GE2020: Kildare North

L1011 · 15-05-2020 8:20am

Leap90 etc can be extended to BE/GAI buses for less cost, effort and disruption than providing slow city buses to a town that's far too far out to be served with slow city buses.

It would cost a massive amount in subsidy, which is why there is a limit to how far its offered and that appears to what you aren't understanding. Its not operation by Dublin Bus that determines where it goes to; its a decision by the NTA. DB legacy routes from the steam tram era (All the Wicklow hills ones) are not really relevant here.

You are basically chasing the crap option (city buses) not the proper option (extension of Leap90 and the GDA fare areas to BE/GAI). There is zero guarantee that DB would actually charge GDA fares if service was introduced to Naas anyway.

pad199207 · 15-05-2020 9:48am

City Buses in Naas this morning. They are more than ideal for the the Naas/Sallins area.

L1011 · 15-05-2020 9:56am

For going between Naas and Sallins, yes.

They are completely unsuited to the distance to Dublin. They're limited to 65km/h.

As soon as you go to coaches the operating cost skyrockets

Calling for Dublin Bus to be extended to Naas is a ridiculous idea based on the assumption that the fares and the operator are inherently linked; when they aren't. DB to Naas could easily be excluded from the existing fare structure for instance. What people need to be calling for is the fare structure to be extended to the BE/GAI commuter routes instead.

a very cool kid · 15-05-2020 12:05pm

I've found James Lawless to be pretty good on the Sallins train issues.

He gets the train to Dublin himself so is well aware of the capacity constraints etc. With FF in government he'll be in a position to actually do something about it hopefully (they got Naas into the short hop zone for the train previously).

In terms of my own two cents - Dublin Bus to Naas only works with the spped limits if it goes through Rathcoole, Saggart Kill, Johnstown etc and doesn't really go down the N7 (similar to the Maynooth buses going through Celbridge, Leixlip and Lucan). That would mean the journey taking hours (ever get a bus from town to the square in Tallaght?!).

All these issues really show I think is why we should have just gotten on with the old Transport 21 plan! (Expansion of the DART through Kildare!)

MaccaTacca · 15-05-2020 6:13pm

Tomrota wrote: »

Oh sorry, 27,50€ per week cap on Dublin bus. I’m a student so it’s 20€, my mistake. 27€ is still more than half of the 70€+ you’d be paying using the “commuter coaches”. I know all about this because I used them for years. For the final year of my degree, I bought a car to save me money and time cause the transport was too expensive for what you’re getting. 70€ to UCD every week, no thanks.

The buses are limited to 65km/h, yes. Are the people of Maynooth and Greystones complaining? Do you see people from Greystones flocking to the Wicklow commuter coach service? Nope. I have used the commuter Bus Eireann service so many times and a Bus Eireann city bus showed up, and it was still in Naas in under an hour. Dunno where you’re getting the 2.5 hours from. 84X is an interesting route, goes way way further than Naas distance. I never quite got why city buses are suited to go galavanting around the Wicklow mountains (184, 183, 65, etc) yet they are not suited for the N7 corridor. They are suited to literally every other town of equal size/distance on the commuter belt, not Naas.

I (and many I know) have contacted all the TD’s and the NTA. They said that it’s not in the Dublin bus network so there’s nothing that can be done. So you can get from Ballyknockan in the middle of the Wicklow mountains for cheaper than Naas. Lovely. The NTA and the TD’s don’t care. If the 126 was integrated into the Dublin bus network fare, great. It still wouldn’t be reliable, it still wouldn’t arrive on time, but at least it would be affordable.

I’m sorry if I come off as aggressive, but I hate when people try to defend the abysmal transport in Naas. Fine, it’s crap, I accept that but then at least make it the same price of equivalent sized/distance towns. Having slaved away at this transport system for college, it has honestly made me drop out at times. And then seeing my friends from Maynooth or Bray (theoretically newtownmountkennedy, Newcastle, balbriggan, etc) being capped at 20€ is just SO frustrating you have no idea. Like why are all these random places (Balbriggan, Newcastle, co. Wicklow, Ballymore Eustace) further from the city on the Dublin bus network but not Naas which is 30km from the city and a way larger population? Doesn’t make any sense to me. Never has. Never will. Not worth double/tripple price increase.

