Clampers use spotter workaround

Ubbquittious · 24-09-2020 10:21am #1

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/clampers-used-unauthorised-spotter-workaround-for-higher-bonuses-1.4363482?mode=amp

Scum, dirty evil robbing scum. Is there any way we could get rid of these shaggers, ship them all out to sea or something.

Companies themselves are as bad with giving bonuses and quotas.

errlloyd · 24-09-2020 10:27am

So the workaround here is that a vehicle is "spotted" by one clamper, who doesn't want to wait around for it's grace period to expire. So he notifies a whatsapp group of his colleagues (presumably) and if one of them is in the area a few minutes later they can clamp it.

Miscreant · 24-09-2020 10:40am

I have seen this happening for years and years. Funny it is only coming to light now.

biko · 24-09-2020 10:45am

In his findings, Mr Baneham stated that the workers’ bonus payments depended on how many vehicles they clamped and he stated: “Staff have the obvious incentive to bend the rules in order to stave off criticism of their performance or to earn additional remuneration.”

Pretty obvious

GLaDOS · 24-09-2020 10:46am

So they clamped cars that were illegally parked?

Sounds like the companies just pissed they had to pay a big bonus.

Atlantic Dawn · 24-09-2020 10:48am

It's a poorly regulated industry, you could walk out of Mountjoy after serving 20 years for murder and kidnapping and set up a clamping business the next morning.

The Continental Op · 24-09-2020 10:50am

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

It's a poorly regulated industry, you could walk out of Mountjoy after serving 20 years for murder and kidnapping and set up a clamping business the next morning.

Isn't that how they are all set up?

errlloyd · 24-09-2020 10:51am

I hate being clamped as much as the next man, and I have been clamped many times. But I must confess I don't see what the problem is here?

Why do the spotter and clamper have to be the same person?

whisky_galore · 24-09-2020 10:52am

Here's a thing, how about don't park illegally?

seamus · 24-09-2020 10:54am

“It is imperative for public confidence in the administration of a clamping regime,” he said.

He stated that neither the regulations, nor the employer’s policy “permit one staff member to spot and another to clamp”.

It goes to show how utterly flimsy and pointless the clamping laws are.

The purpose is to discourage illegal parking by charging those who do.

Instead the WRC (and apparently the regulations) believe that illegal parking is OK so long as the clampers don't see you parking.

The "grace period" issue would be easily solved by simply printing out "grace period" tickets from the machines and making it a legal requirement for all vehicles to display a ticket, even inside the grace period.

The Continental Op · 24-09-2020 11:01am

seamus wrote: »

It goes to show how utterly flimsy and pointless the clamping laws are.

The purpose is to discourage illegal parking by charging those who do.

Instead the WRC (and apparently the regulations) believe that illegal parking is OK so long as the clampers don't see you parking.

The "grace period" issue would be easily solved by simply printing out "grace period" tickets from the machines and making it a legal requirement for all vehicles to display a ticket, even inside the grace period.

Welcome to Dungarvan, if you park when there are no charges you still have to display a ticket. If you are in an area with half hours free parking and then park at night your half hours free gets added to the following morning. If you park during the day for the free half an hour you still need to get a free ticket from the machine. Its a very simple system.

DangerScouse · 24-09-2020 11:03am

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

It's a poorly regulated industry, you could walk out of Mountjoy after serving 20 years for murder and kidnapping and set up a clamping business the next morning.

So what if they have served their time.

Del2005 · 24-09-2020 11:17am

seamus wrote: »

The "grace period" issue would be easily solved by simply printing out "grace period" tickets from the machines and making it a legal requirement for all vehicles to display a ticket, even inside the grace period.

Plenty of places where commercial vehicles can park don't have pay and display.

From my reading the employee was fired for taking a van home. No idea why the "spotting" is even an issue, if a vehicle is illegally parked does it matter how its caught. Can you imagine the Gardai only being able to arrest criminals if they actually saw the offence being committed.

biko · 24-09-2020 11:36am

Will putting your hazards on still deter clampers?

