Should This be Reported?

Linoge · 18-10-2020 4:24pm #1

I have a friend who works in Pharma in Cork City for the last 5 years. A few weeks ago she was threatened to be made redundant by her manager if she didnt sign a new contract for lower pay. Business was booming and the "redundancy" was totally bogus and being used for what appears to be a (quite unethical) negotiating tool to try to renegotiate her contract.

She is an excellent performer and she called their bluff (in a tactful way) and they backed down completely giving all kinds of excuses.

Thing is she now rightfully doesnt trust her manager and is wondering what she can do to safeguard herself. Should she report this incident in confidence to HR to get it on the record (with no action to be taken)? Or would this actually a serious incidence of once off bullying?

To be clear, she is not trying to make waves or try to "get back/get justice" at any manager (he is way too senior in any case, HR wouldnt even call him into a room about it). And she still has to work with him at the end of the day. But clearly at the same time this manager has acted in the most unscrupulous way possible and you could absolutely expect more of the same in the future. Also he may not have appreciated her sticking up for herself - may look to punish her for it the next opportunity he gets down the road.

Any thoughts on this? is it worth getting the incident on record? Thanks in advance

salamiii · 18-10-2020 4:26pm

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/equality_in_work/bullying_in_the_workplace.html

cannotlogin · 18-10-2020 4:29pm

I suspect her manager got the lower rate contract from HR!

HR exists solely to protect the company not the employees and anyone who thinks otherwise is deluded.

XsApollo · 18-10-2020 4:30pm

What kind of role has she, he isn’t that senior if she has to work with Him everyday.
If it is a big multi national and I wonder who up the management chain would agree or even tell someone to do something like that, sounds crazy.

Smaller company sure.

If it was a big multinational I would approach plant manager or even HR manager, or even beyond that.

daheff · 18-10-2020 4:30pm

Report to HR

Get her CV ready though as her manager seems to not want her and things will get tougher in the future.

New job would be a better idea I think.

Mrs OBumble · 18-10-2020 4:30pm

Linoge wrote: »

Should she report this incident in confidence to HR to get it on the record (with no action to be taken)? Or would this actually a serious incidence of once off bullying?

By definition, bullying cannot be a one-off thing.

I would be very surprised if HR don't already know.

And I would be job hunting, at least internally to get a different manager.

Triangle · 18-10-2020 4:33pm

Linoge wrote: »

I have a friend who works in Pharma in Cork City for the last 5 years. A few weeks ago she was threatened to be made redundant by her manager if she didnt sign a new contract for lower pay. Business was booming and the "redundancy" was totally bogus and being used for what appears to be a (quite unethical) negotiating tool to try to renegotiate her contract.

She is an excellent performer and she called their bluff (in a tactful way) and they backed down completely giving all kinds of excuses.

Thing is she now rightfully doesnt trust her manager and is wondering what she can do to safeguard herself. Should she report this incident in confidence to HR to get it on the record (with no action to be taken)? Or would this actually a serious incidence of once off bullying?

To be clear, she is not trying to make waves or try to "get back/get justice" at any manager (he is way too senior in any case, HR wouldnt even call him into a room about it). And she still has to work with him at the end of the day. But clearly at the same time this manager has acted in the most unscrupulous way possible and you could absolutely expect more of the same in the future. Also he may not have appreciated her sticking up for herself - may look to punish her for it the next opportunity he gets down the road.

Any thoughts on this? is it worth getting the incident on record? Thanks in advance

She should definitely put in on record with HR and say she's not looking to progress a complaint. She just wants it noted.
That way, if anything happens in future - it's on record.

Linoge · 18-10-2020 5:30pm

Thanks for all the replies so far

Triangle wrote: »

She should definitely put in on record with HR and say she's not looking to progress a complaint. She just wants it noted.
That way, if anything happens in future - it's on record.

I personally loathe HR, but this is how I am currently leaning in my view. Just purely noted, not anything pursued (as effective as pissing into the ocean in any case). So for constructive dismissal or anything down the road there is an official record of the incident.

For the bullying thing - I’m wondering does just because it’s a once off make a difference/ not constitute bullying? Surely if thats the case you could do anything to anyone so long as you only do it once?! The difference here is that bullying is actually a legal issue for the company as it comes under health and safety in the workplace. To be clear I know zero would come of what has happened, but it might slow the roll of the manager for any future devious sh1t he had planned.

18-10-2020 5:44pm

HR look after the company and the management, nobody else.