Parts of Bray are in county Dublin. The northern parts of which are less than 18km from the city centre.

That N11 corridor which starts at Bray is probably the most populated and continuously built up part of Dublin / Ireland.

Naas should probably have Dublin Bus, but there is kilometres of greenfields between it and Rathcoole.

Comparing Naas to Maynooth and Greystones is probably fair enough, but Bray always has and pronably always will be the best served commuter town of the the Dublin area.

Tomrota · 15-05-2020 6:25pm

L1011 wrote: »

Leap90 etc can be extended to BE/GAI buses for less cost, effort and disruption than providing slow city buses to a town that's far too far out to be served with slow city buses.

It would cost a massive amount in subsidy, which is why there is a limit to how far its offered and that appears to what you aren't understanding. Its not operation by Dublin Bus that determines where it goes to; its a decision by the NTA. DB legacy routes from the steam tram era (All the Wicklow hills ones) are not really relevant here.

You are basically chasing the crap option (city buses) not the proper option (extension of Leap90 and the GDA fare areas to BE/GAI). There is zero guarantee that DB would actually charge GDA fares if service was introduced to Naas anyway.

What you say makes sense. But what I’m telling you is that both the NTA and TD’s have said to me (and many others I know) that the prices are the way they are for the sole reason that it’s not in the Dublin Bus Network and therefore it’s not possible to change them in the current system. And as they are also not in the BusConnects network, it will also be terrible then unless you know something I do not? AND therefore, people of Naas are heavily disadvantaged relative to those in Greystones, Maynooth, or Blessington as a result (people have to think in advance about cost of journeys, people can’t catch connection busses due to cost, college students not going to certain Universities, people choosing to drive instead, etc etc.).

Imagine you’re a student living in Kill trying to get to Maynooth. You first have to take a 126 and then you have to take a 139. This can cost over 70€ per week. This is the reality of the situation.

It’s also funny to hear people praising the quality of the commuter coach service when I’ve experienced first hand, having lived in both Naas and Greystones, what I would rather have. By far. (I’ve had white coaches turn up with “126” written on a piece of A4 paper countless time’s for example).

GavMan · 18-05-2020 2:00pm

Tomrota wrote: »

What you say makes sense. But what I’m telling you is that both the NTA and TD’s have said to me (and many others I know) that the prices are the way they are for the sole reason that it’s not in the Dublin Bus Network and therefore it’s not possible to change them in the current system. And as they are also not in the BusConnects network, it will also be terrible then unless you know something I do not? AND therefore, people of Naas are heavily disadvantaged relative to those in Greystones, Maynooth, or Blessington as a result (people have to think in advance about cost of journeys, people can’t catch connection busses due to cost, college students not going to certain Universities, people choosing to drive instead, etc etc.).

Imagine you’re a student living in Kill trying to get to Maynooth. You first have to take a 126 and then you have to take a 139. This can cost over 70€ per week. This is the reality of the situation.

It’s also funny to hear people praising the quality of the commuter coach service when I’ve experienced first hand, having lived in both Naas and Greystones, what I would rather have. By far. (I’ve had white coaches turn up with “126” written on a piece of A4 paper countless time’s for example).

I think you're missing the point. You say the fares are as they are because Naas is not served by the DB network and hence the fare structure.

However, the reality is that if DB turned out tomorrow and said, we want to service Naas and Sallins with a new route, it would not be a given that the DB far structure as you know it now would apply to that route because DB do not set the fare. The NTA set the fair and for all you know they could stick their finger in the wind and say the leap cap is €60 on that route. Not quite the saving you imagined versus private coaches. But now you're stuck with inappropriate vehicles that are limited to 65kph

You may have been fobbed off with the answer that fares are high because you are outside of the DB network but that is not reality.

Tomrota · 18-05-2020 9:38pm

GavMan wrote: »

I think you're missing the point. You say the fares are as they are because Naas is not served by the DB network and hence the fare structure.

