Profit in Summer Grazing

Tomjim · 23-09-2018 10:40pm #1

Anyone do summer grazing and what is the profit per head on average from this system

Cavanjack · 24-09-2018 7:05pm

Tomjim wrote: »

Anyone do summer grazing and what is the profit per head on average from this system

Don't usually buy in the spring to sell in the autumn but usually if You buy in April stock are dear and if You sell this time of the year they are usually back a bit so I'd imagine break even at best.

_Brian · 24-09-2018 7:38pm

Can be tough.
Friend did ok for a few years and then got caught with tb test, wasn’t ready to winter 25 450kg heifers, cost a fair bit and didn’t get clear for six months.

He never did it again.

emaherx · 24-09-2018 7:43pm

_Brian wrote: »

Can be tough.
Friend did ok for a few years and then got caught with tb test, wasn’t ready to winter 25 450kg heifers, cost a fair bit and didn’t get clear for six months.

He never did it again.

Ouch!

Cavanjack · 24-09-2018 8:04pm

_Brian wrote: »

Can be tough.
Friend did ok for a few years and then got caught with tb test, wasn’t ready to winter 25 450kg heifers, cost a fair bit and didn’t get clear for six months.

He never did it again.

Yeah you'd want to be buying cattle to finish them at the back end to avoid getting caught like that.

kk.man · 25-09-2018 12:27pm

You can make a twist. You need good or dry land to take heavy cattle. Buying forward stores are the way to go in March, April at latest. You need to know cattle if you don't get a trusted agent. People get carried away with high prices for cattle in the spring but with a good mid summer jump it's as good a system as any.
I always ask the question what s the cost of a new slat shed and labour for the winter. How many years of a payback is that. That's how I sum it up. I wouldn't be keeping too many for the back end either.

Tomjim · 25-09-2018 10:40pm

anyone else with views on this, I would be interested in hearing your opinions

Siamsa Sessions · 26-09-2018 8:16am

I had a brief look at this and might give it a go next year to get some real figures, but depending on breed/type of animal, the margin was anything from 30-40 Euro per head for April to Sept grazing

_Brian · 26-09-2018 8:54am

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

I had a brief look at this and might give it a go next year to get some real figures, but depending on breed/type of animal, the margin was anything from 30-40 Euro per head for April to Sept grazing

Is €30-40 really a margin worth aiming for ?
I think with so many variables that’s just too tight, a minuscule change in mortality rates or beef prices or Turkish Lira or anything will wipe you out and probably send you onto a negative figure.

20silkcut · 26-09-2018 9:07am

I have been forced into summer grazing this year due to having to offload some cattle I bought in April due to lack of silage. I can tell you buying dairy bred weanlings was a disaster this year. They are worth the same or less now than they were in April.
Clearly you would want to be very careful about what cattle you chose to fatten over the summer. They would really want to be very short keep cattle by the time your selling them at the back end.

Siamsa Sessions · 26-09-2018 10:19am

_Brian wrote: »

Is €30-40 really a margin worth aiming for ?
I think with so many variables that’s just too tight, a minuscule change in mortality rates or beef prices or Turkish Lira or anything will wipe you out and probably send you onto a negative figure.

You're right - if one out of 20 animals (worth, say 600 Euro/head) keels over, then the margin for them all is wiped out. That's a big rick to take on.

Or if the weather comes very wet or very dry like this year. Again, you drop below the profit/loss line.

That's ever before you consider Brexit, Turkish Lira, or dropping oil prices in the Middle East.

Tis hard to know what to do.

Tomjim · 26-09-2018 10:22am

Hard to understand why livestock farmers rent land if there is no margin from summer grazing where you own the land

blue5000 · 26-09-2018 10:35am

850 views on this thread and only 12 replies, says a lot. You'd want to be a very shrewd buyer, have dry land, a clear TB test and a good job to fall back on;).

Siamsa Sessions · 26-09-2018 10:51am

Tomjim wrote: »

Hard to understand why livestock farmers rent land if there is no margin from summer grazing where you own the land

Entitlements: Can't see the bank manager allowing it unless there's a hefty BPS involved. Some lads have land rented with years too so not paying the going rate as tenants are not up-to-speed

Siamsa Sessions · 26-09-2018 10:53am

blue5000 wrote: »

850 views on this thread and only 12 replies, says a lot. You'd want to be a very shrewd buyer, have dry land, a clear TB test and a good job to fall back on;).

