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Learning to drive

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  • 15-09-2020 9:24pm
    #1
    LegacyUser
    Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭


    I've have had difficulty getting work and after receiving feedback from a job application that the reason I didn't get the job was because I didn't have my own transport, I decided it was about time that I started to learn how to drive.

    I started learning just over a year ago, after I finished my 12 lessons I couldnt get a sponsor so was unable to practice my driving.
    To try and compensate for this I continued to get lessons every week which was amounting to hundreds of euro's, I could no longer afford to keep doing this. I also felt that although the lessons are great for teaching the basics they were no longer helping me as I knew how to drive, it was practice that I needed.

    Both my parents have cars and over the years I asked them to help me learn but was always told no, asking them to be a sponsored driver was a last resort but I felt I had no choice as I knew no one else to ask.
    Initially they adamantly said no but I eventually talked them around and got insured on one of their cars a month ago, in total the insurance is costing me about 600 euro. As im not working im currently trying to pay for this out of my social welfare by putting 100 away a week.

    Since getting insured on their car and trying to get practice it's caused nothing but stress, I am getting out driving for 20 - 30 minutes a week at the very most, some weeks I cant get out at all. We drive around a local housing estate or country road.

    When I practice driving with my dad, he shouts abuse at me while im driving, curses at me, criticizes everything I do and stresses me out so much that ive had full on panic attacks when driving. I had to pull over one time as I was hyperventilating because he was screaming at me so much, im a nervous driver to begin with.

    Im by no means a perfect driver but ive never been close to crashing or causing any damage to the car and I always drive under the speed limit.
    It's a hazard having him beside me as he's distracting and causes me to panic, even when he's not shouting at me im nervous beside him as im constantly worrying about how he's going to react and if he's going to explode again over something small like not changing gears quick enough.

    My mother is calmer when driving with her but she gets annoyed when I ask her to go for drive, I hate asking her to do anything because it's always a problem no matter what it is that I ask but in this circumstance I feel I have no other choice. I try to pick my time wisely before asking her, I give her about 3 hours after she comes home from work and never ask when she's in the middle of doing something but the more im asking her, the more tension is building as she's fed up of being asked. In the last month she's come out driving with me about 3 times for 15/20 minutes each time.

    Im just frustrated as ive spent well over 1000 euro on driving lessons and insurance but cant improve to test standard as I cant get out to practice enough.
    I dont know what to do? I need to learn to drive but it's causing tension at home and I have no one else to I can ask to sponsor to me, I cant drive on my own as it's not legal.


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    #2
    Knine
    Registered Users Posts: 3,761 ✭✭✭Knine


    You need to start saving towards getting yourself your own little runaround starter car. We all had to do it to get started & my own daughter will be the same when she wants to start driving. My car is not the sort you would be giving someone to learn to drive in & maybe your parents feel the same about their cars.


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    #3
    LegacyUser
    Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    Knine wrote: »
    You need to start saving towards getting yourself your own little runaround starter car. We all had to do it to get started & my own daughter will be the same when she wants to start driving. My car is not the sort you would be giving someone to learn to drive in & maybe your parents feel the same about their cars.

    Thanks for replying.
    The problem is not the car, I cant legally drive on a provisional without a full licence driver so regardless of if I have my own car, I still wont have anyone to practice with.

    Also, ive priced this and with a provisional licence it will cost 3K for insurance + another few thousand for the car and tax. Its an awful lot to pay for a car that I legally wont be able to drive.


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    #4
    newboard
    Registered Users Posts: 225 ✭✭newboard


    Some people are just temperamental and have next to no patience. They should be glad to support you and your efforts to improve your situation. The fact that it's not just when out in the car, but you also have to tippy toe around your parents and try and gauge their mood to figure out when is best to ask them for a small favour suggests it's not just the stress of the situation but kinda just who they are?

    If you've nobody else to ask to help, maybe you just need to bear it until you get enough experience. You'll slowly get better and hopefully they'll chill out a bit.

    You could also calmly say when you sit in the car, that could they please not point out every little mistake because it makes it way harder and you're worried you'll crash (make it more about the cost/safety factors rather than how their behaviour affects you emotionally). They might just make the effort to not be awful to you.

