ethnicity?

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