DeepBlue · 24-09-2020 11:59am

So there is a 20 minute grace period before you can be clamped?

biko · 24-09-2020 2:17pm

DeepBlue wrote: »

So there is a 20 minute grace period before you can be clamped?

And if you add this period to the hazards you get 45 mins free parking.

24-09-2020 2:23pm

lets all go and shop / work in Roscommon town, free parking for all. Fair few Clampetts there but no Clampers.

Vic_08 · 24-09-2020 3:00pm

DeepBlue wrote: »

So there is a 20 minute grace period before you can be clamped?

The article makes no mention which company or where this was.

It wouldn't be the smartest thing to assume there is a grace period somewhere unless you see it somewhere official.

The Continental Op · 24-09-2020 3:11pm

Any grace period is purely in the imagination of the owner of the clamped car.

KaneToad · 24-09-2020 3:13pm

errlloyd wrote: »

I hate being clamped as much as the next man, and I have been clamped many times. But I must confess I don't see what the problem is here?

Why do the spotter and clamper have to be the same person?

I assumed this was how they all operated. I don't like being clamped but if the car is illegally parked, it's illegally parked.

Learn something new every day...

KaneToad · 24-09-2020 3:14pm

biko wrote: »

Will putting your hazards on still deter clampers?

No. But leaving a child in the front seat will!

kona · 24-09-2020 3:16pm

Ratbags.

accensi0n · 24-09-2020 3:19pm

I'm more bothered by this in the article:
18.24pm

Irishphotodesk · 24-09-2020 3:39pm

The Continental Op wrote: »

Any grace period is purely in the imagination of the owner of the clamped car.

Grace periods are written in the bye-laws of the various areas, if my memory is correct Dublin city centre is 10mins grace period, dun laoghaire is 15minutes.

kirving · 24-09-2020 3:43pm

The Continental Op wrote: »

Any grace period is purely in the imagination of the owner of the clamped car.

I doubt you'd have the same opinion if a clamper stood beside your vehicle, and clamped your car while you walked to the meter. Shout out to the parking warden in Rathfarnham village who hides behind a wall and does this.

I suggest you read Section 5.1.4.

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/Draft_Clamping_Code_of_Practice.pdf wrote:

The ‘grace period’ concept enshrined in the suite of clamping legislation is a ten minute ‘window’ The ‘grace period’ concept enshrined in the suite of clamping legislation is a ten minute ‘window’ afforded to motorists to enable them pay for parking
.

The issue with a single clamper not observing your vehicle for 10 minutes, is that the spotter sees your car at 6am with no ticket, but the payment time is 7am-7pm. They note the reg and send to a colleague.

You leave at 6.30am and return at 7.30am. You walk off to buy a ticket.

Clamper no. 2 drivers up at 7.35am and clamps your car despite legislation disallowing that. How is that fair?

seamus · 24-09-2020 3:44pm

Del2005 wrote: »

Can you imagine the Gardai only being able to arrest criminals if they actually saw the offence being committed.

In some cases, this is the truth.

Basically hearsay is not evidence.

If one Garda tells another Garda that he saw someone littering, then the first Garda is the one who must issue the on-the-spot fine, because his word is the evidence. The second Garda couldn't do anything, because he has zero evidence the offence took place.

This is probably the same issue. The clamper who clamps the vehicle probably has to personally observe the vehicle breaching the grace period, and cannot rely on hearsay from another about when they saw the vehicle.

Irishphotodesk · 24-09-2020 3:44pm

I do agree with the poster who said there should be an automatic "grace period" ticket issued for 100% clarity, any vehicle parked without a ticket is fair game to be clamped.

I have been clamped in the past and have had a number of issues with the clampers giving special attention to my vehicle (walking to the traffic side specifically to read the tax/insurance/NCT disks, but it wasn't done to any vehicle on the street, I witnessed it myself and sent an email to Dublin city council and was told they are permitted to do so as part of their role, I still have that letter)

SouthWesterly · 24-09-2020 3:47pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

lets all go and shop / work in Roscommon town, free parking for all. Fair few Clampetts there but no Clampers.