    Best of luck.


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    #5
    freshpopcorn
    Registered Users Posts: 30,186 ✭✭✭✭freshpopcorn


    Some parents, relatives are just a nervous, shouty when they are accompanying somebody learning to drive. Clearly your dad is one of these people. (Even driving instructors can be) Some people just grin and bear this.
    How does your instructor feel your getting on and what issues were you having?
    Could you do a test and see how that goes or even a pre test with an instructor?
    Can you ask a friend or a relative who has a license long enough?(Try and think outside of the box)
    They’ve insured you on there car which means there is some trust there.
    I’d talk to your Mam and try and make a plan about time that suits her a few days in advance and see how that goes.
    I’m not sure what type of car it is but people learn to drive in Micra’s and others in large Saloon/Estate cars. So, don’t focus to much on the size of the car.
    If you are to get a car of your own. Your first insurance policy will be expensive even with a full license at times and you’ve to just save for it and lots of places allow you pay in installments.
    When I learning to drive I found there wasn’t a massive difference in insuring a 1.0 liter car and a 1.4. Which opened up options to me of a wider selection of cars but do your research and it wan't that long ago.


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    #6
    LegacyUser
    Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    newboard wrote: »
    Some people are just temperamental and have next to no patience. They should be glad to support you and your efforts to improve your situation. The fact that it's not just when out in the car, but you also have to tippy toe around your parents and try and gauge their mood to figure out when is best to ask them for a small favour suggests it's not just the stress of the situation but kinda just who they are?

    If you've nobody else to ask to help, maybe you just need to bear it until you get enough experience. You'll slowly get better and hopefully they'll chill out a bit.

    You could also calmly say when you sit in the car, that could they please not point out every little mistake because it makes it way harder and you're worried you'll crash (make it more about the cost/safety factors rather than how their behaviour affects you emotionally). They might just make the effort to not be awful to you.

    Best of luck.

    Yes it is just who they are, I have asked him calmly many times to please not shout and curse at me when im driving as it makes me too nervous, for a short time he did stop this and even gave me a complement in my driving but it was short lived and he went back to shouting. Several times ive refused to drive with him because of his behaviour but end up going back out with him as ive no other options to get practice.

    When he starts shouting I tell him to stop but he just continues. Theres been a number of occasions were I have had to pull over or stop in the middle of the road and tell him to take over the driving as I could no longer keep going, I was fearful I would crash the car because of his anger.

    When I drive with him I am a worse driver, when I drive with my mother after having a bad drive with him, my driving is worse than before practicing with him. His anger and criticism gets into my head and effects my confidence and anxiety levels and I make mistakes that I wouldnt normally make. It's like I go into a state of panic and my head just goes blank.
    He makes me feel that im incapable of doing anything and I shouldn't even try.

    None of it matters, neither of them will change their ways but it makes it harder to bear it until I get enough experience as they knock my confidence so much. Im a worse driver after practicing with them.

    I knew that depending on them to help me learn was going to be difficult but I never imagined it would be this hard.


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    #7
    LegacyUser
    Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    freshpopcorn wrote: »
    Some parents, relatives are just a nervous, shouty when they are accompanying somebody learning to drive. Clearly your dad is one of these people. (Even driving instructors can be) Some people just grin and bear this.
    How does your instructor feel your getting on and what issues were you having?
    Could you do a test and see how that goes or even a pre test with an instructor?
    Can you ask a friend or a relative who has a license long enough?(Try and think outside of the box)
    They’ve insured you on there car which means there is some trust there.
    I’d talk to your Mam and try and make a plan about time that suits her a few days in advance and see how that goes.
    I’m not sure what type of car it is but people learn to drive in Micra’s and others in large Saloon/Estate cars. So, don’t focus to much on the size of the car.
    If you are to get a car of your own. Your first insurance policy will be expensive even with a full license at times and you’ve to just save for it and lots of places allow you pay in installments.
    When I learning to drive I found there wasn’t a massive difference in insuring a 1.0 liter car and a 1.4. Which opened up options to me of a wider selection of cars but do your research and it wan't that long ago.