However, the reality is that if DB turned out tomorrow and said, we want to service Naas and Sallins with a new route, it would not be a given that the DB far structure as you know it now would apply to that route because DB do not set the fare. The NTA set the fair and for all you know they could stick their finger in the wind and say the leap cap is €60 on that route. Not quite the saving you imagined versus private coaches. But now you're stuck with inappropriate vehicles that are limited to 65kph

You may have been fobbed off with the answer that fares are high because you are outside of the DB network but that is not reality.

Of course I'm being fobbed off because the NTA themselves don't even know what the rationale behind their own fares is.

From an NTA official:

Part of the rationale behind adjustments in fares is to ensure that all public transport passengers pay a fare that reflects the distance travelled.

Bus fares [in the GDA] are determined by a combination of distance travelled and the Short Hop Zone (SHZ).

LEAP supported facilities such as capping currently apply to bus and rail services within the SHZ. The software which currently supports LEAP capping has limitations that prevent its use beyond the SHZ.
They've contradicted themselves in all three of the these bullet points.
1. No... Fares do not reflect the distance travelled, as I've already mentioned in previous posts Naas is far closer or equidistant to other areas currently being served by Dublin Bus services and Dublin Bus fare structure.

2. No they are not determined by distance or whether a town is in the SHZ. There are many Dublin Bus routes that disprove this entire point. Also, do the NTA not know Naas is in the SHZ and closer to the city than many of these other routes?

3. Again... Naas is in the SHZ. This reads like "basically you're being overcharged cause software". What? If the software can't provide caps on the commuter buses, then maybe change the overpriced fare and then implement caps ASAP? What a joke.

Also there is such a big deal about the use of city buses... So many times Bus Eireann used a city bus for this route (and still overcharged us) and it made very little difference to the time of the journey. About 5/6 mins max? The 126 spends about 12km at speeds of over 65km/h going about 80-90km/h. A route 69X could be provided for Naas/Kill/Rathcoole as a route for those who want to be capped and transfer buses without financial penalty. Then we'd see which bus would be more popular, and I am certain it would be the one that has caps and 90 discount. Also, could someone please answer me as to why route 184 has Dublin Bus fare structure and does not even enter Dublin? Why is a Wicklow bus route using Dublin City fares? That disproves everything the NTA are saying.

The only conclusion I can draw from the exchanges with the NTA/politicians is that JJ Kavanagh or some private operator who are making an absolute fortune overcharging students are lobbying to keep fares as they are. NTA director Anne Graham states that the NTA aims to "allow seamless movement between different transport services without financial penalty".... unless you're in Naas. 70€ from Kill to Maynooth per week via 126 and 139. What a mess. People assume everyone is going to the city centre, do people realise that many who work or study in Dublin aren't actually going to the city centre and have to take a subsequent bus? This goes over 15€ per day with a LEAP card, much worse with cash.

If fares were a little little more expensive in Naas, I would say "okay that's not right but I can live with it" but the reality of the situation is that students (and adults) are paying up to 4x the price. Thats not justice, that's discrimination. And not one TD, person on this forum, or the NTA can give me an explanation (that makes sense) as to why that is.

Scoundrel · 21-05-2020 2:39pm

L1011 wrote: »

No, she specifically said Luas. Also wants Dublin Bus back to Kilcock when the BE service is faster.

Electrification to Maynooth is under advanced planning and Celbridge not quite so advanced.

The BE is hilariously unreliable

L1011 · 21-05-2020 4:15pm

Scoundrel wrote: »

The BE is hilariously unreliable

So's the 66.

Extending city buses is not the way to fix problems with the 115. Never was never will be.

Tomrota wrote: »

If fares were a little little more expensive in Naas, I would say "okay that's not right but I can live with it" but the reality of the situation is that students (and adults) are paying up to 4x the price. Thats not justice, that's discrimination. And not one TD, person on this forum, or the NTA can give me an explanation (that makes sense) as to why that is.