I got the joke

Spook_ie · 24-09-2020 4:07pm

Kevin Irving wrote: »

I doubt you'd have the same opinion if a clamper stood beside your vehicle, and clamped your car while you walked to the meter. Shout out to the parking warden in Rathfarnham village who hides behind a wall and does this.

I suggest you read Section 5.1.4.

The issue with a single clamper not observing your vehicle for 10 minutes, is that the spotter sees your car at 6am with no ticket, but the payment time is 7am-7pm. They note the reg and send to a colleague.

You leave at 6.30am and return at 7.30am. You walk off to buy a ticket.

Clamper no. 2 drivers up at 7.35am and clamps your car despite legislation disallowing that. How is that fair?

But you've had 35 minutes to put a ticket on your car!

24-09-2020 4:12pm

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

It's a poorly regulated industry, you could walk out of Mountjoy after serving 20 years for murder and kidnapping and set up a clamping business the next morning.

Applies to a lot of industries including PSV and Security. The person clamping my empty car in a random parking space has little knowledge that concerns me compared to the lad keeping my property safe and bringing me home

But this system as described in the article is dishonest

24-09-2020 4:14pm

Ubbquittious wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/clampers-used-unauthorised-spotter-workaround-for-higher-bonuses-1.4363482?mode=amp

Scum, dirty evil robbing scum. Is there any way we could get rid of these shaggers, ship them all out to sea or something.

Companies themselves are as bad with giving bonuses and quotas.

While I disagree with the practice as described in the article, and indeed a staff member was fired for it, if you are legally parked theres no issue.

tcawley29 · 24-09-2020 5:04pm

Spook_ie wrote: »

But you've had 35 minutes to put a ticket on your car!

Read the post again. Its actually 5 mins

errlloyd · 24-09-2020 5:13pm

tcawley29 wrote: »

Read the post again. Its actually 5 mins

I mean, that example is fair. But there is no reason that has to be two different vans. One van could observe your car at 6:30, and the same van could observe your car at 7:30. It has nothing to do with the spotter clamper dynamic.

Ultimately if you happen to park in the EXACT same space, 1 hour apart, and while buying a ticket you also happen to be clamped that is extremely unlucky, but your appeal will be successful if you can prove it.

I realise the spotter dynamic at play here makes that slightly more likely, but only slightly.

antodeco · 24-09-2020 5:46pm

Why don't they just build in the grave period to the ticket? Always adds 10 minutes into the time.

errlloyd · 24-09-2020 5:51pm

antodeco wrote: »

Why don't they just build in the grave period to the ticket? Always adds 10 minutes into the time.

I think the grace period is supposed to allow you to buy a ticket. I don't it is supposed to add time onto the end of your ticket.

tcawley29 · 24-09-2020 5:59pm

errlloyd wrote: »

I think the grace period is supposed to allow you to buy a ticket. I don't it is supposed to add time onto the end of your ticket.

This

kirving · 24-09-2020 6:07pm

errlloyd wrote: »

Ultimately if you happen to park in the EXACT same space, 1 hour apart, and while buying a ticket you also happen to be clamped that is extremely unlucky, but your appeal will be successful if you can prove it.

I realise the spotter dynamic at play here makes that slightly more likely, but only slightly.

I doubt that the clampers measure the position of the car to the millimeter to ensure it hasn't moved.

The point is you shouldn't be clamped in that scenario, and you shouldn't have to pay. Guilty until proven innocent in that case. Not about likely scenarios, but the clampers have to be factual if they're going to hold your vehicle hostage.

Then again, the company paying bonuses for the number of cars clamped is completely at odds with having a "policy" against spotters to comply with the grace period legislation and supposedly avoid possible scenarios like I've described. They were clearly looking to get rid of this guy, but exposed their bonus practices in doing so.

I am absolutely convinced though, that ParkingTag app tracks your location via the app to see if you've been back to the car, and if not the backend server sends a list of soon to be expired tickets to the clamping company. That's what I'd do if I was developing it.

Let's just hope we don't go they way of the UK, and provide private enforcement companies with access to your home address where they send you an extortionate bill, after monitoring you walking into the wrong shop first.