    Thanks Freshpopcorn,
    Yes I have thought about options outside of my parents but I dont have anybody else I could ask.
    My extended family is small, only 2 relatives live in the same town as me and only one of them drives, im not at all close to her and none of my siblings drive.

    As for friends, I have considered this, two of them drive but theres only so many times I can ask a friend to come drive with me, theyre not available regularly to help me practice.

    Im nowhere near ready to take a test or a pre test, ive only been driving unassisted by a driving instructor for a month and have had very little practice in that time. My driving instructor thinks I am improving but agrees that I need more practice.

    Im not worried about the size of the car and I will get a car when I can but for now my focus is on practice and gaining confidence on the road until I can invest in my own car. My hope was that I could get a car after I get my full licence as I wouldnt need a full licence driver with me then but this is looking less likely to work out as I had planned.

    I wonder if there are any services available in which learner drivers can pay someone to be a sponsor? Ive not seen or heard of such a thing but it would be great if it existed.


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    #8
    Blush_01
    Registered Users Posts: 5,016 ✭✭✭Blush_01


    I don't know, OP, you don't need to drive with the same person each time, so if friends could help even once a week then surely once a week with two different people would be a big improvement? You're looking for 30-45 minutes driving, not a full day, as you'll be wrecked after that if you're a learner, and if you got that in, it'd improve your confidence to make driving with one or both parents easier.

    Maybe you need to do a bit of work on your mindset too?


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    #9
    Sardonicat
    Registered Users Posts: 12,378 ✭✭✭✭Sardonicat


    Knine wrote: »
    You need to start saving towards getting yourself your own little runaround starter car. We all had to do it to get started & my own daughter will be the same when she wants to start driving. My car is not the sort you would be giving someone to learn to drive in & maybe your parents feel the same about their cars.

    She still needs a qualified driver at all times with her when she's driving. What good is shelling out for the car, tax and insurance if no one will sit in it with her? I have no idea what you mean about your car not being the sort to teach someone to drive in. Is it not road worthy? Or do you think it's too precious?


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    #10
    HildaOgdenx
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,461 Mod ✭✭✭✭HildaOgdenx


    Blush_01 wrote: »
    I don't know, OP, you don't need to drive with the same person each time, so if friends could help even once a week then surely once a week with two different people would be a big improvement? You're looking for 30-45 minutes driving, not a full day, as you'll be wrecked after that if you're a learner, and if you got that in, it'd improve your confidence to make driving with one or both parents easier.

    Maybe you need to do a bit of work on your mindset too?

    I agree with this.

    Unfortunately, driving with your dad is just destroying your confidence.
    If you could get your mother, and a friend to take turns with you, every second week, it would be better.
    I hope you can get something sorted. Best of luck.


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    #11
    FTA69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    I learned to drive at 31 and it was a massive hassle for me as well. Learning to drive as an older adult I think is harder and a bit of a longer process at the best of times; it’s a stressful experience no doubt. I had a great instructor (after two previous fails in London) and managed to pass. I then didn’t drive again for a year and felt like I was back to square one. Luckily my partner had a car and we took a few trips and I managed to build up my confidence and last week we were in Ireland and I was sipping around Derry and Donegal with no problems. Learning to drive is daunting and many times I convinced myself that “driving isn’t for me” etc. I remember crapping myself on my first solo trip to Asda! However it does click and when it does it’s a great feeing.

    It’s clear your parents aren’t the people you should be practicing with. It’s unfortunate they’re not more supportive but continuing to practice with them will set you back, not help you. It’ll honestly just wreck your progress and put you off driving entirely.

    Can you ring around friends? When I was learning I had a friend who’d do a couple of hours with me once a week and then I’d buy them dinner afterwards, or else on a Saturday afternoon arrange an activity with a mate where you drive there and you shout them a few drinks afterward?

    Alternatively you might have to save a bit and see if you can get more lessons with a view to passing the test, by the sounds of it you’re not a million miles off being test ready as they say? Once you’ve passed then you’ll be free to drive on your own and can build up your confidence gradually?

    It seems arduous I know, but you’ll get there in the end.

    EDIT: sorry I just read your other post about not being test ready and not wanting to impose on your friends. By the sounds of it you might have to just keep doing lessons as and when you can and turning it into a longer process.


