Turbo Training for base miles

mistermatthew · 26-01-2019 5:47pm #1

I am doing tour of flanders this year (April 6th). I have ridden this distance before (200km) in other events, however it was normally later in the year when I have had plenty of miles in the legs on the road.

However as Flanders is early in the year, my time on the road will be limited to weekends and this may be cut short by weather (snow, heavy rain etc.). For example, today I had to do 2hrs on the turbo as it was horrendous out (I live in the WHest).

What I am wondering is. Am i losing out a lot doing a structured 2 hr turbo session as opposed to 5hrs on the road? And is it possible to train for a 7hr road ride using primarily turbo sessions only, which would be between 1-2hrs.

I'm just wondering by missing a lot of long 'base miles' will I suffer in the long run? Obviously I want to avoid 4hr sessions on the turbo.

Does anyone have any turbo sessions recommendations to replace base miles training?

Miklos · 26-01-2019 6:19pm

Platforms like TrainerRoad have plans for people in your situation, I don't know have you had a look at them? There is an growing school of thought advocating shorter time at higher intensity, especially around sweet-spot.

Have a look at this and see for yourself. I used TrainerRoad myself over the winter last year building up to the racing season and it certainly gave me enough of a base to get a few results. That said I've gone back to a more old-school approach this year so we'll see how that goes.

dahat · 26-01-2019 6:30pm

TrainerRoad is perfect for your needs. There is no need for anything more than 90min sessions with a weekend long spin if you can manage it.

mistermatthew · 26-01-2019 6:42pm

dahat wrote: »

TrainerRoad is perfect for your needs. There is no need for anything more than 90min sessions with a weekend long spin if you can manage it.

Yeah that is what I am doing. But if I miss a weekend long spin should I be replacing with 3-4hrs on the turbo, or are there shorter sessions that can replicate this? That's kind of what I'm trying to understand.

Beasty · 26-01-2019 6:54pm

You will typically be doing more in a shorter turbo session than you can on the road precisely because it is more structured, with less temptation to freewheel/ease up when the pressure is off

I did the WW200 back in 2009 3 weeks after a knee operation, with those last 3 weeks on the turbo. I was doing 3 hour sessions in the end, but would not have the heart/commitment to do that sort of length nowadays

dahat · 26-01-2019 7:09pm

mistermatthew wrote: »

Yeah that is what I am doing. But if I miss a weekend long spin should I be replacing with 3-4hrs on the turbo, or are there shorter sessions that can replicate this? That's kind of what I'm trying to understand.

My opinion would be 3-4 hrs far too long on a turbo for your needs. 90-, 120,mins with some zone 3 intervals would suffice. Do a mixed interval spin, cadence drills, Z3, 10 sec sprints etc and the 90mins will fly by.

mistermatthew · 26-01-2019 8:12pm

Beasty wrote: »

You will typically be doing more in a shorter turbo session than you can on the road precisely because it is more structured, with less temptation to freewheel/ease up when the pressure is off

I did the WW200 back in 2009 3 weeks after a knee operation, with those last 3 weeks on the turbo. I was doing 3 hour sessions in the end, but would not have the heart/commitment to do that sort of length nowadays

Did you feel the 3hr sessions were necessary, or could a shorter turbo session replace this?

For example, I did a 2hr session today and legs feel like i did 4hrs on the road. I'm just wondering what is the best turbo sessions for longer distance riding?

I have raced before off turbo training and it was fine, but these were less than 1hr races. So not comparable to 6-7hrs in the saddle.

Beasty · 26-01-2019 8:34pm

I had not done that sort of distance for 10 years or so. I didn't have much of an idea how to prepare. However I was using the Tacx VR which helped pass the time

The point I would make though is that if it's 200km you are going to be spending 8+ hours in the saddle. Ideally you should be doing at least one spin of something approaching this length beforehand. I did not have that opportunity back in 2009, and probably needed those 3 hour sessions in my legs

Generally though I would agree that 2 hours on the turbo feels like it needs as much effort as 4 hours on the road. I don't think that 1:2 ratio is valid when it comes to endurance though. I think there is still a significant premium for turbo time though

One thing you could think about might be doing 2 hour sessions in quick succession - either 2 in a day or on consecutive days. You'll probably feel it more in the second session, so maybe do a bit longer or a bit harder in the first one

With these tours you will get stops, but that risks tightening up if you stop for too long. The longer you can do on the turbo at a steady pace the stronger you will be for the tour. If you can do a 5-6 hour road spin a couple of weeks before and then tick over on the turbo I think that would stand you in good stead

Macy0161 · 26-01-2019 10:34pm

Trainer road have "century" plans. Generally the weekend work outs are 1.5 hours, threshold or over unders.

