Rear extension no planning needed

dzilla · 15-11-2018 6:09pm #1

Hi ,

With regards doing a rear extension < 40m2 and no higher than the existing structure leaving over 25m2 space in the garden space for the house occupants I understand that no palnning is needed.

Do I HAVE to apply for Application for Declaration of Exempted Development under Section 5 of the Planning and Development Act 2000? However

Can I proceed with the build or must I get the above reviewed by the council?

Regards
d

Gumbo · 15-11-2018 6:45pm

No you don’t have to apply for a section 5.

Ask your builder who is signing off on the structural elements, foundations, roof structure and any steel works.

You should engage a professional to technically design (insulation, airtightness and structure amongst others) who will then issue Certificates of compliance on completion. This should include opinion of exemption also.

Gileadi · 15-11-2018 10:31pm

kceire wrote: »

You should engage a professional to technically design (insulation, airtightness and structure amongst others) who will then issue Certificates of compliance on completion. This should include opinion of exemption also.

If works are exempt from planning no Cert of Compliance on Completion is required as not under the building control regulations. Needless to say compliance with relevant building regs is required though.

Gumbo · 15-11-2018 11:02pm

Gileadi wrote: »

If works are exempt from planning no Cert of Compliance on Completion is required as not under the building control regulations. Needless to say compliance with relevant building regs is required though.

Incorrect.
Certs are required to release any funds for the project, also should the OP ever go to remortgage or sell, then the certs are required.

2 certs are required from the designer.
1. Opinion on compliance with building regulations.
2. Opinion on compliance with the planning regulations, specifically the exempted development regulations.

Gileadi · 15-11-2018 11:15pm

Where did the OP say he was getting a loan/mortgage? That’s a stipulation of the financial institution.

He also does not require opinion of compliance with building regs, or opinion of exemption from planning. While these are nice to have, they are not ‘required’ as you state.

Gumbo · 15-11-2018 11:56pm

Gileadi wrote: »

Where did the OP say he was getting a loan/mortgage? That’s a stipulation of the financial institution.

He also does not require opinion of compliance with building regs, or opinion of exemption from planning. While these are nice to have, they are not ‘required’ as you state.

They will be required should the OP sell in the future.

Gileadi · 16-11-2018 11:07am

I still think they fall into the nice to have category rather than required.

But I will agree that it is much handier to have these certs completed when the work is carried out than trying to get a different Arch/Eng to sign them years down the line.

Penn · 16-11-2018 11:21am

Gileadi wrote: »

I still think they fall into the nice to have category rather than required.

But I will agree that it is much handier to have these certs completed when the work is carried out than trying to get a different Arch/Eng to sign them years down the line.

A different Arch/Eng won't be able to sign them off in the future without carrying out significant investigatory works. No Arch/Eng is going to be able to sign off that the extension was built in accordance with building regs if they don't know what the foundations are like, what the ground is like, do structural members have the right bearing, is the wallplate properly fixed, are joists and rafter properly strapped, were wall ties spaced correctly etc.

A cert of Compliance with Building Regs based on a visual inspection only of the works as completed means very little. A proper one is more than a nice to have. Admittedly, it's a should-have rather than a must-have, but it's absolutely more than a nice-to-have.

dzilla · 16-11-2018 11:22am

Penn wrote: »

A different Arch/Eng won't be able to sign them off in the future without carrying out significant investigatory works. No Arch/Eng is going to be able to sign off that the extension was built in accordance with building regs if they don't know what the foundations are like, what the ground is like, do structural members have the right bearing, is the wallplate properly fixed, are joists and rafter properly strapped, were wall ties spaced correctly etc.

A cert of Compliance with Building Regs based on a visual inspection only of the works as completed means very little. A proper one is more than a nice to have. Admittedly, it's a should-have rather than a must-have, but it's absolutely more than a nice-to-have.

Yes my builder has an engineer how would certify all of this

Gileadi · 16-11-2018 11:43am

Penn wrote: »

A different Arch/Eng won't be able to sign them off in the future without carrying out significant investigatory works. No Arch/Eng is going to be able to sign off that the extension was built in accordance with building regs if they don't know what the foundations are like, what the ground is like, do structural members have the right bearing, is the wallplate properly fixed, are joists and rafter properly strapped, were wall ties spaced correctly etc.