The answer was given - any changes will require a huge amount of subsidy to be put in place and nobody wants to do that. So would extending DB service. Fare income would drop massively overnight and realistically would never be made up by increased usage so it has to come from the state. Dublin fare area fares already have the required level of subsidy.

It can be done - the extension of Dublin area train fares to Sallins and Kilcock required huge increases to subsidies also, but they were given and they happened.

marieholmfan · 22-05-2020 5:15pm

Scoundrel wrote: »

The BE is hilariously unreliable

It's quite reliable. It should be compared with actual exurban Dublin Bus services (I would be surprised if there are any as far from O'Connell Street as Kilcock - but I accept that there may be several that are nearly as far.)

Look at the likes of Ongar, Greystones , Kilmacanogue etc.
Then also consider the relative levels of comfort and actual time to arrive in central Dublin.

I can't help but feel the following and these are just my feelings:

The people who want Dublin Bus extended to Kilcock fall into 2 categories
1 Dubliners who imagine for some baffling reason that the same service will be provided to Kilcock that was to Ballyfermot.

2 Kildare people who get Dublin Buses when they are in Dublin and imagine the same service would exist from Kilcock as does from Amiens street.

Remember follks about half the population is of below average intelligence. Even in Kilcock it must be a third.

Scoundrel · 28-05-2020 3:39pm

marieholmfan wrote: »

It's quite reliable. It should be compared with actual exurban Dublin Bus services (I would be surprised if there are any as far from O'Connell Street as Kilcock - but I accept that there may be several that are nearly as far.)

Look at the likes of Ongar, Greystones , Kilmacanogue etc.
Then also consider the relative levels of comfort and actual time to arrive in central Dublin.

I can't help but feel the following and these are just my feelings:

The people who want Dublin Bus extended to Kilcock fall into 2 categories
1 Dubliners who imagine for some baffling reason that the same service will be provided to Kilcock that was to Ballyfermot.

2 Kildare people who get Dublin Buses when they are in Dublin and imagine the same service would exist from Kilcock as does from Amiens street.

Remember follks about half the population is of below average intelligence. Even in Kilcock it must be a third.

I get what you mean and there are people in Kilcock who think that the whole worlds problems would be solved by the 66 going onto Kilcock but my expierence of the 115 is that it's unreliable at best.

L1011 · 27-06-2020 8:35pm

Vincent Martin has been now been appointed to the Seanad.

Anthony Lawlor has not. Didn't run in the Seanad election so was very much an outside chance for an FG pick.

mloc123 · 09-08-2020 8:22pm

Off topic... maybe this could be the general north Kildare thread?

How have we got lumped in with those south Kildare people again?

L1011 · 09-08-2020 9:08pm

Naas is in Kildare North and is affected, as is part of Timahoe I think.

The three/four (Kilcock is borderline) towns in the North East really need to be seen as Not Kildare for everything except GAA.

BaronVon · 10-08-2020 2:30am

L1011 wrote: »

Naas is in Kildare North and is affected, as is part of Timahoe I think.

The three/four (Kilcock is borderline) towns in the North East really need to be seen as Not Kildare for everything except GAA.

Yeah, back to the Baronies. Counties are far too big and diverse!!

maxwell smart · 10-08-2020 11:08am

Patser · 12-08-2020 4:36pm

Slightly on/off topic -

Given the current lock down, interesting to see Lawless tweeting away (although having pointless spat with SF at times), looking active, on radio

Cronin, tweeting away, meeting businesses, sniping a bit but so what, on radio

Murphy, out meeting people and businesses, tweeting and retweeting, on radio

Durkan - nothing, not a single comment

And I say this as someone who gave him number 1 last election

Edit: and typical, as soon as I post I see he's tweeted 30 mins ago.....