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2018/nov/10/parking-fine-starbucks-mcdonalds-stansted-southgate-park

24-09-2020 6:16pm

Kevin Irving wrote: »

I doubt that the clampers measure the position of the car to the millimeter to ensure it hasn't moved.

The point is you shouldn't be clamped in that scenario, and you shouldn't have to pay. Guilty until proven innocent in that case. Not about likely scenarios, but the clampers have to be factual if they're going to hold your vehicle hostage.

Then again, the company paying bonuses for the number of cars clamped is completely at odds with having a "policy" against spotters to comply with the grace period legislation and supposedly avoid possible scenarios like I've described. They were clearly looking to get rid of this guy, but exposed their bonus practices in doing so.

I am absolutely convinced though, that ParkingTag app tracks your location via the app to see if you've been back to the car, and if not the backend server sends a list of soon to be expired tickets to the clamping company. That's what I'd do if I was developing it.

Let's just hope we don't go they way of the UK, and provide private enforcement companies with access to your home address where they send you an extortionate bill, after monitoring you walking into the wrong shop first.

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2018/nov/10/parking-fine-starbucks-mcdonalds-stansted-southgate-park

That would be a breach of data protection, usage and would also need access to your GPS / Location via your phone. That requires you granting the app such access.

TheChizler · 24-09-2020 6:36pm

Kevin Irving wrote: »

I doubt that the clampers measure the position of the car to the millimeter to ensure it hasn't moved.

The point is you shouldn't be clamped in that scenario, and you shouldn't have to pay. Guilty until proven innocent in that case. Not about likely scenarios, but the clampers have to be factual if they're going to hold your vehicle hostage.

But that situation has nothing to do with a spotter clamper, if it was the same guy they wouldn't see you leave inbetween either.

The Continental Op · 24-09-2020 6:55pm

TheChizler wrote: »

But that situation has nothing to do with a spotter clamper, if it was the same guy they wouldn't see you leave inbetween either.

The signs for UK on street parking often say something like Maximum Stay x hours No Return within 2 hours. Stops people hogging a car space and gets around that problem. So its not an impossible situation to deal with.

Victor · 24-09-2020 7:53pm

DeepBlue wrote: »

So there is a 20 minute grace period before you can be clamped?

It is very much dependent on context and the time period varies. A taxi outside a hotel loading luggage is going to get a lot more discretion than an ordinary car parked in a wheelchair space.

Irishphotodesk wrote: »

Grace periods are written in the bye-laws of the various areas, if my memory is correct Dublin city centre is 10mins grace period, dun laoghaire is 15minutes.

Again, very much context dependent.

24-09-2020 10:13pm

Victor wrote: »

It is very much dependent on context and the time period varies.

In the article they mention a supermarket delivery van being ticketed 6 minutes out from it's grace period.

That kind of kills the 'context' argument.

whisky_galore wrote: »

Here's a thing, how about don't park illegally?

Easier said than done. People that are doddling about doing a bit of shopping should park legally. They have no real reason not to.

It's people that use a vehicle for work that are the ones that get stung with the lack of parking provided in spaces, or the greedy clampers like the ones in the article.

There should be an unwritten rule (or actually, even add it to byelaws if need be to make it official) that you can't clamp an obvious work vehicle, especially one that operates in the public interest. For example, a Tesco delivery van, An Post (and all other couriers), etc. these are the people who don't have a choice where they park. They have to deliver to an address and if that address doesn't have sufficient parking, or is inside a gated complex where clampers operate, a blind eye should be turned.

I'd also argue that the likes of GoCar should be left alone, too, to encourage people to use it more.

newmember2 · 24-09-2020 11:10pm

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

While I disagree with the practice as described in the article, and indeed a staff member was fired for it...

You disagree with an employee bringing a work van home when told not to?

Del2005 · 24-09-2020 11:33pm

Kevin Irving wrote: »

The issue with a single clamper not observing your vehicle for 10 minutes, is that the spotter sees your car at 6am with no ticket, but the payment time is 7am-7pm. They note the reg and send to a colleague.

You leave at 6.30am and return at 7.30am. You walk off to buy a ticket.

Clamper no. 2 drivers up at 7.35am and clamps your car despite legislation disallowing that. How is that fair?

