Countryfolk want to Cull Deer

KingBrian2 · 04-11-2015 11:50pm #1

Why are people from the country calling on a cull for our beautiful wild deer population in Killarney National Park? Those deer have as much right to be on this soil as we humans do besides they have been brought back from devastation. This is not the sort of message we should be sending out. Help conserve wildlife but when it becomes hassle to interact with wild animals we go and cull them. This act is tantamount to environmental vandalism and should not be allowed to go ahead.

bigroad · 04-11-2015 11:56pm

Its a nice little earner for them when they sell the deer on for cash.

OpenYourEyes · 05-11-2015 12:23am

bigroad wrote: »

Its a nice little earner for them when they sell the deer on for cash.

To the best of my knowledge the cull will be carried out by NPWS rangers, not private hunters and so I'd be very confident the deer won't be sold on, certainly not for the benefit of any individuals.

bigroad · 05-11-2015 12:33am

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Why are people from the country calling on a cull for our beautiful wild deer population in Killarney National Park? Those deer have as much right to be on this soil as we humans do besides they have been brought back from devastation. This is not the sort of message we should be sending out. Help conserve wildlife but when it becomes hassle to interact with wild animals we go and cull them. This act is tantamount to environmental vandalism and should not be allowed to go ahead.

Is this calling for a cull of deer coming from the direction of the IFA.

OpenYourEyes · 05-11-2015 12:34am

bigroad wrote: »

Is this calling for a cull of deer coming from the direction of the IFA.

No, its coming from local politicians.

bigroad · 05-11-2015 12:51am

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

No, its coming from local politicians.

That in my book would be close enough.
You have to ask yourself the question,Who want rid of the deer.
What group of people do deer cause trouble for.
Who will gain from this if it goes ahead.

Dubl07 · 05-11-2015 12:55am

Nature being a balancing act, until the reintroduction of wolves culling will be occasionally necessary to ensure the health of the deer population and the integrity of the environment in which they live. I'm in favour of reintroducing wolves but I'm also partial to a roast loin of venison.

OpenYourEyes · 05-11-2015 12:58am

Dubl07 wrote: »

Nature being a balancing act, until the reintroduction of wolves culling will be occasionally necessary to ensure the health of the deer population and the integrity of the environment in which they live. I'm in favour of reintroducing wolves but I'm also partial to a roast loin of venison.

This cull isn't being proposed for either of those reasons though unfortunately; it's being done for road safety reasons, despite the fact that a deer collision has never been associated with a road fatality in Killarney. Most groups agree that changes to speed limits and road behaviour in the trouble areas would be a much more useful solution. Add to that the fact that the NPWS admitted they don't know how many Red Deer are in Killarney at the moment.

thegreatgonzo · 05-11-2015 1:01am

You didn't provide a link but I think the group of people they are causing trouble to are motorists. Nobody stands to gain from it from what I gather.

aaakev · 05-11-2015 1:05am

Dubl07 wrote: »

Nature being a balancing act, until the reintroduction of wolves culling will be occasionally necessary to ensure the health of the deer population and the integrity of the environment in which they live. I'm in favour of reintroducing wolves but I'm also partial to a roast loin of venison.

Thats never going to happen, we dont have the space for them. Wolves would be killed once they start going for the easy fenced in targets

There are thousands and thousands of deer shot every year, the reds in kilarney are protected so the numbers have been growing. maybe its time they were culled and it will actually benefit them by removing older, weak and sick members of the herd

bigroad · 05-11-2015 1:07am

So some politician or family member got a fright when they saw a deer close to the road.
And now they want to use their political influence to cull the unlucky deer.
On another note the NPWS would want to get their fingers out and start counting some deer.

OpenYourEyes · 05-11-2015 1:11am

aaakev wrote: »

Thats never going to happen, we dont have the space for them. Wolves would be killed once they start going for the easy fenced in targets

There are thousands and thousands of deer shot every year, the reds in kilarney are protected so the numbers have been growing and maybe its time they were culled and it will actually benefit them by removing older, weak and sick members of the herd

The key word is 'maybe' - we don't know how many deer are in Killarney; one of the first thing in any wildlife management plan is to see what you have. To go ahead with a cull without knowing that is careless.