Hard to be a shrewd buyer too if you're buying small numbers from the mart. There's lads around the ring have their business done before you arrive at the mart at all

kk.man · 26-09-2018 11:14am

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

blue5000 wrote: »

850 views on this thread and only 12 replies, says a lot. You'd want to be a very shrewd buyer, have dry land, a clear TB test and a good job to fall back on;).

Hard to be a shrewd buyer too if you're buying small numbers from the mart. There's lads around the ring have their business done before you arrive at the mart at all

My buyer is a farmer who buys for himself and others. He lives in 3 or 4 marts most of the year. I always give him extra when paying him. He is the only exception to getting more than asking price! Last year I had a margin over purchase price of 400e on one lot of cattle but probably averaged 180e across the board. This system can be done but you need to make sure you get the right people.
This year doesn't look great but it's not good for anybody so take it on the chin and move on.

charolais0153 · 26-09-2018 6:39pm

Tomjim wrote: »

Hard to understand why livestock farmers rent land if there is no margin from summer grazing where you own the land

Make Plenty of cash from sheep if ya wanted

Who2 · 26-09-2018 8:32pm

I know of numerous people who bought weanlings last back end and have sold them on lately for around the same money, (mainly heifers). they are at a good loss if alls accounted for. its very risky but if you can hold onto your single farm payment, no work over the winter, no silage, no meal then it isnt any crazier than the rooting the rest of us are at.

Tomjim · 26-09-2018 9:18pm

Who2 wrote: »

I know of numerous people who bought weanlings last back end and have sold them on lately for around the same money, (mainly heifers). they are at a good loss if alls accounted for. its very risky but if you can hold onto your single farm payment, no work over the winter, no silage, no meal then it isnt any crazier than the rooting the rest of us are at.

I considered renting a piece of land I have away from the house then there is a danger I would lose subsidies GLAS etc.

I figured that if you could turn 150 euro per head from good quality bullocks that there would always be a market for themat the back end then you couldn't go wrong. I was making this assumption on the basis that there would be an average gain per head of 150 kgs x €2 = €300. allow for buying selling and dosing of €50, and price fluctations of €100 between spring and summer buying and selling, no silage to be made and because the ground is stripped for the winter a nice pick of grass in the spring and you could buy some of the bullocks in early Mach before they get really dear

severeoversteer · 26-09-2018 11:03pm

you would imagine there isn't another beef country in the world that could compete with us , because we produce it for nothing!

eventually we might drive all the rest out of business and be a monopoly beef producer!
(in wildest dreams of possible events):rolleyes:

eat sleep graze repeat

Genghis Cant · 26-09-2018 11:15pm

Here's a bullock I bought in spring late April. Red Lim, 595 kgs €1440. Killed late Sept 393 kgs R=3=, €1503.
Never again.

Muckit · 27-09-2018 11:07am

All heifers here but l think you gave at least a ton too much for him to start with. Did he see meal?

Im still learning here but the thing I've learnt is it's as much about buying at the right money as your farming . You could have yourself shot in the foot from the get go.

memorystick · 27-09-2018 12:10pm

I bought plain aa x and hr x and a few continental heifers last April for E540 each. If they don't make a few pound it's all a balls. Going to finish the aa for march and the rest off grass in May. Put in paddocks this summer. Savage difference in grass quality and management.

TooOldBoots · 27-09-2018 12:49pm

I think their'd be more money out of making and selling the fodder off the farm.
Average enough land would produce about 18 bales per acre. Sell bales at 10 euro profit = 180 per acre plus add back on the sfp and Glas and you would be on easier money than trying to buy bullocks, feed them, dose them, test them, do all the herding for the year then sell them for less than you paid for them in spring!

restive · 27-09-2018 2:35pm

An option here might be to buy AA out of a suckler herd. I bought 19 month olds in february 2015. Paid â‚¬2.20 a kilo. Roughly about â‚¬900 a piece. Sold in October for roughly â‚¬1,350. Don't have exact figures to hand. Not easist animal to find but if you can a good option.

