Political parties who are fighting for stricter immigration control

horsesfc88 · 16-05-2014 6:30pm #1

Which political parties are pushing for a stricter more controlled immigration policy?

Cheers

comongethappy · 16-05-2014 6:44pm

horsesfc88 wrote: »

Which political parties are pushing for a stricter more controlled immigration policy?

Cheers

None of the established parties are AFAIK.

The national independence party are a bit 'Ireland for the Irish', but are on the fringes of the fringe.

horsesfc88 · 16-05-2014 6:46pm

comongethappy wrote: »

None of the established parties are AFAIK.

The national independence party are a bit 'Ireland for the Irish', but are on the fringes of the fringe.

I take it they aren't running in the upcoming elections so?

Is there none that even want slightly stricter control? I find it mind boggling that no party is pushing for it

Amirani · 16-05-2014 11:12pm

horsesfc88 wrote: »

I take it they aren't running in the upcoming elections so?

Is there none that even want slightly stricter control? I find it mind boggling that no party is pushing for it

We already have one of the lowest rates of asylum in Europe. Not all that mind boggling really.

yosser hughes · 16-05-2014 11:20pm

Diego Simeone wrote: »

We already have one of the lowest rates of asylum in Europe. Not all that mind boggling really.

Who mentioned asylum? Immigration and asylum are two different things.

harney · 16-05-2014 11:25pm

horsesfc88 wrote: »

Which political parties are pushing for a stricter more controlled immigration policy?

Cheers

UKIP?

comongethappy · 16-05-2014 11:27pm

harney wrote: »

UKIP?

Poor presence thus far in Ireland though.

Amirani · 17-05-2014 8:26am

yosser hughes wrote: »

Who mentioned asylum? Immigration and asylum are two different things.

Most migrants coming to Ireland are either asylum seekers, EU citizens or highly skilled workers. Which of these 3 do you think is too prevalent? Bearing in mind that we have a very low level of asylum, EU citizens have a legal right to migrate here and we have a shortage of skilled workers in certain areas.

yosser hughes · 17-05-2014 8:42am

Diego Simeone wrote: »

Most migrants coming to Ireland are either asylum seekers, EU citizens or highly skilled workers. Which of these 3 do you think is too prevalent? Bearing in mind that we have a very low level of asylum, EU citizens have a legal right to migrate here and we have a shortage of skilled workers in certain areas.

You were the one to bring up asylum, nobody else did.
With regard to immigration, the skills shortage is debatable and is often manipulated to drive down wages.That may be for another thread.
However the prevalence of non-eu citizens in low skilled work is high. That's just a fact. I actually have no issue with anyone who wants to come here to work and does work. I do however have an issue with that happening purely for employers to cut their costs and increase profits. It seems bizarre that we have able bodied young men and women either emigrating or on the dole while these jobs are available. They should be required to take these jobs if they are reluctant to do so.
The whole work permit/student visa thing needs to be looked at. It is being abused,again by employers.

Reformed Character · 17-05-2014 8:55am

yosser hughes wrote: »

You were the one to bring up asylum, nobody else did.
With regard to immigration, the skills shortage is debatable and is often manipulated to drive down wages.That may be for another thread.
However the prevalence of non-eu citizens in low skilled work is high. That's just a fact. I actually have no issue with anyone who wants to come here to work and does work. I do however have an issue with that happening purely for employers to cut their costs and increase profits. It seems bizarre that we have able bodied young men and women either emigrating or on the dole while these jobs are available. They should be required to take these jobs if they are reluctant to do so.
The whole work permit/student visa thing needs to be looked at. It is being abused,again by employers.

Yosser, there is very little if any, empirical data to suggest that immigration has or will drive down wages.
Indeed in our case , when immigration was at its highest rates, wages actually rose at their highest rate.r

Forest Demon · 17-05-2014 9:30am

There is growing resistance to immigration in Europe. Its a shame that people cannot have an honest debate on the issue. the conventional judgments made in political debate and media have interpreted the increased anti-immigrant sentiment as the result of xenophobia, racism, a new sympathy for the authoritarian far right.

We have no real policy or legislation to control adaptation and assimilation, and the myriad of social problems produced by large-scale migration from one civilization to another. It won't end well as it has not in other countries.

We want the right type of immigrant. Nothing to do with nationality or skin color but skill based immigration. Low skilled immigration and welfare migrants do nothing for Ireland except creating pressures on housing, health, education and other public services because the simple truth is that they don't pay their way and become a cost to the economy rather than a contributor.

Its a complex issue and will be resolved based on actions of the British, French, Scandinavian and Germans in the end. Ireland's politicians will scuttle along behind and jump on the coat tails of reformed European policy. That way we can be seen as neutral and not at all racist be God.

Amirani · 17-05-2014 10:17am

yosser hughes wrote: »

It seems bizarre that we have able bodied young men and women either emigrating or on the dole while these jobs are available. They should be required to take these jobs if they are reluctant to do so.