A cert of Compliance with Building Regs based on a visual inspection only of the works as completed means very little. A proper one is more than a nice to have. Admittedly, it's a should-have rather than a must-have, but it's absolutely more than a nice-to-have.

An opinion of compliance is possible based on a visual inspection, it isn't ideal but it is done. The cert in all practical terms is next to worthless but solicitors accept them regularly in conveyancy.

Example being somebody who has done a rear extension 20 years ago and is now wishing to sell, no designer involvement during construction, Steel beam installed to support rear first floor wall and small lean to extension built. Are you saying that no Arch/Engineer will sign a (heavily conditioned) opinion of compliance? Because my experience has shown that many are operating in this area.

The OP asked what he needs to satisfy the council. Thats the questions I've been answering. Somewhere along the thread this has morphed into what he should have, which wasn't the question.

Gumbo · 16-11-2018 11:54am

dzilla wrote: »

Yes my builder has an engineer how would certify all of this

Engineer should be independent and working for you, not the builder.
Ask the builder what Certificates his Engineer will be giving you on completion.

dzilla · 16-11-2018 3:29pm

kceire wrote: »

Engineer should be independent and working for you, not the builder.
Ask the builder what Certificates his Engineer will be giving you on completion.

OK will do thanks

jmBuildExt · 19-11-2018 12:59pm

dzilla wrote: »

Hi ,

Do I HAVE to apply for Application for Declaration of Exempted Development under Section 5 of the Planning and Development Act 2000? However

d

You dont HAVE to.... But get this done for your own peace of mind. Its 80 euros.
I had a design done up by an architect, that was supposed to be exempt. Had we went ahead with it, he would have signed off as being exempt after we built it.
But he (and the 3 other people in his firm who looked at the design) missed this detail (genuine mistake, he was very embarrassed). It wasn't until I applied for section 5 declaration that I noticed one of the windows was too close to the boundary.

This would have brought up a whole pile of issues had it arisen when i went to sell.

Gumbo · 19-11-2018 10:35pm

jmBuildExt wrote: »

You dont HAVE to.... But get this done for your own peace of mind. Its 80 euros.
I had a design done up by an architect, that was supposed to be exempt. Had we went ahead with it, he would have signed off as being exempt after we built it.
But he (and the 3 other people in his firm who looked at the design) missed this detail (genuine mistake, he was very embarrassed). It wasn't until I applied for section 5 declaration that I noticed one of the windows was too close to the boundary.

This would have brought up a whole pile of issues had it arisen when i went to sell.

Just to add to this, the application fee is only €80. That doesn’t include the drawings prepared or the OSi Map. So expect fees from whoever prepares the plans.

The window fac8ng the boundary is a silly mistake alright, I assume he was showing it less than 1m at ground floor?

doug82 · 20-11-2018 12:27am

dzilla wrote: »

Hi ,

With regards doing a rear extension < 40m2 and no higher than the existing structure leaving over 25m2 space in the garden space for the house occupants I understand that no palnning is needed.

Do I HAVE to apply for Application for Declaration of Exempted Development under Section 5 of the Planning and Development Act 2000? However

Can I proceed with the build or must I get the above reviewed by the council?

Regards
d

You absolutely do not have get a section 5. The rules for this exemption are simple. As an experienced planning consultant I would advise to steer clear of any unnecessary planning process

dzilla · 20-11-2018 10:56am

Thank you all very useful information and I am 1000% confident all cirteria has been met to satisfy planning exemption.

One more thing, the previous owner built a garage in the 90s out the back and got retention on it in 1997. Can anybody confirm that the 20m2 in the garage does not now eat into my 40m2 for my new extension?

Gumbo · 20-11-2018 11:46am

dzilla wrote: »

Thank you all very useful information and I am 1000% confident all cirteria has been met to satisfy planning exemption.

One more thing, the previous owner built a garage in the 90s out the back and got retention on it in 1997. Can anybody confirm that the 20m2 in the garage does not now eat into my 40m2 for my new extension?

It does eat into your exemption, planning or otherwise.
It reduces how big you can now build without going for planning.

Your new extension can only be 20 sq. M to be exempted.