L1011 · 12-08-2020 8:27pm

Durkan's been mostly anonymous in the Dáil for 40 years!

mloc123 · 13-08-2020 11:23am

Bring Frank back... I can imagine the photo ops now, him in full PPE fighting covid

L1011 · 13-08-2020 11:29am

On the side of every trailer in every building site

Orion · 14-08-2020 3:14pm

mloc123 wrote: »

Bring Frank back... I can imagine the photo ops now, him in full PPE fighting covid

No thanks. And with his interview in the Champion after losing his seat he needed both even running in Celbridge again.

ghostdancer · 15-08-2020 12:11pm

Patser wrote: »

Slightly on/off topic -

Given the current lock down, interesting to see Lawless tweeting away (although having pointless spat with SF at times), looking active, on radio

Cronin, tweeting away, meeting businesses, sniping a bit but so what, on radio

Murphy, out meeting people and businesses, tweeting and retweeting, on radio

Durkan - nothing, not a single comment

And I say this as someone who gave him number 1 last election

Edit: and typical, as soon as I post I see he's tweeted 30 mins ago.....

I'd be more inclined to vote for him so.
Politicians banging on on twitter all day is the last thing I want. Reada Cronin seems to spend more time on her phone retweeting crap than actually doing any work.

mloc123 · 16-08-2020 10:30am

Kilcock, celbridge and leixlip getting a very raw deal... This is the number of additional cases in the past 2 months

L1011 · 16-08-2020 1:02pm

Did they add the two DEDs for Celbridge? Celbridge and Donaghcumper. Very easy to miss there's the second one.

mloc123 · 16-08-2020 6:16pm

L1011 wrote: »

Did they add the two DEDs for Celbridge? Celbridge and Donaghcumper. Very easy to miss there's the second one.

Somebody had included in a follow up post. IIRC donaghcumper had no additional cases since June.. still on 55 (I think)

28-11-2020 11:52am

Frank has taken twitter and facebook to court over untrue and defamatory posts about his private life during the campaign.

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/former-td-claims-he-was-defamed-in-social-media-posts-prior-to-election-1043220.html

What are the chances of him getting the actual posters identities?

anewme · 28-11-2020 12:00pm

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

Frank has taken twitter and facebook to court over untrue and defamatory posts about his private life during the campaign.

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/former-td-claims-he-was-defamed-in-social-media-posts-prior-to-election-1043220.html

What are the chances of him getting the actual posters identities?

Very strong, I’d say if the Lisa’s Lust List court case is anything to go by.

I hope the cowards are weeded out and dealt with.

28-11-2020 12:38pm

Thanks Anewme, I hadn't heard of that case before, I had to google, its quite serious despite the name.

buffalo · 16-12-2020 2:35pm

Case is ongoing: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/high-court/facebook-indicates-difficulties-complying-with-order-sought-by-former-ff-td-alleging-defamation-1.4437789

Facebook has not been provided with a Uniform Resource Locator (URL) or web address regarding an allegedly defamatory post made about the former TD on Facebook, he said.

Facebook requires the URL so it identify the alleged poster and comply with orders concerning the account, he said

anewme · 16-12-2020 2:38pm

Facebook is definitely shrugging its shoulders and he is right to pursue it.

buffalo · 16-12-2020 2:57pm

anewme wrote: »

Facebook is definitely shrugging its shoulders and he is right to pursue it.

If all he has is 'someone called Tony Lynch said something bad about me', but can't identify the post or the poster, it's a needle in a haystack for Facebook. I wonder if he has a screenshot or even the exact wording of the post?

anewme · 16-12-2020 3:01pm

buffalo wrote: »

If all he has is 'someone called Tony Lynch said something bad about me', but can't identify the post or the poster, it's a needle in a haystack for Facebook. I wonder if he has a screenshot or even the exact wording of the post?

He would have to have shots, dates and times if a solicitor took it on I would think.

Youd also go to that profile and get as many shots as you could of them, their family, friends, likes dislikes, work, etc

Trolls are very stupid sometimes in their rush to abuse people and many have been traced because of this.

Scoundrel · 16-12-2020 4:06pm

So it's not true that Frank got the sack from the Mrs for being over friendly on the doors so to speak

anewme · 16-12-2020 4:50pm

Scoundrel wrote: »

So it's not true that Frank got the sack from the Mrs for being over friendly on the doors so to speak

That type of tittle tattle is why hes taking the case I suppose.

18-01-2021 1:20am

Case still quietly rumbling along. Facebook saying they know nothing.

