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Do speed limits change at junctions?

  • 19-11-2018 11:53am
    #1
    bigar
    Registered Users Posts: 596 ✭✭✭


    I was driving on Malahide Road (R107) down from Malahide to Dublin and can see there is a 60 km/h speed sign right after the junction with Swords Road. After the next junction (Back Road) there is no speed limit sign and there are none after any of the other junctions until you hit Clarehall.

    Would the speed limit change to 80 km/h (national speed limit on R Roads) after this junction? Drivers joining the road there would not be aware of the special speed limit because there are no speed signs.


Comments

  • #2
    Wishbone Ash
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,011 ✭✭✭✭Wishbone Ash


    bigar wrote: »
    .. Drivers joining the road there would not be aware of the special speed limit because there are no speed signs.
    Presumably there would be signs on their approach to the junction.


  • #3
    Victor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,490 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Most of the outer sections of the Malahide Road and surrounding roads are 60 km/h.

    This map is reasonably accurate: http://product.itoworld.com/map/124?lon=-6.15119&lat=53.42962&zoom=13&open_sidebar=map_key&fullscreen=true


  • #4
    bigar
    Registered Users Posts: 596 ✭✭✭bigar


    Victor wrote: »
    Most of the outer sections of the Malahide Road and surrounding roads are 60 km/h.

    This map is reasonably accurate: http://product.itoworld.com/map/124?lon=-6.15119&lat=53.42962&zoom=13&open_sidebar=map_key&fullscreen=true

    Interesting website, thank you.

    I am still wondering how you are supposed to know this on the road. I for one believe the speed is actually 80 as there are no speed limit signs telling me otherwise.


  • #5
    Cuddlesworth
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,997 ✭✭✭✭Cuddlesworth


    bigar wrote: »
    Interesting website, thank you.

    I am still wondering how you are supposed to know this on the road. I for one believe the speed is actually 80 as there are no speed limit signs telling me otherwise.

    The last sign you saw was 60. You assume its 60 from there on, unless told otherwise.


  • #6
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,181 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    where's the junction with the swords road, on the R107?


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  • #7
    bigar
    Registered Users Posts: 596 ✭✭✭bigar


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    where's the junction with the swords road, on the R107?

    That one is just when you leave Malahide. Here is the location of the sign there: https://goo.gl/maps/HK45dV5XhEn


  • #8
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,181 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    ah - i was thinking of the Swords Road as being the one from drumcondra out past swords, the R132.


  • #9
    bigar
    Registered Users Posts: 596 ✭✭✭bigar


    Cuddlesworth wrote: »
    The last sign you saw was 60. You assume its 60 from there on, unless told otherwise.

    What if I would have come from Malahide Castle on the Back Road? There is no sign there. I may have spent a few hours there. How can someone be expected then to remember what the last speed sign was, which would have been on the other direction?


  • #10
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,181 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Cuddlesworth wrote: »
    The last sign you saw was 60. You assume its 60 from there on, unless told otherwise.
    this.


  • #11
    coylemj
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,491 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    There's supposed to be a speed limit sign every time the limit changes. This can give rise to totally ridiculous situations as I have highlighted here a few times, it's just outside the village of Dungeagan (near Ballinskelligs) in Kerry and right beside Noelle Cambell-Sharpe's artists' gallery. The village itself has a 50 kph limit but as soon as you are outside the village, it revert to 80 kph, even for this country boreen (and cul de sac) which is barely the width of a single car.

    Bear in mind that the N11 at UCD has three lanes for cars at the dip under the flyover where the limit is 60 kph and it's frequently policed .....

    https://goo.gl/maps/iPXWbDfC4942


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  • #12
    Isambard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,795 ✭✭✭Isambard


    bigar wrote: »
    What if I would have come from Malahide Castle on the Back Road? There is no sign there. I may have spent a few hours there. How can someone be expected then to remember what the last speed sign was, which would have been on the other direction?

    you can't assume it's 80, it could just as easily be 50.