Linoge · 18-10-2020 5:55pm

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

HR look after the company and the management, nobody else.

Literally expecting zero from them. Less than zero. But a record of the event may make anyone think twice before putting the company at risk from a constructive dismissal suit. Protecting the company includes protecting the company from lawsuits caused by reckless managers.

Literally that’s all it would be, record of the event. Shot off the bow.

Linoge · 18-10-2020 5:57pm

OSI wrote: »

This would have been done under instruction from and the guidance of HR, so I’m not sure what if anything constructive you’re expecting to achieve by complaining to them.

Separately, HR weren’t aware that redundancy was offered - only told that contract was being renegotiated. Not that it makes much difference overall

OMM 0000 · 18-10-2020 6:09pm

Linoge wrote: »

Business was booming and the "redundancy" was totally bogus and being used for what appears to be a (quite unethical) negotiating tool to try to renegotiate her contract.

How do you know this?

Maybe the department has a reduced budget and the manager has been told to let staff go, but he is trying to save jobs by reducing salaries.

Maybe the company is restructuring.

You don't work at the company, nor are you privy to items senior management are grappling with, so I don't think you're in a position to say the redundancy was totally bogus.

I worked for a company where our department was told to reduce the salary of our star employee. We knew this would cause him to leave. Instead my boss reduced her own salary and gave it to the star employee. He never knew about this.

There is all sorts of crap that goes on at a management level which normal employees have no idea about.

Regardless, it sounds like it worked out in the end. There is no point going to HR as they won't care and they were already in the loop about the new contract. They would have been the people who created the new contract.

Repair the relationship with the manager and move on.

Linoge · 18-10-2020 6:24pm

OMM 0000 wrote: »

How do you know this?

Maybe the department has a reduced budget and the manager has been told to let staff go, but he is trying to save jobs by reducing salaries.

Maybe the company is restructuring.

You don't work at the company, nor are you privy to items senior management are grappling with, so I don't think you're in a position to say the redundancy was totally bogus.

I worked for a company where our department was told to reduce the salary of our star employee. We knew this would cause him to leave. Instead my boss reduced her own salary and gave it to the star employee. He never knew about this.

There is all sorts of crap that goes on at a management level which normal employees have no idea about.

Regardless, it sounds like it worked out in the end. There is no point going to HR as they won't care and they were already in the loop about the new contract. They would have been the people who created the new contract.

Repair the relationship with the manager and move on.

There obviously is much much more to the story and this all happened over a number of weeks - I very much had to summarise it here.

Not sure if I'm getting my point across in previous posts - I'm not expecting HR to do anything. HR 100% dont care, management dont care, HR wont say anything to management, zero will be done, HR only care about the company - I absolutely understand all this. Its not about HR and what they will and wont do, its literally only about recording the event.

My thinking on it is reporting it would at least get an official record of the event that may be useful to her down the road because who knows what else this guy has in store. If HR decide that they do wish to inform the manager that a complaint was made, it may be just enough to prevent him from bullying her further down the road, or at least be more wary that she is not a completely clueless walkover.

Linoge · 18-10-2020 6:39pm

I do appreciate all the replies here. Hope nobody feels that just because i disagree on certain points that I am disregarding all of the info, this is absolutely not true. Even having a discussion on this in general is immensely helpful. She is reading this thread and all the replies and will of course make up her own mind with the best course of action to take.

For me just to reword because my above is just too long and waffly: The shortened question is - If she goes to HR and their policy allows her to make a good faith complaint in full confidendiality - could the complaint / record of this event help her with a potential constructive dismissal case down the road?

C3PO · 18-10-2020 7:18pm

I find it difficult to understand why a manager in a Pharma company would try and renegotiate an employees contract off his own bat without consultation with HR and more senior management .... why would he?

OMM 0000 · 18-10-2020 7:43pm

C3PO wrote: »

I find it difficult to understand why a manager in a Pharma company would try and renegotiate an employees contract off his own bat without consultation with HR and more senior management .... why would he?

He wouldn't.

There is a lot more to this story we aren't being told.

18-10-2020 7:45pm

OMM 0000 wrote: »

He wouldn't.

There is a lot more to this story we aren't being told.

Here we go, supercompanyman has arrived to tell us that the employee is wrong and a liar no matter what. While all wrapping it up in how great they are.