OpenYourEyes · 05-11-2015 1:12am

bigroad wrote: »

So some politician or family member got a fright when they saw a deer close to the road.
And now they want to use their political influence to cull the unlucky deer.
On another note the NPWS would want to get their fingers out and start counting some deer.

NPWS are under-staffed, under-resourced and are essentially used as a political football to be kicked around the place. If NPWS aren't doing something you think they should be doing, its the Minister you should direct your ire at.

aaakev · 05-11-2015 1:16am

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

The key word is 'maybe' - we don't know how many deer are in Killarney; one of the first thing in any wildlife management plan is to see what you have. To go ahead with a cull without knowing that is careless.

I agree, personally iv no problem with it if done right. Culling the weak and sick should be done regardless of numbers

Subcomandante Marcos · 05-11-2015 1:17am

Basically the deer in the park have no natural predators and no hunting is allowed in the parks (and rightly so). But in the long run this causes problems, the deer herds grow too big, they over graze and the plant life dies off because it can't grow as quick as they eat it and then they end up starving. On top of that when the herd explodes you end up with splitting of the herd and increases in the range needed to feed them all so they end up moving out of the park and onto farmland and public roads, this causes a health risk for motorists and a nuisance for crop farmers.

Herds in parks NEED to be managed or they will literally breed themselves into oblivion. The park can employ professional hunters to come in, trim the herd numbers, nobody can profit from that.

OpenYourEyes · 05-11-2015 1:21am

aaakev wrote: »

I agree, personally iv no problem with it if done right. Culling the weak and sick should be done regardless of numbers

I have no problem with a cull when needed, but I'd never give the go-ahead to a cull regardless of numbers, unless some particularly devestating disease hit the population.

Subcomandante Marcos · 05-11-2015 1:22am

Solution #2:
Reintroduce European Grey Wolves, they'll cut the herd down in quick time...

:pac:

OpenYourEyes · 05-11-2015 1:23am

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

Basically the deer in the park have no natural predators and no hunting is allowed in the parks (and rightly so). But in the long run this causes problems, the deer herds grow too big, they over graze and the plant life dies off because it can't grow as quick as they eat it and then they end up starving. On top of that when the herd explodes you end up with splitting of the herd and increases in the range needed to feed them all so they end up moving out of the park and onto farmland and public roads, this causes a health risk for motorists and a nuisance for crop farmers.

Herds in parks NEED to be managed or they will literally breed themselves into oblivion. The park can employ professional hunters to come in, trim the herd numbers, nobody can profit from that.

Again, to emphasise, they don't know how many deer are in the population and this isn't being done for good herd management (which I agree is very important), its being done to satisfy local politicians.

Subcomandante Marcos · 05-11-2015 1:25am

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

Again, to emphasise, they don't know how many deer are in the population and this isn't being done for good herd management (which I agree is very important), its being done to satisfy local politicians.

Then do a herd survey, do a survey of they range, see if there is a problem, make corrections as needed.

If it's a case that the herd isn't over populated but is still moving outside of the parks and causing RTA's and damaging crop yields then we need to consider compensating motorists and farmers.

ted1 · 05-11-2015 1:27am

Could they not relocate them? Is there any red deer in the Glenties? Or are there any other parts of the country that would like them ?

bigroad · 05-11-2015 1:29am

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

NPWS are under-staffed, under-resourced and are essentially used as a political football to be kicked around the place. If NPWS aren't doing something you think they should be doing, its the Minister you should direct your ire at.

I agree if the NPWS are under staffed as you say .
Then these politicians should be told to quieten down till they get the funding and manpower to count the deer .
Without the numbers no cull should take place.
Not because some loud mouth politician thinks its a good idea without all the facts.

uck51js9zml2yt · 05-11-2015 1:29am

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

Solution #2:
Reintroduce European Grey Wolves, they'll cut the herd down in quick time...

:pac:

Wolves on the streets of Killarney. That'll work:)

OpenYourEyes · 05-11-2015 1:30am

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

Then do a herd survey, do a survey of they range, see if there is a problem, make corrections as needed.

If it's a case that the herd isn't over populated but is still moving outside of the parks and causing RTA's and damaging crop yields then we need to consider compensating motorists and farmers.

Yeah well thats what everyone is saying, but they're not going to do a herd survey or anything along those lines.