  • #13
    Victor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,490 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    bigar wrote: »
    I am still wondering how you are supposed to know this on the road. I for one believe the speed is actually 80 as there are no speed limit signs telling me otherwise.
    The bye-laws say otherwise. I know, because I made the map.
    bigar wrote: »
    What if I would have come from Malahide Castle on the Back Road? There is no sign there.

    https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.4418933,-6.1585957,3a,37.5y,202.43h,86.3t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szNBjxiKzekKCbo6tnK4Oyg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


  • #14
    Alun
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,487 ✭✭✭✭Alun


    Victor wrote: »
    The bye-laws say otherwise. I know, because I made the map.
    Based on what data, by the way? Have noticed a few errors around my neck of the woods.


  • #15
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    Whereas at the western end of the Malahide road the limit increases to 80 at the junction with the r132
    https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.4541058,-6.2128208,3a,75y,278.54h,107.2t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sIVUkCvSWdNtPTIjbspqY9Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en


  • #16
    bigar
    Registered Users Posts: 596 ✭✭✭bigar


    Isambard wrote: »
    you can't assume it's 80, it could just as easily be 50.

    I believe I can as it is an R road where the 80 km/h applies if there are no signs telling me otherwise.

    Victor wrote: »
    The bye-laws say otherwise. I know, because I made the map.

    So you suggest I should know all bye-laws that could apply for every road I travel on?


    https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.4418933,-6.1585957,3a,37.5y,202.43h,86.3t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szNBjxiKzekKCbo6tnK4Oyg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

    That sign is not between the exit to Malahide Castle (main entrance) and the junction with Malahide Road, so I would not see it. Same as the one near Swords Road.

    Check it from here to Malahide Road: https://goo.gl/maps/aak4wrzsDoP2


  • #17
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    bigar wrote: »
    I believe I can as it is an R road where the 80 km/h applies if there are no signs telling me otherwise.

    https://goo.gl/maps/aak4wrzsDoP2

    Not all M Roads are 120. The limit is what's posted on signs, it's not determined by road type.


  • #18
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,181 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    bigar wrote: »
    I believe I can as it is an R road where the 80 km/h applies if there are no signs telling me otherwise.
    but you've posted a link to a sign which tells you otherwise.


  • #19
    highdef
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,324 ✭✭✭highdef


    bigar wrote: »
    I was driving on Malahide Road (R107) down from Malahide to Dublin and can see there is a 60 km/h speed sign right after the junction with Swords Road. After the next junction (Back Road) there is no speed limit sign and there are none after any of the other junctions until you hit Clarehall.

    Would the speed limit change to 80 km/h (national speed limit on R Roads) after this junction? Drivers joining the road there would not be aware of the special speed limit because there are no speed signs.

    As you are on the Malahide Road throughout, the previously posted speed limit of 60km/h applies at all times. As other's have said, there is only a change in limit if a sign dictates so, otherwise the limit seen at the preceding sign applies.

    The only issue where you could be unsure (in this case) is when travelling from Back Road to Malahide Road when you have entered the road after this sign - https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.4418933,-6.1585957,3a,75y,224.54h,88.09t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szNBjxiKzekKCbo6tnK4Oyg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 - If leaving Malahide Castle grounds, for example.

    A more definite case of being unsure of the speed limit is when approaching Baconstown, Co Meath, on the L6277. The L6277 has a 80km/h limit however when you reach the end of the road at a T junction on a bend, there are no signs to indicate a change in speed limit however on the main road (R159) there is a 50 km/h sign at both approaches to the townland. Now, if you are turning right from the L6277 to the R159 you will encounter a "children crossing" sign on the approach to the junction so at this point anyone with common sense will know there is a school ahead and therefore a 50 km/h limit applies (AFAIK, there is a default speed limit of 50 km/h in the vicinity of schools but please correct me if this is incorrect) however due to the lack of actual 50 speed limit sign, I'm unsure if there is legal issue here should someone be done for speeding in the 50 section, if the driver has come from the L6277. Below is the approach to the R159 on the L6277.

    https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.4423792,-6.8026744,3a,75y,326.91h,89.65t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sVU3cz4rK0JKAfSg_T79J_Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


  • #20
    GM228
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,922 ✭✭✭GM228


    bigar wrote: »
    I believe I can as it is an R road where the 80 km/h applies if there are no signs telling me otherwise.