Linoge · 18-10-2020 8:10pm

C3PO wrote: »

I find it difficult to understand why a manager in a Pharma company would try and renegotiate an employees contract off his own bat without consultation with HR and more senior management .... why would he?

He didn’t do it off his own bat - senior management were told and HR was fully looped in. The issue with the negotiation was threatening her job with a redundancy that didn’t exist ie. if you don’t take less money you are gone from this organisation. This was proven to be bogus as she chose redundancy and then suddenly there were no changes to to her salary, contract - nothing, everything back to normal. And even if this negotiating tactic is fully sanctioned by SM, HR, everyone - that doesn’t mean that if there was a constructive dismissal case down the road that it would show the company if a good light.

Linoge · 18-10-2020 8:19pm

OMM 0000 wrote: »

He wouldn't.

There is a lot more to this story we aren't being told.

I do believe I included all of this information in my previous posts and never stated he was doing it off his own bat. Even the redundancy tactic, although Hr didn’t seem to be in the know, it wouldn’t have made a blind bit of difference.

I don’t think it makes for a productive conversation for me to lie or hide details - what would be the point in that? So just for the sake of this thread I would appreciate if what I was saying was just taken at face value. I’m not looking for praise, or to be told I’m right, or to bad mouth X company. All I want is the very best for my friend and help her make the best out of an incredibly difficult situation. I come from a cut throat industry myself and yet am still shocked by this tactic, especially during a pandemic.

Linoge · 18-10-2020 8:25pm

C3PO wrote: »

I find it difficult to understand why a manager in a Pharma company would try and renegotiate an employees contract off his own bat without consultation with HR and more senior management .... why would he?

I'm spamming my own thread here but here:

Linoge wrote: »

Separately, HR weren’t aware that redundancy was offered - only told that contract was being renegotiated. Not that it makes much difference overall

He is a Senior Manager himself:

Linoge wrote: »

To be clear, she is not trying to make waves or try to "get back/get justice" at any manager (he is way too senior in any case, HR wouldnt even call him into a room about it). e

Augme · 18-10-2020 11:36pm

Linoge wrote: »

To be clear, she is not trying to make waves or try to "get back/get justice" at any manager (he is way too senior in any case, HR wouldnt even call him into a room about it). And she still has to work with him at the end of the day. But clearly at the same time this manager has acted in the most unscrupulous way possible and you could absolutely expect more of the same in the future. Also he may not have appreciated her sticking up for herself - may look to punish her for it the next opportunity he gets down the road.

Any thoughts on this? is it worth getting the incident on record? Thanks in advance

This is the crux of it. The senior manager will know she went to HR so their already dubious relationship won't be helped.

As for the second bolded piece - on the flip side you could argue she is now in a potentially strong position having this to hold over him. Also, as she has already stood up for herself it is possible the senior manager will be a bit more reluctant to throw his weight around.

OMM 0000 · 19-10-2020 8:03am

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

Here we go, supercompanyman has arrived to tell us that the employee is wrong and a liar no matter what. While all wrapping it up in how great they are.

You are absolutely deluded if you think there isn't another side to this story.

No manager makes a contract on his own and tries to force one of his staff members to sign it. This is basic stuff.

Gervais08 · 19-10-2020 8:06am

cannotlogin wrote: »

I suspect her manager got the lower rate contract from HR!

HR exists solely to protect the company not the employees and anyone who thinks otherwise is deluded.

That’s not true. Yeah overall the company may be their overarching priority but enough people registered complaints about my manager that he went - for the good of the company sure, but we benefitted.

I can never thank HR enough.

Keyzer · 19-10-2020 8:50am

cannotlogin wrote: »

HR exists solely to protect the company not the employees and anyone who thinks otherwise is deluded.

Sooner everyone realises this the better - HR exist for the sole purpose of preventing the company in question from being sued.

Linoge · 19-10-2020 8:54am

OMM 0000 wrote: »

You are absolutely deluded if you think there isn't another side to this story.

No manager makes a contract on his own and tries to force one of his staff members to sign it. This is basic stuff.

This is not what happened. I never mentioned even 1 time that this is what had happened. I further clarified that this didn’t happen when it was mentioned and then even quoted posts where I literally said this didn’t happen.

I don’t know what else to tell you. You are obviously not reading the thread and definitely did not read my last few responses.

I appreciate this is a public forum and you can post what you like, but this is also an advise forum and I have asked some kind people of the internet for help - on a message board that I have been part of for over 15 years. If you are not willing to participate and post something helpful, it would be be better if you didn’t post / thread spoil at all.