TITANIUM. · 27-09-2018 2:36pm

TooOldBoots wrote: »

I think their'd be more money out of making and selling the fodder off the farm.
Average enough land would produce about 18 bales per acre. Sell bales at 10 euro profit = 180 per acre plus add back on the sfp and Glas and you would be on easier money than trying to buy bullocks, feed them, dose them, test them, do all the herding for the year then sell them for less than you paid for them in spring!

He still needs stock

charolais0153 · 27-09-2018 2:38pm

TooOldBoots wrote: »

I think their'd be more money out of making and selling the fodder off the farm.
Average enough land would produce about 18 bales per acre. Sell bales at 10 euro profit = 180 per acre plus add back on the sfp and Glas and you would be on easier money than trying to buy bullocks, feed them, dose them, test them, do all the herding for the year then sell them for less than you paid for them in spring!

Being left with a few hundred bales of silage would be a nice big hole in the pocket

Belongamick · 27-09-2018 4:05pm

I buy in last years calves, strong weanlings, in spring for the past 10 years.

It started badly, bought plain enough cattle, just enough to cover the SFP requirements. The worst animal ever was a dirty plain thing out of a dairy herd. He had to have horns removed in the autumn. He left zero profit, I think he actually lost money. Most of the stuff in the early days left slim margins, often negative.
I started to look around some more and went to a dealer to buy limo and limox cattle - every year they leave approx. e120/head which is not bad considering maintenance is low.
Moral of the story is buying plain is not worth it. Small money to be made buying good quality. This year may be more difficult to sell the way things are shaping up.

Genghis Cant · 27-09-2018 5:24pm

Muckit wrote: »

All heifers here but l think you gave at least a ton too much for him to start with. Did he see meal?.

At least!
The year that was in it burnt up any grass I had. I'd to feed hay and nuts as a stop gap measure.

Willfarman · 28-09-2018 11:35am

It’s no worse this year than summer grazing cattle that were bought last October.. and the guys selling stores at the time were crying and gnashing teeth at me at the time!

Bass Reeves · 28-09-2018 5:12pm

Summer grazing is like any other system there are lads good at it and lads that cannot hack it. Genghis as you learnt it is virtually impossible to make money off expensive cattle. Paying big money in late April is a sure way to lose money. That bullock put on 130 kgs in 150 day so performance was not in it either. Was he overdone when bought. For to leave any margin he have had to kill over 450kgs so his gain would have had to be around 220kgs in 150 days or 1.5kgs/day average over a summer which is hard going.

See lots of lads that buy 950 euro friesians in the March aiming to get them to 1200 euro. In layman's language they buy a 470ishkg friesian and get him to nearly 700kgs. They usually keep them out into late October/November. they are buying an animal that has not got a premium price first day and can ignore QA as lots of Friesians will not qualify anyway. They tend not to overstock take surplus grass as hay.

On the price of a shed I build a 4 bay slatted unit and 4 bay straw bedded as well as a silage slab when the 60% grant was there shed cost about 124K, I drew back about 18-19K in vat and got a grant of 62.5K. That left the shed at 43K which was tax deductable leaving the net cost around 22K. In 2012 I took out 3 of the straw bedded pen and installed a tank and slats at a cost 17K after vat and after tax it will have cost me less than 9K. It will hold about 100 store cattle net costs is around 31K or 310/head. Over a 40 year lifespan not including maintenance it works out at less than 8 euro/year. I seldom have it that full but allowing for 70 cattle average over its lifespan it is 11 euro/year housing costs.

Never wrestle with pigs · 28-09-2018 6:24pm

Don't think that there should be any profit in it if the real farmers that winter stock can't make a Bob.

Muckit · 28-09-2018 9:54pm

I know the thread title mentions profit, but margins are miniscule whatever the system. You need to be rolling big numbers in drystock and lads doing this in reality are few and far between. Anyways, decoupling of payments is the reality and it happened a long time ago.

Back to looking at the summer grazing system.
Lets break it down by looking at the advantages first off. No silage to be made. No slurry to be spread. These are two of the biggest contractor bills on drystock farms. Now imagine cutting fertiliser bill (because no silage) or having the 'luxury' to spread all your current annual fertiliser allocation on grazing. Big saving on outgoings.

Payments will not be affected once minimum stocking rates observed for ANC, and in reality these are easily met.