I think it was the Wild Deer Association of Ireland, amongst others, who pointed out that there have been no road fatalities linked to deer collisions there and that if RTA's are a problem then surely changing driver behaviour through signage, reduced speed limits etc. is a better solution that taking out an unknown percentage of the only 'true Irish' deer herd that exists.

I would imagine that the spread of Sika/hybrid deer into neighbouring areas are causing as many if not more problems, so surely a cull of them would be a better use of resources for all involved.

OpenYourEyes · 05-11-2015 1:34am

ted1 wrote: »

Could they not relocate them? Is there any red deer in the Glenties? Or are there any other parts of the country that would like them ?

While I agree it would be a great idea, its not something that could be done without a lot of study to look at how many deer and what type it would take in terms of age and sex ratios to have enough to start a population elsewhere, while also balancing the interests of the Killarney population in terms of genetic diversity (which is low I think). Then you have to find suitable habitat where the new deer won't have a signficant impact on anything, and also won't be threatened by interbreeding with sika/red hybrids, which rules out a lot of places.

Its the kind of thing they should be researching in detail now so that in the future small populations could be placed elsewhere, but unfortunately there isn't that level of forward thinking around nor the money to fund it!

Subcomandante Marcos · 05-11-2015 1:35am

ted1 wrote: »

Could they not relocate them? Is there any red deer in the Glenties? Or are there any other parts of the country that would like them ?

The only deer there's a bit of a lack of number wise in Ireland is Muntjac, and they are invasive so feck them. There's a grand scatter of Red and Fallow and waaaaay too many Sika (also invasive).

There's a grand scatter of Red in the west, south west, north west and Wicklow/Dublin. There's Fallow pretty much all over the gaff too.

We have come a long way from the bad auld days where red deer were a rare thing.

Subcomandante Marcos · 05-11-2015 1:36am

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

I would imagine that the spread of Sika/hybrid deer into neighbouring areas are causing as many if not more problems, so surely a cull of them would be a better use of resources for all involved.

I think it's time to make Sika and Muntjac pests and let people take as many of them as they want year round. Especially Sika!

OpenYourEyes · 05-11-2015 1:39am

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

The only deer there's a bit of a lack of number wise in Ireland is Muntjac, and they are invasive so feck them. There's a grand scatter of Red and Fallow and waaaaay too many Sika (also invasive).

There's a grand scatter of Red in the west, south west, north west and Wicklow/Dublin. There's Fallow pretty much all over the gaff too.

We have come a long way from the bad auld days where red deer were a rare thing.

Any Muntjac are too many alright! Sika too are out of control, particularly in Wicklow. To the best of my knowledge there are no pure Reds in Wicklow, they're all Sika/Red hybrids. Red Deer and Sikas wont readily interbreed, but Reds will interbreed with the Red/Sika hybrids, which are threatening the genetic integrity of our Red Deer population in many places.

I'm not even sure if there is any hard data on deer numbers - some organisations tell you there are too many, others tell you there are too few due to poaching etc. I suspect it varies heavily by region though.

foggy_lad · 05-11-2015 1:41am

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

No, its coming from local politicians.

Currys are sold out of chest freezers after looking after the local councillors and TDs

OpenYourEyes · 05-11-2015 1:42am

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

I think it's time to make Sika and Muntjac pests and let people take as many of them as they want year round. Especially Sika!

I doubt theres anything stopping anyone taking Muntjac, is there? They're invasive, and probably still at low enough numbers that a bit of effort and we could be rid of them!

I remember looking at figures of hunters and how many deer they shoot before, and essentially there aren't enough hunters interested in shooting large numbers of deer to solve the Sika problem in places like Wicklow. There are only a handful of hunters shooting >100 deer per year, most just take a handful. I think if the issue is to be solved there needs to be a number of well-trained and experienced deer stalkers who are employed for the sole purpose of reducing deer numbers.

Unfortunately increasing the market for venison isn't the solution either, because that tends to just increase poaching, animal cruelty and dangerous behaviour.

Subcomandante Marcos · 05-11-2015 1:50am

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

I doubt theres anything stopping anyone taking Muntjac, is there? They're invasive, and probably still at low enough numbers that a bit of effort and we could be rid of them!