Like I said in my last post - there is zero to gain by me lying / hiding details here. What purpose does that serve? So you trying to investigate / uncover some sort of hidden truth / fight for the employer is a waste of time.

You have provided zero advise or any kind of value to the thread except for accusing me of lying. I would sincerely appreciate if you could stop.

My only question is - Is having a record of the event (I am thinking record it with HR, but maybe there is a better way to record what happened) going to be useful down the line?

OMM 0000 · 19-10-2020 9:03am

Go back and read your original post:

Linoge wrote:

she was threatened to be made redundant by her manager if she didnt sign a new contract for lower pay

Linoge wrote:

she now rightfully doesnt trust her manager and is wondering what she can do to safeguard herself

Linoge wrote:

Should she report this incident in confidence to HR to get it on the record

Linoge wrote:

Or would this actually a serious incidence of once off bullying

Linoge wrote:

this manager has acted in the most unscrupulous way possible

Look at the replies. Me and many others have correctly interpreted this to mean he did it on his own.

You are correct that your recent replies clarified this. I did not read them.

Linoge wrote:

You have provided zero advise or any kind of value to the thread except for accusing me of lying.

Ah. Now we're getting somewhere. I wonder are you applying this same dishonesty to your manager? Look how you're choosing to ignore this advice so you can make yourself out to the the victim:

OMM 000 wrote:

There is no point going to HR as they won't care and they were already in the loop about the new contract. They would have been the people who created the new contract.

Repair the relationship with the manager and move on.

And where did I accuse you of lying?

I really want to hear the managers side of things now. You are a dishonest person.

belfe · 19-10-2020 9:09am

OMM 0000 wrote: »

You are absolutely deluded if you think there isn't another side to this story.

No manager makes a contract on his own and tries to force one of his staff members to sign it. This is basic stuff.

My guess?

This comes directly from senior management, that manager was only the messenger.

It wasnt me123 · 19-10-2020 9:24am

Triangle wrote: »

She should definitely put in on record with HR and say she's not looking to progress a complaint. She just wants it noted.
That way, if anything happens in future - it's on record.

This. She should document what occurred - so he gave her x, she replied by y, he spoke and said z, she replied by zz etc

If something blows up into the future, if she stays in the job, its hard to remember exactly who said what and when. If she does a report and then hand it into HR so they have a copy - by email and ask them to confirm their receipt = this way no-one can say I don't remember or I didn't get it.

If she enjoys her job I would stay but if they want to move her on, part of the redundancy package that they get a really really good reference and a non disclosure on their side.

Linoge · 19-10-2020 10:23am

It wasnt me123 wrote: »

This. She should document what occurred - so he gave her x, she replied by y, he spoke and said z, she replied by zz etc

If something blows up into the future, if she stays in the job, its hard to remember exactly who said what and when. If she does a report and then hand it into HR so they have a copy - by email and ask them to confirm their receipt = this way no-one can say I don't remember or I didn't get it.

If she enjoys her job I would stay but if they want to move her on, part of the redundancy package that they get a really really good reference and a non disclosure on their side.

Cheers for taking the time to read and respond. No redundancy exists (or ever existed). It was purely a negotiating tactic - so she still has her job. She is looking for a new job, but her role is quite specialist so this will take some time + COVID-19 is not making it easy.

She is actually looking to do exactly what you were saying above - get all the details of the meeting in an email, everything that she can remember etc. and then ask for a confidential meeting with HR. Request that she report something in confidence and then send on the email when confirmed. That way she has it all recorded should she need it down the road

Mrs OBumble · 19-10-2020 11:04am

Linoge wrote: »

My only question is - Is having a record of the event (I am thinking record it with HR, but maybe there is a better way to record what happened) going to be useful down the line?

No, I don't believe it will be useful in any way.

If she goes to HR the only thing it proves to HR is that she's someone who goes to HR. She won't be telling them anything they don't already know.

nthclare · 19-10-2020 11:20am

cannotlogin wrote: »

I suspect her manager got the lower rate contract from HR!

HR exists solely to protect the company not the employees and anyone who thinks otherwise is deluded.

There was a time in the 90's when hr were so protective of the employees that they were better than any union.

Now it'd gone the other way, as corrupt and hostile as a bad government.

They actually manipulate contracts so well that, you've no rights anymore.