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    #12
    Hannibal_Smith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,932 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hannibal_Smith


    OP my dad is one of the best teachers I know. I have watched and listened and learned so much from him. But the one thing I could never do, was drive with him when I was learning. My nerves were gone. His nerves were gone. My mam doesn't drive, so I took lessons in my own car. The instructor used to meet me at my house and we'd leave together in my car. I'm not sure whether instructors still do that, or whether you'd want to go to that expense?

    Alternatively, if spontaneously asking your mum is a bit daunting, could you make an arrangement of picking one night a week where you both go out together? So you both know in advance that day?


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    #13
    Humour Me
    Registered Users Posts: 360 ✭✭Humour Me


    How long are your lessons with your driving instructor OP? I started learning to drive in my 30’s and while I started with one hour a week, I really improved when I changed it to 2 hour blocks. My instructor would spend the first hour practicing hill starts, reverse around the corner etc, but the second hour would just be driving around, getting used to moving in traffic and getting comfortable in the car, rather than getting test ready.

    I understand your pain, I learned to drive in dublin and had very little practice outside of lessons, as I didn’t have access to a car in dublin and didn’t get home to use my parents car very often. You have put a lot of money into this but it will be worth it.

    Call your instructor and agree a plan to get you test ready. Book a test date and use that as a deadline with your instructor. Don’t get into the car with your Dad anymore, it will wreck your confidence and agree a schedule with your mam. If she wants to go to the shops, offer to drive her, 20 mins practice is better than nothing.

    You will pass and get your license eventually, and the hassle now will be worth it.


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    #14
    freshpopcorn
    Registered Users Posts: 30,186 ✭✭✭✭freshpopcorn


    Learnerdriver12345 wrote: »

    Im nowhere near ready to take a test or a pre test, ive only been driving unassisted by a driving instructor for a month and have had very little practice in that time. My driving instructor thinks I am improving but agrees that I need more practice.
    I wonder if there are any services available in which learner drivers can pay someone to be a sponsor? Ive not seen or heard of such a thing but it would be great if it existed.

    Ok OP,
    The reason why I recommenced the pre test was because it will help you get focused on your faults so you’ll know your issues and what you’ve to work towards. If you were to do it do it in your instructors car so they could help you out if needed.
    I suppose you could look for sponsors online but that would just be more money you’d be shelling out. I think I heard of somebody looking for a sponsor before but they were well able to pay for them.


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    #15
    LegacyUser
    Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    freshpopcorn wrote: »
    Ok OP,
    The reason why I recommenced the pre test was because it will help you get focused on your faults so you’ll know your issues and what you’ve to work towards. If you were to do it do it in your instructors car so they could help you out if needed.
    I suppose you could look for sponsors online but that would just be more money you’d be shelling out. I think I heard of somebody looking for a sponsor before but they were well able to pay for them.

    Thanks, yes I see what you mean, I hope to book a pre test soon but for now im far too nervous driving and just need a bit of practice to build my confidence. I know where my faults are when driving and the driving instructor provides feedback each week.
    To over come these faults I need the practice.


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    #16
    Knine
    Registered Users Posts: 3,761 ✭✭✭Knine


    Sardonicat wrote: »
    She still needs a qualified driver at all times with her when she's driving. What good is shelling out for the car, tax and insurance if no one will sit in it with her? I have no idea what you mean about your car not being the sort to teach someone to drive in. Is it not road worthy? Or do you think it's too precious?

    My car is 2 months old. You don't learn to drive in a new car. There are several other people insured to drive it but no way would I be giving it to a learner driver!

    When I was a learner I brought a well used cheap runaround to practice in. I found people were much happier accompanying me in it rather than a newer or their own car.


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    #17
    freshpopcorn
    Registered Users Posts: 30,186 ✭✭✭✭freshpopcorn


    Knine wrote: »
    My car is 2 months old. You don't learn to drive in a new car. There are several other people insured to drive it but no way would I be giving it to a learner driver!

    When I was a learner I brought a well used cheap runaround to practice in. I found people were much happier accompanying me in it rather than a newer or their own car.