I followed their mid volume plan after my crash in the lead up to the dying cow audax. While I got through, I'd still have preferred a few long outdoor rides, but if it's just subbing out bad weather weekends I think you'll be fine. You can either extend cool down to get longer sessions, pick a "plus" version of the workout, or swap for another workout.

I'm doing liege this year, so although it's obviously a few weeks later I had no qualms staying inside today. I'm on a recovery week - I wanted longer so I just picked a longer workout at the same intensity.

Lumen · 27-01-2019 7:03am

Maybe do the sessions fasted.

mistermatthew · 27-01-2019 11:27am

Thanks for all the advice guys. Much appreciated.

mistermatthew · 27-01-2019 11:33am

Macy0161 wrote: »

I'm doing liege this year, so although it's obviously a few weeks later I had no qualms staying inside today. I'm on a recovery week - I wanted longer so I just picked a longer workout at the same intensity.

I was originally to do liege. But I have a wedding that weekend. Hope the trainings going well. Nice bit of climbing in liege

Danville · 28-01-2019 2:38pm

mistermatthew wrote: »

I was originally to do liege. But I have a wedding that weekend. Hope the trainings going well. Nice bit of climbing in liege

Tell her you’ll marry her the weekend after Liege!

jhenno78 · 28-01-2019 7:14pm

I honestly haven't a clue why anyone would use something like TrainerRoad when you could sit there with Netflix on.

No reason you can't get as much structure from having a plan and a timer/HRM on your phone.

Macy0161 · 28-01-2019 7:36pm

TrainerRoad gives me the plans to follow, the test protocol, the calendar functions, and erg mode.

Each to their own, but before I had trainer road, I was trying to go to club turbo sessions or follow written plans. No comparison for me.

DirkVoodoo · 29-01-2019 12:46am

No one else thinks there is extreme irony in training for one of the toughest challenges like Flanders indoors because you don't like the weather outside?

Personally, I find these things about 50/50 mental/physical. Getting out and doing a session in really testing and miserable conditions will prepare you for anything you might encounter in Belgium.

Nothing will stop you from thinking you can't quite get up the next hill or over the next sector like the memory of those hard winter miles.

Maybe I'm old fashioned, but trainerroad won't prepare you for that.

Macy0161 · 29-01-2019 10:14am

Or it could make you sick. For me, I had (still have) a cold bubbling under, and if I went with the club it wouldn't be the aerobic relatively low intensity of a recovery week. My first year or two cycling I was overkeen, and dug myself into a few holes health wise going out in shít conditions when I wasn't really well - it's only January, time enough to push through the weather imho out of flu season in February and March.

The other advantage of TR is the mid week sessions on the plans - on the low volume plans they're two, "Tuesday" for an hour, "Thursday" generally 1:15.

dastardly00 · 29-01-2019 10:42am

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

No one else thinks there is extreme irony in training for one of the toughest challenges like Flanders indoors because you don't like the weather outside?

Personally, I find these things about 50/50 mental/physical. Getting out and doing a session in really testing and miserable conditions will prepare you for anything you might encounter in Belgium.

Nothing will stop you from thinking you can't quite get up the next hill or over the next sector like the memory of those hard winter miles.

Maybe I'm old fashioned, but trainerroad won't prepare you for that.

I agree that training soley indoors is not the best approach but this is not what the OP is doing. He's still trying to get outside at the weekend.

I did the Paris-Roubaix Challenge last year and my initial approach was to train solely outdoors for it. I didn't have a turbo and I was of the mentality that the crap Galway winter weather would prepare me in the best possible way. Along came the snowy weather and I quickly realised that if I kept cycling outside I would either have an accident or end up getting pretty sick. Either way my training would be affected. I bought a turbo, did a couple of sessions midweek and then got out for a spin at the weekend.

I'm doing Flanders this year and my approach is the same. For the last couple of months I have been using Trainer Road and also doing some hill repeats outside at the weekend. Over the next while whenever there is a decent weekend I aim to get out for some long solo spins.

lizzylad84 · 29-01-2019 11:40am

I'm doing Flanders this yr and done Paris roubaix last year. During the ****e weather, I regularly done 2hr turbo sessions when I couldn't get out on the road.
I hour low hr, half hour specific intervill session and half hour spinning the kegs. I found this to be great for building power and really found it beneficial.

If you need any advice drop me a pm

mistermatthew · 29-01-2019 7:20pm

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

No one else thinks there is extreme irony in training for one of the toughest challenges like Flanders indoors because you don't like the weather outside?

Personally, I find these things about 50/50 mental/physical. Getting out and doing a session in really testing and miserable conditions will prepare you for anything you might encounter in Belgium.

Nothing will stop you from thinking you can't quite get up the next hill or over the next sector like the memory of those hard winter miles.