Now lets look at the time savings. 5 months off. And let's face it they're 5 of the least glamorous months farming wise! 5 months of zero commitment to the farm. Teachers only get 3months off ffs!!

I've managed to fine tune and pare down my summer routine. Stock have continued to thrive for me with fewer man hours. Investment in 'grazing infrastructure' (fencing, water troughs) has paid dividends in this regard.

Now l haven't managed to be able set up a system to do this in the winter time. Basically stock need to be seen daily. They sh*t in water troughs, silage needs to be shoved in. I believe there is an opportunity for some inventor to automate and address these issues. l calculate there is roughly 3 times the man hours with stock in the wintertime.

Cons.. with summer grazing there would be more time needed to source stock in springtime and more stock to be sold in backend. The logistics of this would have to be looked at. If a good lad could be got to source cattle and drop in yard in spring, it would leave only the selling for the farmer to contend with.
A lot more topping to keep control of grass in May and June. The option to bale and sell surplus could be looked at.

Definitely food for thought. It is something l will be giving careful consideration to.

Tomjim · 28-09-2018 9:54pm

Anyone with a link to a previous thread where a poster was bragging about the return he was making from I think it was summer grazing

Cavanjack · 28-09-2018 11:17pm

Tomjim wrote: »

Anyone with a link to a previous thread where a poster was bragging about the return he was making from I think it was summer grazing

There is a thread going somewhere about compulsive lying, I think You'll find him there.

Bass Reeves · 28-09-2018 11:31pm

Cavanjack wrote: »

There is a thread going somewhere about compulsive lying, I think You'll find him there.

If it is the lad I am thinking about he was banned. But as for lying that is a bit harsh. He has a system going where he had a dealer buying in lightish yearlings and he got goodish weigh onto them. His were coming in early March his numbers were small and I think he made and sold a bit of silage as well. He used to get 180+ kgs onto the cattle. Most of the cattle he seemed to get were badly wintered sucklers that had a frame but were not export quality. Was he New Beef Farmer or something like that.

Willfarman · 28-09-2018 11:54pm

I was against him ding dong. Look if we all ran our farms like we were renting them, graze it extensively, and sell silage bales off the swarth.. no maintenance, p and k , drainage, reseeding,hedge trimming, building, it would appear to leave a profit but how long would that last before the soil grows little but crows foot rushes or rag worth.. Then the wet years and the freak of this summer drought. No get rich quick.. ap2016 or something similar.

restive · 29-09-2018 12:19am

This thread badly needs AP2014

Bass Reeves · 29-09-2018 10:15am

Never wrestle with pigs wrote: »

Don't think that there should be any profit in it if the real farmers that winter stock can't make a Bob.

What is a real farmer. For years part time farmers were called hobby farmers by the FJ and IFA and a few others Any farmer that was not full time was a.hobby farmer. Nearly every second beef farmer that is so call full time either hauls cattle, is a factory agent, a dealer or a small time contractor. Most of the lads that do nothing else are single men in there sixties.

As Seamus Mallon said the Good Friday agreement was Sunningdale for slow learners. Well it was the same for with the snobbery about part time beef farmers. It was name calling by slow learners. My attitude to anything is to look at the numbers and if they do not stack up exit it. Winter finishing is a dead duck until we get forward pricing for these cattle or processors stop acting the dick from Christmass on.

Willfarman wrote: »

I was against him ding dong. Look if we all ran our farms like we were renting them, graze it extensively, and sell silage bales off the swarth.. no maintenance, p and k , drainage, reseeding,hedge trimming, building, it would appear to leave a profit but how long would that last before the soil grows little but crows foot rushes or rag worth.. Then the wet years and the freak of this summer drought. No get rich quick.. ap2016 or something similar.

Restive has it AP2014. His system did not suit everyone. He lived a bit away from the land he inherited. He maximised his SFP ANC and REPs at the time. He stocked and a bit with it to collect his payments. If I remember he may have fed a bit of silage in the spring and autumn to maximise cattle returns. I remember it was pointed out to him about P&K loss in silage and he was starting to take that on board. Himself and wrangler had a few set too's

White Clover · 29-09-2018 12:23pm

Not sure if he looks in but it would be nice if he gave us his twopence worth now...If the mods could see their way in allowing him to contribute, if only for a few days or a week ?

kk.man · 29-09-2018 12:53pm

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Never wrestle with pigs wrote: »

Don't think that there should be any profit in it if the real farmers that winter stock can't make a Bob.