You'd have the same problem if the clamper who saw you parked at 6am returned at 7.35am. They won't know what you moved either.

I'm almost certain that you can't return to the same parking zone, ie Red, Yellow etc, for a hour or 2 in Dublin but can't find the regulations. So you would be subject to being clamped if you did that even if you have paid for parking.

endacl · 25-09-2020 12:13am

Del2005 wrote: »

You'd have the same problem if the clamper who saw you parked at 6am returned at 7.35am. They won't know what you moved either.

I'm almost certain that you can't return to the same parking zone, ie Red, Yellow etc, for a hour or 2 in Dublin but can't find the regulations. So you would be subject to being clamped if you did that even if you have paid for parking.

Of course you can. Even their own app allows you to pay a top up fee. Just can’t pay for more than 3 hours at a time.

Your post doesn’t even make internal sense. So you can’t park at one end of Ranelagh for 20 minutes, then drive up the far and and pay and park again?

The reason you can’t find the regulation is there is no such regulation.

Tails142 · 25-09-2020 12:31am

The zones are colour coded and you're not meant to stay more than 3 hours in one parking space. The app does allow you to keep topping up however.

If you have done 3 hours on a street you must vacate for at least one hour, rules outlined here http://www.dublincity.ie/pay-and-display-step-step

The maximum allowed parking time is 3 hours.
You must vacate a parking space after your ticket has expired.
You must not return to the same street until 1 hour has elapsed.
If you still have time left on your ticket you can use it elsewhere (provided you do not park in a more expensive zone).
One hour after paid parking controls end at night, you can buy a ticket for the following morning.

25-09-2020 1:55am

newmember? wrote: »

You disagree with an employee bringing a work van home when told not to?

Obviously but I thought the article stated he was warned about spotting

whisky_galore · 25-09-2020 8:44am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Easier said than done. People that are doddling about doing a bit of shopping should park legally. They have no real reason not to.

It's people that use a vehicle for work that are the ones that get stung with the lack of parking provided in spaces, or the greedy clampers like the ones in the article.

There should be an unwritten rule (or actually, even add it to byelaws if need be to make it official) that you can't clamp an obvious work vehicle, especially one that operates in the public interest. For example, a Tesco delivery van, An Post (and all other couriers), etc. these are the people who don't have a choice where they park. They have to deliver to an address and if that address doesn't have sufficient parking, or is inside a gated complex where clampers operate, a blind eye should be turned.

I'd also argue that the likes of GoCar should be left alone, too, to encourage people to use it more.

I've never heard of obvious marked delivery vehicles being clamped, and besides they wouldn't be hanging around for more than 10 mins to make a drop and get back. They're not vehicles sitting around all day with owners arsing around gawking at shops.

GoCar have their own marked spaces anyhow.

vandriver · 25-09-2020 9:29am

whisky_galore wrote: »

I've never heard of obvious marked delivery vehicles being clamped, and besides they wouldn't be hanging around for more than 10 mins to make a drop and get back. They're not vehicles sitting around all day with owners arsing around gawking at shops.

GoCar have their own marked spaces anyhow.

Go cars can park for free in any legal space.Unfortunately the users of gocar,whether through ignorance or inexperience seem to chose a lot of illegal spots to park judging by the huge number of them I see clamped every week.

errlloyd · 25-09-2020 1:09pm

GoVans are a funny one. They're Category D Goods Vehicles (or whatever) but we got clamped in one while in a 15 minute loading bay.

We were genuinely picking up a bedframe. So we got out as the guy was clamping it, managed to successfully call the company and get it unclamped before he had left. But a pain in the ass.

vandriver · 25-09-2020 1:52pm

errlloyd wrote: »

GoVans are a funny one. They're Category D Goods Vehicles (or whatever) but we got clamped in one while in a 15 minute loading bay.

We were genuinely picking up a bedframe. So we got out as the guy was clamping it, managed to successfully call the company and get it unclamped before he had left. But a pain in the ass.

You may use a loading bay while actively loading or unloading.
It's the actively bit they can get you on.

Clampers use spotter workaround

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