Maybe I'm old fashioned, but trainerroad won't prepare you for that.

When you're working during the week, it is dark when you get home and training outdoors presents difficulties.

I will be out at the weekend when possible. However crashing in ice an snow won't help with my preparation.

AmberGold · 29-01-2019 7:59pm

jhenno78 wrote: »

I honestly haven't a clue why anyone would use something like TrainerRoad when you could sit there with Netflix on.

You can minimise TR and watch Netflix at the same time! Halfway thru Sweetspot Base myself, having used it now on and off for many years it's well worth it. I've used Zwift as well and for some reason, pairing up sensors never seems as easy as with TR.

Old Rudge · 29-01-2019 9:32pm

mistermatthew wrote: »

When you're working during the week, it is dark when you get home and training outdoors presents difficulties.

I will be out at the weekend when possible. However crashing in ice an snow won't help with my preparation.

Fitness is just one thing you will need to enjoy something like Flanders.
. How is your technique for riding ramps, on narrow cobbled streets surrounded by hundreds of unknown ejits?
. Can you get up a 20% ramp seated so rear wheel doesn't skid on wet cobbles
. Can you handle cobbles at speed

Personally I'd give up cycling if I had to do any indoors, we spend enough time inside, but it doesn't bother some people.

2hrs outside on a winter's night can be a magical thing,but its not for most it seems.

If lads are getting sick from a spin in the rain, a look at the rest of your lifestyle to boost your immune system might be in orderðŸ˜€

dastardly00 · 29-01-2019 10:46pm

Old Rudge wrote: »

Fitness is just one thing you will need to enjoy something like Flanders.
. How is your technique for riding ramps, on narrow cobbled streets surrounded by hundreds of unknown ejits?
. Can you get up a 20% ramp seated so rear wheel doesn't skid on wet cobbles
. Can you handle cobbles at speed

What's your point?

That those of us doing the sportive should fly over for a recon to practice on the cobbles before the main event?? :pac:

Old Rudge · 29-01-2019 11:12pm

dastardly00 wrote: »

What's your point?
That those of us doing the sportive should fly over for a recon to practice on the cobbles before the main event?? :pac:

Practice. Steep. Ramps. Seated

Macy0161 · 30-01-2019 9:51am

Old Rudge wrote: »

Practice. Steep. Ramps. Seated

That's the one out of the three you could do inside (and in Ireland) on the turbo.

Old Rudge · 30-01-2019 11:31am

Macy0161 wrote: »

That's the one out of the three you could do inside (and in Ireland) on the turbo.

So you can replicate wet cobbles on a turbo now. Interesting. Tell us more.

Practice or there will be more of this

"Started the climb to the mast... the road was very wet and anytime I attempted to get out of the saddle the back tyre would lose grip."

You have control over having good climbing technique, none on the behaviour of the 100's of other riders in close proximity.

Riding on cobbles isn't an option but again you can learn techniques for that to; probably better on the road although the Mr Woodhouse's might have a different take for fear they catch cold

Miklos · 30-01-2019 11:41am

Old Rudge wrote: »

So you can replicate wet cobbles on a turbo now. Interesting. Tell us more.

Practice or there will be more of this

"Started the climb to the mast... the road was very wet and anytime I attempted to get out of the saddle the back tyre would lose grip."

You have control over having good climbing technique, none on the behaviour of the 100's of other riders in close proximity.

Riding on cobbles isn't an option but again you can learn techniques for that to; probably better on the road although the Mr Woodhouse's might have a different take for fear they catch cold

I'm going out on a limb here but I feel you may not have joined Boards.ie to make friends have you?

Macy0161 · 30-01-2019 11:50am

Seated high power low cadence work is perfectly doable on the turbo, especially if a smart turbo with erg mode.

If you can tell me the cobbled climbs (or even significant stretches of cobbled flat roads) with hundreds of other cyclists where people might practice steep cobbled climbs with hundreds of others might help rather than just throwing it out there?

The OP has already said they plan to ride outdoors anyway, it was never put as either/or!

mistermatthew · 30-01-2019 8:54pm

Macy0161 wrote: »

Seated high power low cadence work is perfectly doable on the turbo, especially if a smart turbo with erg mode.

If you can tell me the cobbled climbs (or even significant stretches of cobbled flat roads) with hundreds of other cyclists where people might practice steep cobbled climbs with hundreds of others might help rather than just throwing it out there?

The OP has already said they plan to ride outdoors anyway, it was never put as either/or!

Yeah this has kind of gone off on a tangent. It was advice on plans to replace missed outdoor spins due to the weather (Such as today, when there was 6 inches of snow).

Anyways thanks for the input guys

Turbo Training for base miles

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