I remember looking at figures of hunters and how many deer they shoot before, and essentially there aren't enough hunters interested in shooting large numbers of deer to solve the Sika problem in places like Wicklow. There are only a handful of hunters shooting >100 deer per year, most just take a handful. I think if the issue is to be solved there needs to be a number of well-trained and experienced deer stalkers who are employed for the sole purpose of reducing deer numbers.

Unfortunately increasing the market for venison isn't the solution either, because that tends to just increase poaching, animal cruelty and dangerous behaviour.

Maybe there's scope to make a bit of money on deer hunting tourism "come to Ireland and shoot as much Sika as your heart desires". Walk around the mountains with a few yanks and a riffle and tag 4 or 5 in a day, call in someone on a quad to haul the carcass out and move on...

I realise it's not quite THAT easy, but it's not far off at times...

Subcomandante Marcos · 05-11-2015 2:00am

Jesus, I just did a bit of google detective work and Sika are actually protected under the wildlife act...

WHY?!?

Out into the field, against the wall, one shot, bang bang.

aaakev · 05-11-2015 10:10am

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

Maybe there's scope to make a bit of money on deer hunting tourism "come to Ireland and shoot as much Sika as your heart desires". Walk around the mountains with a few yanks and a riffle and tag 4 or 5 in a day, call in someone on a quad to haul the carcass out and move on...

I realise it's not quite THAT easy, but it's not far off at times...

Irish hunters pay thousands for let's off coilte every season. Hunting tourism is definitely not an answer as you would have places decimated and ruin lads sport who are probably shooting there years

dodderangler · 05-11-2015 11:42am

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

Jesus, I just did a bit of google detective work and Sika are actually protected under the wildlife act...

WHY?!?

Out into the field, against the wall, one shot, bang bang.

Pretty sure one shot would just be bang. Not bang bang
Sika have been in Ireland for over 160 years so personally I don't class them as being invasive as they're here that long.
Yes they are originated from Japan and were brought over but 160 years is a long time. The downside of them here is they bulldoze their way through spruces and such and are overpopulating our native reds leaving them with feck all to eat

Subcomandante Marcos · 05-11-2015 1:01pm

dodderangler wrote: »

The downside of them here is they bulldoze their way through spruces and such and are overpopulating our native reds leaving them with feck all to eat

Because they aren't native, they shouldn't be here, they destroy the habitat and damage farm land. Much like the Grey Squirl, they have been here for ages but they are out competing the native species and should be treated as an invasive species.

OpenYourEyes · 05-11-2015 2:26pm

The Irish Wildlife Trust have just issued the following press release:
https://www.facebook.com/IrishWildlifeTrust/photos/a.286536755103.317506.278016275103/10156163177505104/?type=3

Deer culls symptomatic of increased verminisation of our wildlife

The Irish Wildlife Trust is calling on the government to properly fund wildlife conservation so that our natural heritage can be correctly managed. Increasingly vocal calls for culls of wildlife, from sea gulls to pine martens and deer point to a growing trend in the ‘verminisation’ of the native species with which we share this island. Demands for a cull of deer to control TB in cattle or the recent announcement of a cull of native red deer in Killarney National Park are being based on no scientific evidence and/or a lack of funding to gather the needed data.

The IWT’s Campaign Officer Pádraic Fogarty says “more and more we are seeing culls as a default reaction when even minor conflicts arise between people and other animals. Even stealing someone’s chips is crime enough for some to call for a cull of sea gulls. Casual statements about deer being ‘out of control’ or ‘dramatically increasing in number’ are based on no evidence since deer have never been counted by the National Parks and Wildlife Service due to years of chronic underfunding. Our wildlife is not vermin but rather an essential part of our heritage.”

A recent study of red deer in Ireland found that genetic diversity of the population in Killarney is low, something that is an inherent threat to the survival of the species[1]. The IWT believes that sustainable population management of deer cannot be conducted without accurate baseline data on deer numbers and therefore a census needs to be conducted in the national park before any decisions on population control should be made. The Trust also feel that given the restricted distribution of genuinely native red deer in Ireland, rather than shooting these deer, excess animals should be relocated to parts of Ireland where deer numbers are low, in order to build a strong national herd. This was done in the past, where a new herd was established in Connemara.