    Well in the OP cases the parents insured there kid on their insurance and their car so this isn’t an issue for the OP.
    His/Her issue seems to be the father shouting and the mother not wanting to do it and being busy.


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    #18
    freshpopcorn
    Registered Users Posts: 30,186 ✭✭✭✭freshpopcorn


    Learnerdriver12345 wrote: »
    Thanks, yes I see what you mean, I hope to book a pre test soon but for now im far too nervous driving and just need a bit of practice to build my confidence. I know where my faults are when driving and the driving instructor provides feedback each week.
    To over come these faults I need the practice.

    Yes I understand this.
    I know a lot of instructors and once you get going they essentially do pre tests with you get you into the habit of tests routes.
    Could you ask your dad to keep and note of your errors and try and not talk unless he was giving you directions?


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    #19
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    Honestly, book a test. You won’t have to do it for months and it will give you something to work towards. You have friends who drive, can you explain to them that your parents make you very nervous and would they mind sitting with you once a week and you’ll bring them for coffee or to do their shopping. That way you’re not putting them out, you’re having a friendly day out or giving them a lift.


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    #20
    yenom
    Registered Users Posts: 659 ✭✭✭yenom


    It sounds like you'd be best doing your test in an automatic car and then come back in a year or two and give manual another go.


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    #21
    I am me123
    Registered Users Posts: 1,165 ✭✭✭I am me123


    Sorry to hijack the thread.
    In a similar position. Been trying ( and failing to learn to drive since 2018..
    Been through three driving instructors already with very little success.
    Only just acquired myself a little runaround car for practice. I feel if maybe I had more intense daily practice maybe things would improve re driving. Before I could go approx 2 or even three weeks without being behind the wheel in between lessons, then it was like starting from 0 all over again. I think my main problem is being overwhelmed & frightened behind the wheel. I find steering straight to be a huge problem. One instructor even suggested I drive an automatic.
    I can relate OP.


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    #22
    LegacyUser
    Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    Thank you everyone for the helpful replies, I very much appreciate you taking the time.
    This thread has given me lots to think about and I think I will bite the bullet and book a test within the next week. Theres such a backlog it will be next year by the time I do it anyway and if I feel im not ready when the time comes, I can always reschedule but it gives me something to work towards so definitely worth booking.

    As for getting my own car, the insurance on my mothers car has already gone through so at the minute I cant afford to take out insurance on another car + the cost of buying a car and all the other costs that go along with it which I priced as working out at about 8 - 10K.

    It was suggested that I buy an old cheap car but as a first time driver I wont be able to get insurance on a car thats over 10 years old and the older and cheaper the car, the more expensive the insurance so either way buying a starter car on the cheap isnt an option. Ive gotten insurance quotes of up to 6.5K, the cheapest I came across was 3k and thats with a small 1.2 ltr relatively new second hand car from 2016 up. The car itself cost 4k.

    It's just not a feasible option right now unfortunately but hopefully by Christmas I can start thinking about it.

    Regarding my parents, theres no talking to them, no matter what I say it makes no difference. Theres no hope of scheduling days or times with my mother, she will still get stroppy when the time comes to go out for a drive. Although, offering to drive to the shop etc is an excellent idea, I have never drove on town roads without my driving instructor - im just so nervous - but it might be about time I started.

    @I am me123 I completely relate, I am overwhelmed and frightened behind the wheel too, the only way to overcome those nerves is to practice but being unable to get practice its a bit of a catch 22 so to speak.


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    #23
    ILoveYourVibes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,176 ✭✭✭✭ILoveYourVibes


    Knine wrote: »
    You need to start saving towards getting yourself your own little runaround starter car. We all had to do it to get started & my own daughter will be the same when she wants to start driving. My car is not the sort you would be giving someone to learn to drive in & maybe your parents feel the same about their cars.
    the issue isn't the car ...he needs a driver with a license to go around with him.


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    #24
    ILoveYourVibes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,176 ✭✭✭✭ILoveYourVibes


    yenom wrote: »
    It sounds like you'd be best doing your test in an automatic car and then come back in a year or two and give manual another go.
    but what is the point of this?