Class 1
2(a)

2. (a) Where the house has been extended previously, the floor area of any such extension, taken together with the floor area of any previous extension or extensions constructed or erected after 1 October 1964, including those for which planning permission has been obtained, shall not exceed 40 square metres.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2001/si/600/made/en/print

doug82 · 20-11-2018 12:15pm

It if it still used as a garage it doesn't eat into your 40sqm as a garage is not an extension.

dzilla · 20-11-2018 12:19pm

kceire wrote: »

It does eat into your exemption, planning or otherwise.
It reduces how big you can now build without going for planning.

Your new extension can only be 20 sq. M to be exempted.

Class 1
2(a)

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2001/si/600/made/en/print

That would be a problem now : (

doug82 wrote: »

It if it still used as a garage it doesn't eat into your 40sqm as a garage is not an extension.

it is still used as a garage/garden store as is what the retention was applied for in 1997.

doug82 · 20-11-2018 12:23pm

dzilla wrote: »

That would be a problem now : (

it is still used as a garage/garden store as is what the retention was applied for in 1997.

Then it doesn't reduce your exemption as a garage/store is not an extension to your house.

dzilla · 20-11-2018 12:23pm

kceire wrote: »

It does eat into your exemption, planning or otherwise.
It reduces how big you can now build without going for planning.

Your new extension can only be 20 sq. M to be exempted.

Class 1
2(a)

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2001/si/600/made/en/print

doug82 wrote: »

It if it still used as a garage it doesn't eat into your 40sqm as a garage is not an extension.

The garage is an independent structure it is not joined to the house.

dzilla · 20-11-2018 12:38pm

doug82 wrote: »

Then it doesn't reduce your exemption as a garage/store is not an extension to your house.

Thank you Doug I just called the planning office to confirm the same and they agreed.

BoardsMember · 20-11-2018 2:56pm

If you dont have 25sqm garden space, say you have 20sqm, what happens then? Do you need to keep a proportion of what you have as garden space? If you have a little over 25sqm, say 30sqm, does this mean you can only build a 5sqm extension?

doug82 · 20-11-2018 3:01pm

BoardsMember wrote: »

If you dont have 25sqm garden space, say you have 20sqm, what happens then? Do you need to keep a proportion of what you have as garden space? If you have a little over 25sqm, say 30sqm, does this mean you can only build a 5sqm extension?

If you only have 20sqm then you can't avail of the exemption. If you have 30sqm, you can build 5sqm

Gumbo · 20-11-2018 3:05pm

doug82 wrote: »

It if it still used as a garage it doesn't eat into your 40sqm as a garage is not an extension.

dzilla wrote: »

That would be a problem now : (

it is still used as a garage/garden store as is what the retention was applied for in 1997.

I was under the impression it was a converted garage attached to the house. Apologies.

cml387 · 20-11-2018 3:08pm

Out of curiosity, if a semi detached house already had a garage conversion( I.e garage attached to house now converted to living space) does this affect the size of the rear extension to be exempted.

Gumbo · 20-11-2018 3:09pm

cml387 wrote: »

Out of curiosity, if a semi detached house already had a garage conversion( I.e garage attached to house now converted to living space) does this affect the size of the rear extension to be exempted.

Yes, it reduces the 40 Sq. M by the amount of the garage conversion.

dzilla · 20-11-2018 4:30pm

kceire wrote: »

I was under the impression it was a converted garage attached to the house. Apologies.

Hi Again,

Apologies I wasn't clear. Believe it or not there is a garage internal to the house that was converted for domestic use in the 90s also, however this about 12m2 so it does not breach the 40m2 when added to the extension we are doing. Thanks so much for you input though as its all dawnting.

d

BoardsMember · 20-11-2018 8:36pm

doug82 wrote: »

If you only have 20sqm then you can't avail of the exemption. If you have 30sqm, you can build 5sqm

Thanks. So you'd need to go for planning permission for a 10sqm. Is planning likely to be given where the remaining garden < 25sqm? Considering an urban location.

doug82 · 20-11-2018 8:41pm

BoardsMember wrote: »

Thanks. So you'd need to go for planning permission for a 10sqm. Is planning likely to be given where the remaining garden < 25sqm? Considering an urban location.

It depends on location and size of the house. There would a better chance in city center than the suburbs for example

Gumbo · 20-11-2018 11:22pm

BoardsMember wrote: »

Thanks. So you'd need to go for planning permission for a 10sqm. Is planning likely to be given where the remaining garden < 25sqm? Considering an urban location.

