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Sick leave requirements

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  • 04-06-2021 4:07pm
    #1
    karlf
    Registered Users Posts: 95 ✭✭


    I am currently out on sick leave unpaid by my employer and they have requested I go to a company appointed doctor to have my own GPs diagnosis confirmed.
    Is this a legal requirement?
    My contract states I need to be certified if out of work for more than 3 days and makes no mention of there being a second opinion required or that the company has a right to send me to a company appointed doctor for confirmation.
    I Googled this and there seems to be contracting information that states the company can if its in your contract terms and conditions.
    The company also recently sent out an employee handbook that has updated company policies which includes a selection on long term illness and sending you for a second opinion.
    There is information stating that an employee handbook can be deemed as terms and conditions if it is contained within the employee handbook that this forms part of your contract.
    I never had an employee handbook given to me when I started in the company and the emailed version I received approx 1 month ago was the first I saw of it.
    When I started I was advised that there was no employee handbook as it was in the process of being compiled.

    Can an employer introduce the employee handbook and deem the policies in it to be part of your terms and conditions?

    They also included policies on other areas that were not previously covered like Covid practice, insisting if you take a holiday you have to factor in the self isolating period as part of your holidays and a few others.

    Surely if this is not in place when you sign a contract it would be considered a change in your terms and conditions and these would have to be agreed on.

    Can anyone provide any further information?

    Thanks in advance.


Comments

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    #2
    EverythingGood
    Registered Users Posts: 2,003 ✭✭✭EverythingGood


    Can an employer introduce the employee handbook and deem the policies in it to be part of your terms and conditions?


    Yes


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    #3
    karlf
    Registered Users Posts: 95 ✭✭karlf


    EverythingGood wrote: »
    Can an employer introduce the employee handbook and deem the policies in it to be part of your terms and conditions?


    Yes

    I would have thought that this was the same as changing the terms and conditions of a contract. They have to be agreed by the employer and employee.


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    #4
    mickuhaha
    Registered Users Posts: 475 ✭✭mickuhaha


    Did you refuse the additional terms" the handbook " when they notified you? If not you may have agreed inadvertently.


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    #5
    Zebrag
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 158 ✭✭Zebrag


    Hi OP

    Many years ago I was on sick leave for 6 months then I gradually went back to work part time to ease back into full time.

    For the first 3 months my employer was very lenant and accepted my weekly certs from my GP but eventually I knew the company doc would need to be seen too. Although they kindly let me go 3 months without a company docs agreement, legally after a certain time (3 weeks I think) my own GP certs would have to be moved onto the company doc to prove to them that my reasons for sick leave was necessary. I spoke to a company doc once with the proof of my own GPs letter (followed by a hospital and psychiatrics letter) The doc didn't need anymore proof from myself personally as those letters were proof enough to show that I was not mentally and physically able to work for the time being.

    Another 3 months later and due to my GP and psychiatrist positiveness that I was able to return to work on shorter hours for a short time, I saw the company doc again to inform them of the updates, how I was feeling etc and he was happy enough to accept that I was able to return to work on the request that my hours were reduced for a short time, it was another 3 months before I was able to return to full time. The company doc was just happy to be able to give my employer a correct and direct follow up and everyone was happy.

    That being said my employer could have easily rejected everything and not continue my employment due to the fact that my position could have easily been given to someone on a lower wage but again, they didn't pay me after my sick days were gone (which is 10 days pay) so they sort of "left me alone" in a way.

    Your company doc is there for that reason only, to back up your employer. That's not to say that they won't agree or disagree with your own GP (and further assistance) as there have been other cases in my employment with staff going to their own GP and company doc both have disagreed with each other and in all the years I've worked with my employer, only one case was dismissed and contract terminated (this is down to various reasons and the termination was agreed by everyone in the end) From what I know certain criteras have to be met and its carefully discussed and followed up by the companies policy.

    It's not a case of, the company doesn't believe you personally but they also have to ensure that their employees are full filling their positions and if they can find someone else to do it (possibly for less wage if that's the case) then they will go through their own avenues to make sure everyone's needs and correct advice is given but it also backs them up as (I'm not saying this is true for you) but there's also been cases where people can take the pi&& to put it bluntly and that's more of an effort than trying to direct an employee to a company doc.

    Follow the correct procedure and policy and you'll be safe. If your employer wants you to do a follow up with a company doc then do it, for your own sake and back up. Be aware that some company docs might not agree with your own GP so be prepared to follow every policy and procedure to make sure you're doing the right thing. It might be a case that the company just wants two opinions to keep themselves accountable which is absolutely fine.

    You're doing nothing wrong but do everything right as well. It can be an added stress you don't necessarily need, at the end of the day, your position in your employer can be deemed important that they need you and often can be replaced if you're out for too long. There's too many legal jargons to get into but the simple fact of it is, your company has the right to direct you to a company doc after a certain length of time.

    Good luck OP

    Just to edit: My employee handbook states that after the 10 days sick pay (whether its seperate or in a row) a report and discussion will be needed (as in "are you fit to work" "was the illness bad" etc) then it also states that continous GP notes will be followed by the company docs IF required (which states that it's up to the company to decide if the employees illness or out of work certs is okay after a certain length of time to refer to company doc)


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    #6
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    karlf wrote: »
    I would have thought that this was the same as changing the terms and conditions of a contract. They have to be agreed by the employer and employee.

    A few years ago we brought in a Company Handbook and we had concerns around getting the employees to agree to the terms of it. Guidance at the time (which may have changed) was that if they didn't formally push back and continued to work there that was taken as their acceptance of the handbook being a condition of their employment.

    Re. the company doctor issue is it really in your interests to push back on this? Do you see yourself returning to this employer at some point?


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    #7
    slavetothegrind
    Registered Users Posts: 2,789 ✭✭✭slavetothegrind


    Are you saying if the company produces a document stating X if the employee does not actively oppose it, not just not sign up to or agree to it, they thereby are deemed to accept it?


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    #8
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    In that instance with that particular document yes. Just to clarify it was an Employee Handbook with nothing particularly contentious in it, no chopping of salaries, increasing of working hours, reducing paid leave entitlements etc. but there were some changes to how things were to be done which would affect the employees, similar to the OP's post. We had advice from group HR and group Legal and it was considered tacit approval if employees had the opportunity to object and elected not to.


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    #9
    Darc19
    Registered Users Posts: 3,817 ✭✭✭Darc19


    What are you afraid of?

    The company appointed go can only comment on the specific ailment you have.


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    #10
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    "Company Doctor"

    This is a misnomer. A doctor will not misdiagnose you and say you are not ill if you are. No doctor will do this as a 'favour' to a company.

    Whereas your own GP can often err on the side of caution, and certify ill even if they think it unlikely.

    So, the only difference between the two is that the company doctor is likely to be more impartial.

    After a month of receiving the new handbook and if you or your union didn't reply with issues it could be deemed as implied acceptance. To remove any doubt I got all employees to sign up when I introduced an employee handbook.

    However, regardless, a company can lay off an employee (not make redundant) if they are absent for a prolonged period of time.

    So, if you are ill just get it confirmed as per your own GP. The more you push back the more likely they will implement action to lay you off. The type of illness should remain confidential, get that confirmed in writing if an issue.

    As for the issue with the Covid policy.... really?


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    #11
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Darc19 wrote: »
    What are you afraid of?

    The company appointed go can only comment on the specific ailment you have.


    The existing doctor's cert may not specify the reason for absence, just say unfit for work.


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