Thankfully I'm on the old contract where I work, but some people aren't as confident as me at standing up to people in high places.
My aul lad had a senior job in the department of justice, and he thought me well as a kid and teenager on how to stand my ground with teachers, bosses in the likes of Quinzworth in the early 90s and duty managers in hotels on power trips etc as a 16 year old I was a right clever little rogue.

Still the same although managers will never have a go at someone who's confident they'll only shaft who they think is the weakest link.

If people here who are millenials or think that companies are way better managed and there's better working conditions now than there ever was, well you're deluded.

I've watched a huge decline in fairness and equality over the years, although there was always corruption.
It's worse now than there ever was.

I think a well know retail company took the lead with zero hour contracts and gotten away with it, probably the same genius left that retail company and got a job with a huge recruitment agency, then the rot set in...

Do any of ye realise that recruitment agencies you get jobs from are getting a nice chunk of your wages.

And this is to supposedly relieve Human resources in said company you're slaving for.. So the recruitment company is pulling the woll over everyone's eyes.

This is going to have to end, because the lay man and women are sick and tired of being peed on and told its raining..

StackSteevens · 19-10-2020 12:04pm

nthclare wrote: »

My aul lad had a senior job in the department of justice, and he thought me well as a kid and teenager

Hmmmmmm.............

nthclare · 19-10-2020 12:14pm

StackSteevens wrote: »

Hmmmmmm.............

Thanks for the correction, the cheque is in the post.

I promise

Linoge · 19-10-2020 1:20pm

Cheers for all the replies

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

No, I don't believe it will be useful in any way.

If she goes to HR the only thing it proves to HR is that she's someone who goes to HR. She won't be telling them anything they don't already know.

The single and only advantage of going to HR is that there is a company record that the event took place. If she was to take say an unfair dismissal /constructive dismissal/ harassment /anything kind of case (that this may progress to a year down the road) the first question that would be asked by a tribunal is why didn’t she report previous issues through the correct processes within the company. With company lawyers asking “how convenient this is that there is suddenly another incident” and “why is all this only coming to light now when employees are fully encouraged to come forward to report these issues?”

Regardless of what will and won’t be done (again - HR will do NOTHING/ZIP/ZERO - this is not in debate here), it is the employee who will need to prove that she a) followed correct company procedure and b) has legitimate, verifiable evidence to back up her case.

Vetch · 19-10-2020 1:36pm

Linoge wrote: »

Cheers for all the replies

The single and only advantage of going to HR is that there is a company record that the event took place. If she was to take say an unfair dismissal /constructive dismissal/ harassment /anything kind of case (that this may progress to a year down the road) the first question that would be asked by a tribunal is why didn’t she report previous issues through the correct processes within the company. With company lawyers asking “how convenient this is that there is suddenly another incident” and “why is all this only coming to light now when employees are fully encouraged to come forward to report these issues?”

Regardless of what will and won’t be done (again - HR will do NOTHING/ZIP/ZERO - this is not in debate here), it is the employee who will need to prove that she a) followed correct company procedure and b) has legitimate, verifiable evidence to back up her case.

OP, from your other posts, HR already seems to be aware of what happened. There are a few references to requesting a 'confidential' meeting with HR. It seems unlikely that HR would keep any conversation confidential as, as already mentioned, their brief is to protect the company. Your friend seems to have 'won' this round. I think your friend's approach of compiling a record if needed for the future is useful. What I haven't seen mentioned in the thread is whether the same tactic was employed in relation to other employees.

Linoge · 19-10-2020 1:59pm

Vetch wrote: »

What I haven't seen mentioned in the thread is whether the same tactic was employed in relation to other employees.

She believes it has been used (with at least some level of success) with several other employees in her dept. So this was not a tactic management are only using with her, but she may be the first who it wasn’t successful with (and there would be no real way of finding this out). My guess would be that anyone who it was tried with but it didn’t work would just have left the organisation at the soonest opportunity afterwards - and so would just look like regular turnover.

StackSteevens · 19-10-2020 2:44pm

Linoge wrote: »

The shortened question is - If she goes to HR and their policy allows her to make a good faith complaint in full confidendiality - could the complaint/ record of this event help her with a potential constructive dismissal case down the road?

Well, it couldn't do any harm and might be useful. The confidentiality question isn't here or there; if we're talking about a potential unfair dismissal case then she needs to kick them hard in the shins.

Ideally she should write a letter to HR outlining the facts and dates, ask that it be added to her personnel file and request a written confirmation that it was.