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/facebook-says-alleged-defamatory-post-about-former-td-has-been-deleted-1065261.html

“We believe the post was permanently deleted. We can’t find it. Any attempt to identify the poster would be a speculative exercise,” Counsel said.

Its interesting that I could post any kind of allegation on their platform and they will bear no responsibility for it.

He seems to have got some details from twitter though.

marieholmfan · 21-01-2021 5:03pm

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

Case still quietly rumbling along. Facebook saying they know nothing.

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/facebook-says-alleged-defamatory-post-about-former-td-has-been-deleted-1065261.html

“We believe the post was permanently deleted. We can’t find it. Any attempt to identify the poster would be a speculative exercise,” Counsel said.

Its interesting that I could post any kind of allegation on their platform and they will bear no responsibility for it.

He seems to have got some details from twitter though.

Very surprised to learn that Facebook actually delete records as opposed to just marking them as inactive.

L1011 · 21-01-2021 5:04pm

If the associated account did a GDPR wipe it may basically be impossible to link any inactivated copy of the record back to any useful info.

marieholmfan · 21-01-2021 5:06pm

L1011 wrote: »

If the associated account did a GDPR wipe it may basically be impossible to link any inactivated copy of the record back to any useful info.

Very reasonable point. I suppose in that specific case one should wipe everything in a non recoverable way.

GavMan · 26-01-2021 11:19am

marieholmfan wrote: »

Very surprised to learn that Facebook actually delete records as opposed to just marking them as inactive.

Given the amount of data their platform generates, I would be utterly shocked to learn that they don't delete data

L1011 · 26-01-2021 11:57am

Does show a potential flaw - say something you think could get you in trouble down the line then GDPR wipe the account once you think its been seen enough.

Lastblackdog · 26-01-2021 2:15pm

L1011 wrote: »

Does show a potential flaw - say something you think could get you in trouble down the line then GDPR wipe the account once you think its been seen enough.

So the lesson learnt is that if you find something objectionable then you should take a screen shot. If the offending item is subsequently deleted then, using the rules of "best evidence" your screen shot should be permissible. Better yet, get another person to also screen shot the item.

L1011 · 26-01-2021 5:11pm

Lastblackdog wrote: »

So the lesson learnt is that if you find something objectionable then you should take a screen shot. If the offending item is subsequently deleted then, using the rules of "best evidence" your screen shot should be permissible. Better yet, get another person to also screen shot the item.

Still doesn't make the background info - IP, email address - that Facebook had come back from the great beyond.

L1011 · 29-01-2021 1:22pm

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/courtandcrime/arid-40216247.html

Still can't find the problematic Facebook content it seems, but a name is given here.

29-01-2021 6:40pm

He has one person identified and still searching for another.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40216424.html

Stealthirl · 30-01-2021 7:26am

The Celbridge politics page has been close/archived with the following announcement

Due to unforeseen circumstances I am temporarily suspending the Celbridge Politics group. Thanks for your patience and understanding while I seek advice.
Best regards, Treasa

No idea if it's related but there was stuff posted there at the time and the sister page Maynooth politics is still up and running. I hope that Treasa is not being made a scapegoat here.

marieholmfan · 03-02-2021 4:51pm

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

He has one person identified and still searching for another.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40216424.html

He claims to have one person identified. You don't need to provide an email address or a phone number to open a twitter account.

The assertion has not be proven.

anewme · 03-02-2021 5:29pm

marieholmfan wrote: »

He claims to have one person identified. You don't need to provide an email address or a phone number to open a twitter account.

The assertion has not be proven.

The person has admitted to publishing the information.

Scoundrel · 03-02-2021 9:07pm

Hang on he's suing someone who shared something on twitter from Facebook?? Is everyone who shared something in twitter now responsible for it? Do they have to fact check it?

anewme · 03-02-2021 10:30pm

Scoundrel wrote: »

Hang on he's suing someone who shared something on twitter from Facebook?? Is everyone who shared something in twitter now responsible for it? Do they have to fact check it?

If you are sharing defamatory material, is that itself not defamation?

GE2020: Kildare North

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