Yes, planning can be got. It’s not an automatic refusal because of the smaller garden. Have a look at all the inner city houses, some have 90% site coverage.

But again, it’s site specific.

LauraAaron · 08-03-2020 7:19pm

Hi ðŸ‘‹ I know this is an older thread but just wondering if someone could answer for me. We’re in the process of buying a run down semi detached house there is currently an extension to the rear with a flat roof which needs pulled down and a new extension built from scratch there is 0.6 acres of garden just wondering if the 40msq still stands to the new extension we will build. Thanks xx

sydthebeat · 08-03-2020 8:00pm

LauraAaron wrote: »

Hi ðŸ‘‹ I know this is an older thread but just wondering if someone could answer for me. We’re in the process of buying a run down semi detached house there is currently an extension to the rear with a flat roof which needs pulled down and a new extension built from scratch there is 0.6 acres of garden just wondering if the 40msq still stands to the new extension we will build. Thanks xx

Hi laura
First off if the extension you are pulling down was constructed before oct 1965, it can be considered as part of the original house from a planning point of view. Therefore if you pull it down and build over the footprint it may be arguable that you can build this area, plus another 40sq m.

If the extension was post oct 1965 then this extension, plus any subsequent extension, cannot be more than 40sq m cumulatively.

If you pull this down, you can build 40sq m new.

LauraAaron · 09-03-2020 4:05pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

Hi laura
First off if the extension you are pulling down was constructed before oct 1965, it can be considered as part of the original house from a planning point of view. Therefore if you pull it down and build over the footprint it may be arguable that you can build this area, plus another 40sq m.

If the extension was post oct 1965 then this extension, plus any subsequent extension, cannot be more than 40sq m cumulatively.

If you pull this down, you can build 40sq m new.

Thankyou so much I’m 99% sure it was built after 1965 xx

Askthe EA · 29-04-2020 10:21pm

LauraAaron wrote: »

Thankyou so much I’m 99% sure it was built after 1965 xx

Check the BER register. That'll give you the build date.

sydthebeat · 29-04-2020 10:39pm

Askthe EA wrote: »

Check the BER register. That'll give you the build date.

no it wont.

Age band D will give you a range between 1950 and 1966.

That means it makes no difference to the assessor whether they put in any year of construction between 1950 and 1966.

also, the evidential requirement for a BER assessor is a lot less than someone say, offering a cert of compliance. An Assessor can make a judgement call based on a visual inspection of the construction for example.

If someone is to give a cert of exemption, they would have to check planning maps in the local authority to see of the property has been included on the maps pre 1965, or if an application was made for the development subsequent to this year.

Trusting a BER certificate to have the right date of construction for any property pre 1994 is a dodgy decision

Askthe EA · 29-04-2020 10:48pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

no it wont.

Age band D will give you a range between 1950 and 1966.

That means it makes no difference to the assessor whether they put in any year of construction between 1950 and 1966.

also, the evidential requirement for a BER assessor is a lot less than someone say, offering a cert of compliance. An Assessor can make a judgement call based on a visual inspection of the construction for example.

If someone is to give a cert of exemption, they would have to check planning maps in the local authority to see of the property has been included on the maps pre 1965, or if an application was made for the development subsequent to this year.

Trusting a BER certificate to have the right date of construction for any property pre 1994 is a dodgy decision

Absolutely, I meant an indication of the construction date.

While on that, I understood assessors used the ESB connection date as the construction date. Is that no longer the case?

sydthebeat · 29-04-2020 11:00pm

Askthe EA wrote: »

Absolutely, I meant an indication of the construction date.

While on that, I understood assessors used the ESB connection date as the construction date. Is that no longer the case?

If it's possible to check the meter box and find the year on it, then yes that's a valid piece of evidence. However I've come across many examples where the meter has been changed / updated since first construction. While it's useful to validate a year of construction, sometimes you have to disregard it if it doesnt tally with the construction ie a 1990 meter on a solid concrete terrace house.
There is a large scale upgrade of meters to smart meters occurring across the country as well.

BryanF · 30-04-2020 8:33am

Askthe EA wrote: »

Absolutely, I meant an indication of the construction date.

While on that, I understood assessors used the ESB connection date as the construction date. Is that no longer the case?

The BER assessor May not be qualified to comment on construction date

Rear extension no planning needed

Comments