What? You're suggesting that people should be forced to take jobs and not allowed to emigrate? No thanks, I'm looking forward to going and working abroad for a while as it happens.

Amirani · 17-05-2014 10:39am

Forest Demon wrote: »

We want the right type of immigrant. Nothing to do with nationality or skin color but skill based immigration. Low skilled immigration and welfare migrants do nothing for Ireland except creating pressures on housing, health, education and other public services because the simple truth is that they don't pay their way and become a cost to the economy rather than a contributor.

It's all well and good saying these things, and most will agree with you. However, if you look at the statistics in the UK and Ireland, you'll find already that there's considerably lower levels of unemployment amongst immigrants than within natives.

There may be some merit to strong industrial countries such as the UK and Germany looking at their immigration policies, they have reasonable unemployment rates and are attractive to migrants. Ireland is not an attractive destination right now, this is reflected in our high levels of net outward migration. Even in terms of the immigrants that are received, I think Ireland is being very selective at present.

Firstly, looking at the type of migrants received, Ireland is generally receives relatively little, but those it does are relatively highly educated:

In terms of welfare dependence, Ireland's migrants also are way down the list:

Doing a regression analysis on these dependencies further highlights Ireland's situation:

Source for all of this is the EU's Study on active inclusion of migrants: http://ec.europa.eu/social/BlobServlet?docId=7305&langId=en

desbrook · 17-05-2014 10:40am

Diego Simeone wrote: »

What? You're suggesting that people should be forced to take jobs and not allowed to emigrate? No thanks, I'm looking forward to going and working abroad for a while as it happens.

No he's suggesting that somewhere in the 400,000 "unemployed " are people who could and should take those jobs.

Amirani · 17-05-2014 10:49am

desbrook wrote: »

No he's suggesting that somewhere in the 400,000 "unemployed " are people who could and should take those jobs.

He used the phrase: "should be required to take these jobs".

That doesn't sound very optional, though maybe it was just a poor use of language on the OP's part.

yosser hughes · 17-05-2014 11:15am

Diego Simeone wrote: »

He used the phrase: "should be required to take these jobs".

That doesn't sound very optional, though maybe it was just a poor use of language on the OP's part.

Yes, I phrased it badly, but I think you knew very well what I meant.

cavedave · 17-05-2014 9:46pm

Forest Demon

We have no real policy or legislation to control adaptation and assimilation, and the myriad of social problems produced by large-scale migration from one civilization to another. It won't end well as it has not in other countries.

Because the US in the late nineteenth and earliest twentieth century ended so badly? I've heard people claim the multicultural experiment has failed. Presumably they can tell this by looking at the control subject, North Korea. The amazing success story of uniculturism.

Manach · 17-05-2014 9:55pm

Diego Simeone wrote: »

Bearing in mind that we have a very low level of asylum, EU citizens have a legal right to migrate here and we have a shortage of skilled workers in certain areas.

On that latter point, it could be argued there is a shortage of skilled non-EU workers who are willing to work at the correct (ie low) wage. The relevant minister has recently proposed changes to the work-permit scheme to allow influx of these skilled workers. Based on a comparison with how the US scheme work (AFAIR from ./), this will lead to flat-lining wages for EU workers in those professions whilst an increase in company profits. This can be held as an ideal example of industry lobbyist influencing government policy for their own interests.

yosser hughes · 17-05-2014 10:11pm

Manach wrote: »

On that latter point, it could be argued there is a shortage of skilled non-EU workers who are willing to work at the correct (ie low) wage. The relevant minister has recently proposed changes to the work-permit scheme to allow influx of these skilled workers. Based on a comparison with how the US scheme work (AFAIR from ./), this will lead to flat-lining wages for EU workers in those professions whilst an increase in company profits. This can be held as an ideal example of industry lobbyist influencing government policy for their own interests.

Yep, here's one of those lobby groups:
http://www.openireland.com/the-issues/open-borders-for-tech-talent/

The funny thing is, that those of a mostly left of centre persuasion are all for open borders. This plays directly in to the hands sectoral business interests and erodes the rights of the workers they purport to represent. It also will erode conditions of migrants already established and settled.
The eventual outcomes are things like zero hours contracts and minimal protection such as redundancy,health etc.

oscarBravo · 18-05-2014 1:39am

yosser hughes wrote: »

The funny thing is, that those of a mostly left of centre persuasion are all for open borders. This plays directly in to the hands sectoral business interests and erodes the rights of the workers they purport to represent.

We must never forget that resounding Marxist slogan: "workers of the world, unite [with other workers from your own country, and f*ck the foreigners]!"

yosser hughes · 18-05-2014 11:27am

oscarBravo wrote: »

We must never forget that resounding Marxist slogan: "workers of the world, unite [with other workers from your own country, and f*ck the foreigners]!"