(If she wanted to make them sit up and take notice she could also mention on the letter that she was cc'ing it to her solicitor!)

_Brian · 19-10-2020 3:14pm

Having worked extensively in managment in miltinational companies I can say with 99.9% certaintity that HR were already in on this issue of getting the employee onto the lower pay contract, its not like a manager decides to put employees onto new contracts to pass the time, this is a HR driven agenda, yes theres a chance the manager was off on a solo run threatening the redundancy.

HR would be aware of most constructive dismissals etc, guiding managers and supervisors to stay within the lines "just".

I've sat in "pre meetings" with HR and HR's "employee representitive" where it would be agreed in advance what the best outcome was and how it would be achieved with least trouble.

Reporting this will probably keep them on their toes, possibly the manager went off script a bit, but unless theres a paper trail its probably going to go down as a non issue.

mariaalice · 19-10-2020 7:55pm

The place is booming, they want to take on more but not pay the same as the current employees, they are doing this because paying different rates of pay for the same role might cause resentment easier to try and lower the average pay for the role.

They must be fairly certain that they are paying above what is being paid locally for the same role or they would not be doing this and that is why others have accepted the new contract.

Linoge · 19-10-2020 9:50pm

StackSteevens wrote: »

Well, it couldn't do any harm and might be useful. The confidentiality question isn't here or there; if we're talking about a potential unfair dismissal case then she needs to kick them hard in the shins.

Ideally she should write a letter to HR outlining the facts and dates, ask that it be added to her personnel file and request a written confirmation that it was.

(If she wanted to make them sit up and take notice she could also mention on the letter that she was cc'ing it to her solicitor!)

This is it indeed - she needs to show that she can and will stand up for herself. Whether that is including a solicitor, recording the events officially etc - it all shows that she is not going to be caught out with an unfair dismissal, and if it does come down to it that she would 100% follow up.

Some people think that this action may be heavy handed - but how could it be when they have literally threatened to fire her? What is the more diplomatic action here - take SM and HR in to a room and say "I really didn't appreciate what you did. Would you mind not doing this again?"

Her career is shot in there now obviously and she has a target on her back. This has all moved to preserving her job and not bring some nastiness/bullying upon herself until another role comes up and she can get out of there.

_Brian wrote: »

Having worked extensively in managment in miltinational companies I can say with 99.9% certaintity that HR were already in on this issue of getting the employee onto the lower pay contract, its not like a manager decides to put employees onto new contracts to pass the time, this is a HR driven agenda, yes theres a chance the manager was off on a solo run threatening the redundancy.

Manager wasn't on a solo run + HR were in the loop. It was some previous poster that suggested that this was the case but it was not. Separately, the budget etc is driven by the management so would be 100% their agenda. HR just do what they are told by management.

_Brian wrote: »

Reporting this will probably keep them on their toes, possibly the manager went off script a bit, but unless theres a paper trail its probably going to go down as a non issue.

Exactly, without paper trails you have nothing. And showing there are paper trails does make people think twice. Knowing the law and letting them know that you know the law could never be hurtful in any situation.

mariaalice wrote: »

They must be fairly certain that they are paying above what is being paid locally for the same role or they would not be doing this and that is why others have accepted the new contract.

Others were more than likely duped by the fake redundancy negotiating tactic. This company is not interested in paying the market rate for the role. The process looks to be entice high quality workers in with a very competitive salary, then try to renogiate like the above after some years. If they take the bait then happy days. If not, say "my bad" and try to move on like nothing happened. Poorly performing, unscrupulous managers would have no issue doing exactly this as a way to justify their own salary - "look at the cost saving we made".

The advantage they are trying to press here is that people would be more reluctant to move due to the pandemic. Otherwise I very much doubt they would have done it to this girl.

OMM 0000 · 20-10-2020 10:49am

Linoge wrote: »

The process looks to be entice high quality workers in with a very competitive salary, then try to renogiate like the above after some years. If they take the bait then happy days. If not, say "my bad" and try to move on like nothing happened.

There is no way a multinational has this process.

I see a consistent pattern with these sorts of posts on boards.

1. The employee is perfect.

There is no other side to the story, and anyone who says otherwise is victimising the employee. Nevermind that every story has multiple perspectives and interpretations.

If you're struggling to accept this, take a look at your teammates. How many of them are perfect? None? How many of them are kind of useless or unreasonable? A few? Guess what, they also think they're perfect. Want to take a guess what they think of you?