    Is he going to buy an automatic car? probably not they are more expensive and rare here ..is an automatic driving license going to help with a job ..probably not


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    #25
    ILoveYourVibes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,176 ✭✭✭✭ILoveYourVibes


    could you get a friend to help? Boyfriend/ girlfriend? sibling?

    could you ask your parents when they want to go somewhere and offer to drive them?

    Other than that well you just have to make do with what you have ...it will take a bit longer but you will still get there.


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    #26
    Knine
    Registered Users Posts: 3,761 ✭✭✭Knine


    ILoveYourVibes wrote: »
    the issue isn't the car ...he needs a driver with a license to go around with him.

    I know but he/she is more likely to get someone else to help out if they are using their own car, I think the parents are not too willing by the sound of things so they need to look elsewhere.

    Also a couple of 1 hour pre tests might be a good option.


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    #27
    cruizer101
    Registered Users Posts: 3,205 ✭✭✭cruizer101


    I think you need to try pre-arrange with you mam. So say every Tuesday evening and Sunday morning or something like that. Even twice a week is enough to progress, the more the better obviously but I think that would be enough to make progress.

    Also does your mam drive many places during the week that you could tag along. Eg going to the shop. Even if it is only 5 min trip worth getting out.

    From the sounds of your Dad you are probably best not going out with him at all, maybe in a while as you get better but maybe not at all. He sounds like even when you get full license still not best person to have in car with you.

    I would definitely ask your friends, they may seem hesitant but part of that can be they may be nervous themselves about taking you out. Suggest going to a quiet car park the first time so they have chance to get comfortable with it.

    As far as I know you technically can't pay someone to be your sponsor as as soon as you pay them to be in the car with you they are now giving a lesson and so have to be an ADI. There was a debate on here about it before.

    You could maybe find someone to volunteer, I'm sure there probably are some retired people who would be happy to help the problem is finding them. Also that may not work currently with covid.


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    #28
    freshpopcorn
    Registered Users Posts: 30,186 ✭✭✭✭freshpopcorn


    Knine wrote: »
    I know but he/she is more likely to get someone else to help out if they are using their own car, I think the parents are not too willing by the sound of things so they need to look elsewhere.

    Also a couple of 1 hour pre tests might be a good option.

    They’ve put him on there insurance on their car. Some parents do trust their kid with their car when they are learning to drive. I’d say about 80% of my friends learnt to drive the family car when which was often worth 30k or more.
    The OP seems to have no relatives/friends nearby to help them going by from what they said.
    The OPs issue is a common one. His father is a Shouty parent when he’s accompanying him/her and the OP finds this hard to cope with this.


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    #29
    MissShihTzu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,080 ✭✭✭MissShihTzu


    I learned to drive in London where I'm from. I did my lessons and test without a car - i just went with the instructor's car, and did my test in the same. Didn't get any input from my father who was a professional driver (PSV/HGV) as I would never have got anywhere - he had no patience!

    I will also tell you although I've had a full licence for over 30 years, my Dad was NEVER comfortable with me driving, even though I am a very safe driver! :D

    It's not necessary to buy a car to practice in, and I wouldn't kill myself trying to buy one if I'm not working or earning much. Neither would I ask my parents any more, since it doesn't turn out well. Save your money for the lessons which is far more important. If you're not happy with your instructor, get another that you're comfortable with. That's the best, safest and legal way to drive, especially as you're nervous.

    Good luck! :)


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    #30
    antix80
    Registered Users Posts: 2,419 ✭✭✭antix80


    You should have bitten the bullet and done the test.

    If i were you I'd have cut the apron strings and moved where the work was rather than saddling yourself with the expense of a car you can't even drive.
    Don't blame your parents for this. It's your bad decision.
    I suggest selling the car and moving out of home

    Edit: just copped it's probably not your car. How long have you been out of work . Surely transport isn't the only reason. Loads of people don't drive


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    #31
    ILoveYourVibes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,176 ✭✭✭✭ILoveYourVibes


    Knine wrote: »
    I know but he/she is more likely to get someone else to help out if they are using their own car, I think the parents are not too willing by the sound of things so they need to look elsewhere.

    Also a couple of 1 hour pre tests might be a good option.
    I don't think so. Maybe ...but insurance on his own car as a lone driver right now ..would he even get it and it would be brutal!


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