Well indeed! Members of Unions here tend to unite for themselves and couldn't give a toss about their fellow citizens who aren't in the same club as them.
Multi-culturism to these people means having a nice ethnic restaurant down the road from them in Ranelagh(or whatever middle class suburb they live in), having a cheap child minder; without wondering who looks after the child minder's kids . They still cling to their Marxist slogans though. I suppose it's worked out alright for them. It's not a Marxism or even Socialism I recognise. The delineations of left and right are not set in stone and the left need to wake up to that fact and actually do some thinking for themselves. Then again maybe they prefer dogma to free thinking.
However if you're happy to have NO debate on immigration; that includes negatives as well as the positives, or you'd rather me a smug smartarse; then good luck with that. I'm out.

rgossip30 · 18-05-2014 3:16pm

Diego Simeone wrote: »

It's all well and good saying these things, and most will agree with you. However, if you look at the statistics in the UK and Ireland, you'll find already that there's considerably lower levels of unemployment amongst immigrants than within natives.

There may be some merit to strong industrial countries such as the UK and Germany looking at their immigration policies, they have reasonable unemployment rates and are attractive to migrants. Ireland is not an attractive destination right now, this is reflected in our high levels of net outward migration. Even in terms of the immigrants that are received, I think Ireland is being very selective at present.

The document is out of date and charts are from 2007. The Irish economy and labour market has changed considerably !!!

rgossip30 · 18-05-2014 3:20pm

Diego Simeone wrote: »

It's all well and good saying these things, and most will agree with you. However, if you look at the statistics in the UK and Ireland, you'll find already that there's considerably lower levels of unemployment amongst immigrants than within natives.

There may be some merit to strong industrial countries such as the UK and Germany looking at their immigration policies, they have reasonable unemployment rates and are attractive to migrants. Ireland is not an attractive destination right now, this is reflected in our high levels of net outward migration. Even in terms of the immigrants that are received, I think Ireland is being very selective at present.

Firstly, looking at the type of migrants received, Ireland is generally receives relatively little, but those it does are relatively highly educated:

The document is out of date and the charts are from 2007 .I think you would agree the Irish economy and labour market has changed considerably.

Forest Demon · 18-05-2014 4:38pm

Diego Simeone wrote: »

It's all well and good saying these things, and most will agree with you. However, if you look at the statistics in the UK and Ireland, you'll find already that there's considerably lower levels of unemployment amongst immigrants than within natives.

This is not true in Ireland. Its the other way round.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/eu-citizens-enjoy-very-generous-welfare-here-247744.html

This is reflected in Ireland where 17.7% of migrants from other EU countries are unemployed, as opposed to 14.5% of Irish people and the EU average 12.6% of migrants.

According to the European Commission report, EU migrants are more likely than nationals to be unemployed, with Britain and Czech Republic the only exceptions.

Arthur Beesley · 18-05-2014 5:39pm

horsesfc88 wrote: »

I take it they aren't running in the upcoming elections so?

Is there none that even want slightly stricter control? I find it mind boggling that no party is pushing for it

Too afraid to be branded as racists I'm afraid.

ressem · 18-05-2014 10:27pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

We must never forget that resounding Marxist slogan: "workers of the world, unite [with other workers from your own country, and f*ck the foreigners]!"

If you create an easy recruitment workflow for a HR department, is there a likelihood that they will choose it rather than the piecemeal recruitment through FAS or EU recruitment etc.

In Gort, the Duffy Meat plant just found it easier to hire hundreds of workers experienced at working in a factory that had closed in Anapolis, Brazil. And a few years later 40% of Gort's population were Brazilian.

Then the plant closes. Is the town in a better state than had the plant never existed? Yes, probably but it's for better minds than mine to come up with an analysis.

expectationlost · 19-05-2014 12:34am

yosser hughes wrote: »

Yep, here's one of those lobby groups:
http://www.openireland.com/the-issues/open-borders-for-tech-talent/

The funny thing is, that those of a mostly left of centre persuasion are all for open borders. This plays directly in to the hands sectoral business interests and erodes the rights of the workers they purport to represent. It also will erode conditions of migrants already established and settled.
The eventual outcomes are things like zero hours contracts and minimal protection such as redundancy,health etc.

no the lefts main aim is raising standards of work

personally raising standards of work is the key issue, it may actually lead to a little less immgration which is okay with me aslong as we always work to raise standards of work elsewhere too

rgossip30 · 19-05-2014 11:03am

Forest Demon wrote: »

This is not true in Ireland. Its the other way round.

This is reflected in Ireland where 17.7% of migrants from other EU countries are unemployed, as opposed to 14.5% of Irish people and the EU average 12.6% of migrants.

According to the European Commission report, EU migrants are more likely than nationals to be unemployed, with Britain and Czech Republic the only exceptions.

EU migrants getting non contributory pensions when they have not lived here or worked is another problem. The elderly parents of those EU citizens living here is an example .When the pension is established they can move back home and still claim !!
I did see a draft document of proposed changes to the Immigration Bill to address this.

19-05-2014 2:12pm

I am surprised that the immigration control platform still exists: http://www.immigrationcontrol.org
It isn't a political party though.
Justin Barrett stood in 2004.

Political parties who are fighting for stricter immigration control

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