The IWT is in favour of the correct, science-based management of wildlife and continues to call for the meaningful funding of conservation bodies. This would be a better way to spend taxpayers money in place of the knee-jerk political response that is now becoming the norm.

[1] http://www.sciencedirect.com/…/article/pii/S1616504709000494

OpenYourEyes · 05-11-2015 3:07pm

From the Wild Deer Association of Ireland's facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1007742885915019

A public meeting to discuss the proposed cull of our native Red deer will take place tonight at 8pm in the Malton Hotel, Killarney. The meeting is being organised by Killarney Nature and Conservation Group and a large attendance is expected. The group are not opposed to the culling of deer but are opposed to culling without a current and proper census of the parks deer herd along with an appropriate management plan if a cull is required.

Dubl07 · 05-11-2015 3:13pm

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

From the Wild Deer Association of Ireland's facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1007742885915019

A public meeting to discuss the proposed cull of our native Red deer will take place tonight at 8pm in the Malton Hotel, Killarney. The meeting is being organised by Killarney Nature and Conservation Group and a large attendance is expected. The group are not opposed to the culling of deer but are opposed to culling without a current and proper census of the parks deer herd along with an appropriate management plan if a cull is required.

That sounds very fair and balanced, although it's very short notice for people who might like to attend.

Actually, this meeting was held on Tuesday night. :-/

OpenYourEyes · 05-11-2015 4:10pm

Dubl07 wrote: »

Actually, this meeting was held on Tuesday night. :-/

Apologies - saw it shared on twitter today. I didn't check the date!

Mickeroo · 05-11-2015 4:13pm

Ugh, just when you think the country is finally moving forward this kind of thing happens to remind you just how backward we still actually are.

OpenYourEyes · 05-11-2015 6:11pm

Previous research has said that the herd needs to number 600-1000 individuals to stay healthy; I think I saw a recent suggestion that its around 700 at the moment.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/hunt-ban-on-female-red-deer-in-kerry-1.556232

Dubl07 · 05-11-2015 6:19pm

Mickeroo wrote: »

Ugh, just when you think the country is finally moving forward this kind of thing happens to remind you just how backward we still actually are.

Backward in what way?

OpenYourEyes · 05-11-2015 7:04pm

Dubl07 wrote: »

Backward in what way?

We're enacting a cull of a herd of deer that not only has conservation value but has cultural and tourism value. We're doing this despite other easier options being available to solve the problem they're causing. And we're doing it despite not actually knowing how many deer are there in the first place - which is the first thing you need to know for a wildlife management plan.

Its not exactly forward thinking!

dodderangler · 05-11-2015 9:03pm

Good to see the zoology forum alive anyway

KingBrian2 · 05-11-2015 9:53pm

Do they know the flag of the Munster rugby team has a deer emblazoned on it.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-7BssDQtMtds/Uv9AmyE7X1I/AAAAAAAAI6I/c-oV77EvwrE/s1600/Flag+of+Munster+Ireland+rugby+club+ie%2540munst.gif

KingBrian2 · 05-11-2015 10:01pm

Well I only started this forum to vent my disproval. The Scots are planning to reintroduce the wolf to the highlands. The Spanish are bringing the Lynx back from the edge and of course the beautiful Golden Eagle programme is doing great work reinvigorating the population and here we are talking about culling the Red Deer which is an Irish native species. It smacks of anti environment which is bad for the countryside and the nature lovers everywhere.

Dubl07 · 05-11-2015 10:22pm

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Well I only started this forum to vent my disproval. The Scots are planning to reintroduce the wolf to the highlands. The Spanish are bringing the Lynx back from the edge and of course the beautiful Golden Eagle programme is doing great work reinvigorating the population and here we are talking about culling the Red Deer which is an Irish native species. It smacks of anti environment which is bad for the countryside and the nature lovers everywhere.

Reintroducing predators like wolves, lynx and eagles would be my personal preference to maintain a balance. I suppose the fear would be that much of their smaller prey may not be available to sustain a breeding population without them killing livestock or domestic animals. That leads to idiots poisoning the reintroduced animals instead of holding steady for a few years/decades until equilibrium has been attained. If our leaders can't even keep a government steady for a few years how can they be depended upon to manage and fund an ecosystem?

Countryfolk want to Cull Deer

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