2. Managers are evil.

The real issue is many people who post here don't understand the role of a manager. They think it's an extension of their time in school - their teacher has been replaced by a manager, so they expect their manager to have the same caring touch and feel victimised this isn't happening. Grow up.

The main role of a manager is to get the maximum amount of work out out you without breaking you. You've probably heard the phrase turn the dial up/turn it down. This is referring to pressure. Turn up the pressure to get them to work harder, turn it down when it's becoming too much for them.

All managers do this. If you've worked for a charismatic manager, you just didn't realise it.

The sooner you accept this, the sooner you can realise they're just doing their job. Forge a relationship with them to make your life easier. Then one day you can become the wonderful manager you wished existed. Guess what, that's what your manager thought too.

3. Companies are evil.

They're not. There may be some people at governance level who are psychos (very likely) but you probably never interact with them. There are probably some managers or HR who are unethical and have poor people skills. These people exist everywhere. Either learn to deal with it or continue being a victim. I can tell you from experience that these companies, with idiot managers and HR, are the best companies to work for, because you can go to the leadership with solutions. And you will get promoted for it. But if you want to sit there sulking, damaging your relationship with the company, you will get nowhere, and most importantly, you will remain unhappy.

So let's apply these three items to this thread.

1. You're not perfect. The company wouldn't have aggressively shoved a new contract (lower pay) in your face with threats of redundancy if they rated you. Companies do not do this to their star employees. Open your mind to the entirety of this situation and start thinking strategically. Currently you're losing yourself in emotions and conspiracy theories.

The correct move here, assuming you don't want to leave, is fix your relationship with this manager and improve your performance.

2. He might be a crap manager. He may even be evil. What's the best way to fight someone like this? Run to HR? No, he's already in management so they're on his side. The solution is to form a friendship with him so he (a) won't do this again and (b) will try to protect you because you're his ally.

3. Decide where you want to be in the company. Hate it there? Leave. Want to build a career there? Then completely change your mentality because running to HR, making up conspiracy theories, and being unable to accept criticism is going to get you nowhere.

Strumms · 20-10-2020 1:31pm

Nobody is asking for perfection.

What people are asking for is professionalism, fairness and that managers play by the rules, they expect employees to, they must too.

People in positions of responsibility and authority need to play by the book if they demand other do. The most crucial aspect of ‘leadership’ is setting examples and leading by them...

Linoge · 20-10-2020 6:32pm

OMM 0000 wrote: »

There is no way a multinational has this process.

I see a consistent pattern with these sorts of posts on boards.
.

You're above is very long and I didnt get to read but I got the gist of what youre probably trying to say.

Not trying to be offensive here, but you do sound quite inexperienced in the corporate world. I'm sure you are prob very talented at what you do and you lucked out at getting in to a decent employer straight after college and have been with them ever since. Your limited experience makes you feel that every industry/employer/manager are like this - but this is naivety in its truest form.

Other people in this thread have called you a company man, and i cant say i disagree given what I have read from your earlier posts.

This is a public forum so I'm not going to tell you what you can and cant post. But know that people on this forum are looking for help, and if you are not able to offer constructive help and have limited experience yourself, maybe leave the "helping" to other, more business/corporate experienced posters.

From my own experience you came across as extremely rude, unhelpful, argumentitive, naive, and if I could block you and your posts I would have (or is there a way?). Your only purpose seemed to be to try to derail the thread.

Thank you to everytone else here for taking them time to contribute to the discussion.

OMM 0000 · 20-10-2020 6:56pm

Linoge wrote: »

You're above is very long and I didnt get to read but I got the gist of what youre probably trying to say.

Not trying to be offensive here, but you do sound quite inexperienced in the corporate world. I'm sure you are prob very talented at what you do and you lucked out at getting in to a decent employer straight after college and have been with them ever since. Your limited experience makes you feel that every industry/employer/manager are like this - but this is naivety in its truest form.

Other people in this thread have called you a company man, and i cant say i disagree given what I have read from your earlier posts.

This is a public forum so I'm not going to tell you what you can and cant post. But know that people on this forum are looking for help, and if you are not able to offer constructive help and have limited experience yourself, maybe leave the "helping" to other, more business/corporate experienced posters.

From my own experience you came across as extremely rude, unhelpful, argumentitive, naive, and if I could block you and your posts I would have (or is there a way?). Your only purpose seemed to be to try to derail the thread.

Thank you to everytone else here for taking them time to contribute to the discussion.