    An automatic 80 km/h speed limit only applies to a non-urban regional road which is outside the limits of any city, town or borough.

    The default speed limit on any road (except a motorway) within the limits of any city, town or borough is 50 km/h unless prescribed otherwise as a "special speed limit" by local authority bye-laws.


  • #21
    Victor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,490 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    bigar wrote: »
    I believe I can as it is an R road where the 80 km/h applies if there are no signs telling me otherwise.
    No. You are mixing up Irish and UK rules. In the UK, the speed limits are 30mph urban and 60mph rural (motorways and dual carriageways are different), unless otherwise signed at a specified interval. This rule does not apply in Ireland.

    Regional roads having a default 80 km/h speed limit is something imposed on councils. Motorists have no entitlement to rely on these defaults. It is well known that council bye-laws (and ministerial regulations for certain vehicles) amend those defaults, especially in urban and semi-urban areas. Much of the Malahide Road is semi-urban and has speed limits applied via bye-laws.

    Motorists are required to obey the speed limit of the particular roads they are on. The signage on the roads is usually a good guide as to the speed limit (inadvertence, oversight and damage aside.


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  • #22
    Isambard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,795 ✭✭✭Isambard


    Victor wrote: »
    No. You are mixing up Irish and UK rules. In the UK, the speed limits are 30mph urban and 60mph rural (motorways and dual carriageways are different), unless otherwise signed at a specified interval. This rule does not apply in Ireland.

    Regional roads having a default 80 km/h speed limit is something imposed on councils. Motorists have no entitlement to rely on these defaults. It is well known that council bye-laws (and ministerial regulations for certain vehicles) amend those defaults, especially in urban and semi-urban areas. Much of the Malahide Road is semi-urban and has speed limits applied via bye-laws.

    Motorists are required to obey the speed limit of the particular roads they are on. The signage on the roads is usually a good guide as to the speed limit (inadvertence, oversight and damage aside.

    are you claiming that no signs is no excuse for breaking the by-law applied speed limit?


  • #23
    Victor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,490 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Isambard wrote: »
    are you claiming that no signs is no excuse for breaking the by-law applied speed limit?
    No, I said signs were a "good guide", they aren't perfect. Hence I mentioned the "inadvertence, oversight and damage aside" - with tends of thousands of signs out there, some are wrong. I know a section of mainline motorway that has an unsigned 50km/h speed limit for 100 metres, with 120km/h on either side.

    The default speed limits, as amended by bye-laws and regulations, are the law. If someone steals a sign, you can still be prosecuted.


  • #24
    GM228
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,922 ✭✭✭GM228


    Victor wrote: »
    No, I said signs were a "good guide", they aren't perfect. Hence I mentioned the "inadvertence, oversight and damage aside" - with tends of thousands of signs out there, some are wrong. I know a section of mainline motorway that has an unsigned 50km/h speed limit for 100 metres, with 120km/h on either side.

    The default speed limits, as amended by bye-laws and regulations, are the law. If someone steals a sign, you can still be prosecuted.

    +1, missing/stolen or incorrect signs are irrelevant.

    Some may find this thread interesting on the topic.

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057726979


  • #25
    Isambard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,795 ✭✭✭Isambard


    whereas no doubt you could be charged with an offence, I imagine a missing sign would be an acceptable defence. I can't see how such a defence could fail.


  • #26
    Victor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,490 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Isambard wrote: »
    whereas no doubt you could be charged with an offence, I imagine a missing sign would be an acceptable defence. I can't see how such a defence could fail.
    What if they were local and knew, but ignored, the speed limit?

    What if they were doing motoway speeds down Main Street?

    What if the accused was the one who stole the sign?


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