I am CEO of a multinational with over 20 years experience.

I live in Japan and have worked in multiple countries.

I don't disagree I can come across as an asshole, however my analysis is correct.

Linoge · 20-10-2020 7:27pm

OMM 0000 wrote: »

I am CEO of a multinational with over 20 years experience.

I live in Japan and have worked in multiple countries.

I don't disagree I can come across as an asshole, however my analysis is correct.

I'm not sure if the above is a joke, but i dont know why the CEO of a multinational is arguing with some dude over the internet at 3:00am in the morning. Although I appreciate this, don't you value your time and feel you can be more productive with it?

If you feel you can come across as an asshole, why dont you try to be a bit more assertive and a lot less aggressive?

The flaw from much of your logic that I can see is that you treat "companies" and "management" as the same thing. Management are of course just people (and we all know that they also would have a higher % of psychopaths and narccisists at that). They can also come under serious pressure to perform - many are in over their head - some possibly not suitably qualified, or equally under significant pressure to pull a rabbit our of their arse. This can and will lead to issues and unfair treatment of employees. So posters problems here aren't "THE MGMT vs THE PEOPLE", its usually just "People vs People".

If you want to post advise, post advise. What are you trying to achieve with your investigative questions? Are you trying to restore some redacted companies honour? Expect that whoever is posting is posting in good faith. if you dont feel they are posting in good faith - why are you even bothering to respond? If you want thank clicks or some fake internet points for "calling someone out" .... come on mate, be a better person than that.

OMM 0000 · 20-10-2020 7:59pm

Linoge wrote: »

I'm not sure if the above is a joke, but i dont know why the CEO of a multinational is arguing with some dude over the internet at 3:00am in the morning. Although I appreciate this, don't you value your time and feel you can be more productive with it?

If you feel you can come across as an asshole, why dont you try to be a bit more assertive and a lot less aggressive?

The flaw from much of your logic that I can see is that you treat "companies" and "management" as the same thing. Management are of course just people (and we all know that they also would have a higher % of psychopaths and narccisists at that). They can also come under serious pressure to perform - many are in over their head - some possibly not suitably qualified, or equally under significant pressure to pull a rabbit our of their arse. This can and will lead to issues and unfair treatment of employees. So posters problems here aren't "THE MGMT vs THE PEOPLE", its usually just "People vs People".

If you want to post advise, post advise. What are you trying to achieve with your investigative questions? Are you trying to restore some redacted companies honour? Expect that whoever is posting is posting in good faith. if you dont feel they are posting in good faith - why are you even bothering to respond? If you want thank clicks or some fake internet points for "calling someone out" .... come on mate, be a better person than that.

If you read my second previous post (the long one), you will see I make three points: one is management, another is companies. I separate the two. So your theory that I think management and companies are the same is incorrect.

The real problem here is you only wanted people to agree with you. You didn't want to be challenged. You don't like being challenged. It makes you panic.

My advice to you is start thinking strategically. Slow down, stop being defensive, and start considering what people say.

Augme · 20-10-2020 8:54pm

OMM 0000 wrote: »

My advice to you is start thinking strategically. Slow down, stop being defensive, and start considering what people say.

The irony of this is genuinely mind blowing. Haha.

OMM 0000 · 20-10-2020 9:00pm

Augme wrote: »

The irony of this is genuinely mind blowing. Haha.

Really?

Please explain how I don't think strategically in the workplace.

Augme · 20-10-2020 10:15pm

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Really?

Please explain how I don't think strategically in the workplace.

I've no idea how you think in the workplace.

OMM 0000 · 20-10-2020 11:26pm

Augme wrote: »

I've no idea how you think in the workplace.

Then how is the irony mind blowing?

_Brian · 21-10-2020 11:46am

Strumms wrote: »

Nobody is asking for perfection.

What people are asking for is professionalism, fairness and that managers play by the rules, they expect employees to, they must too.

People in positions of responsibility and authority need to play by the book if they demand other do. The most crucial aspect of ‘leadership’ is setting examples and leading by them...

Thats nice..
But its not reality..

Many supervisors and middle managers are implementing what is being handed down from above be that good or a total shiitshow.

I've intentionally moved away from multinationals for this reason and manage elsewhere in the economy now...

I pushed back against unfair practice in the workplace like this and at a meeting where employees were being selected to be disciplined or managed out I was politely told "its them or its you". Thats when I kicked in my exit strategy..

Should This be Reported?

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