What is a real farmer. For years part time farmers were called hobby farmers by the FJ and IFA and a few others Any farmer that was not full time was a.hobby farmer. Nearly every second beef farmer that is so call full time either hauls cattle, is a factory agent, a dealer or a small time contractor. Most of the lads that do nothing else are single men in there sixties.

As Seamus Mallon said the Good Friday agreement was Sunningdale for slow learners. Well it was the same for with the snobbery about part time beef farmers. It was name calling by slow learners. My attitude to anything is to look at the numbers and if they do not stack up exit it. Winter finishing is a dead duck until we get forward pricing for these cattle or processors stop acting the dick from Christmass on.

Willfarman wrote: »

I was against him ding dong. Look if we all ran our farms like we were renting them, graze it extensively, and sell silage bales off the swarth.. no maintenance, p and k , drainage, reseeding,hedge trimming, building, it would appear to leave a profit but how long would that last before the soil grows little but crows foot rushes or rag worth.. Then the wet years and the freak of this summer drought. No get rich quick.. ap2016 or something similar.

Restive has it AP2014. His system did not suit everyone. He lived a bit away from the land he inherited. He maximised his SFP ANC and REPs at the time. He stocked and a bit with it to collect his payments. If I remember he may have fed a bit of silage in the spring and autumn to maximise cattle returns. I remember it was pointed out to him about P&K loss in silage and he was starting to take that on board. Himself and wrangler had a few set too's

Love the Seamus Mallom quote!

Siamsa Sessions · 29-09-2018 8:22pm

Straw poll: if you won 5,000 Euro on a scratch card and wanted to spend it on cattle next March, what would you buy?

Never wrestle with pigs · 29-09-2018 8:36pm

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

Straw poll: if you won 5,000 Euro on a scratch card and wanted to spend it on cattle next March, what would you buy?

Cull cows, I think they are going to be scarce as anything that blinked wrong the last 12 months got a happy meal.

Bass Reeves · 29-09-2018 10:29pm

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

Straw poll: if you won 5,000 Euro on a scratch card and wanted to spend it on cattle next March, what would you buy?

It would depend on when you wanted to sell. If you were in for the longhaul I buy yearlings if they were not on fire.

Siamsa Sessions · 01-10-2018 10:10am

Bass Reeves wrote: »

It would depend on when you wanted to sell. If you were in for the longhaul I buy yearlings if they were not on fire.

I'm going to give the game away now and outline my brilliant plan to make a fortune from cattle!

(Most of it came from reading threads on here)

1. Buy yearling HE or AA cross heifers in March/April, around the 250-300kg mark (550-600 Euro); if coloured ones were available at the right price I'd look at them too
2. Put 150-180kg on them at grass on til October, and house then in our own straw-bed shed; budget is approx. 200 Euro for silage, meal, and straw
3. Sell out of the shed in March, at north of 500kg and hopefully 250kg deadweight

At 4 Euro/kg, they might leave 100-150 Euro per head after various other costs (transport, dose, fixed costs, etc.)

Are these figures wildly optimistic or just regular optimistic?

Mooooo · 01-10-2018 10:46am

The only person I know at summer grazing picks up cull cow's early in the spring and kills them thru the summer. Over winters very few cattle at all. Its the buying in price where he looks for profit more than the selling price

coolshannagh28 · 01-10-2018 10:53am

Mooooo wrote: »

The only person I know at summer grazing picks up cull cow's early in the spring and kills them thru the summer. Over winters very few cattle at all. Its the buying in price where he looks for profit more than the selling price

This is a logical approach as the growing is done and weight goes on quickly, they can be bought right in late feb ,early march and pushed out when prices peak and grass starts to fail in late july.

Bass Reeves · 01-10-2018 12:44pm

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

I'm going to give the game away now and outline my brilliant plan to make a fortune from cattle!

(Most of it came from reading threads on here)

1. Buy yearling HE or AA cross heifers in March/April, around the 250-300kg mark (550-600 Euro); if coloured ones were available at the right price I'd look at them too
2. Put 150-180kg on them at grass on til October, and house then in our own straw-bed shed; budget is approx. 200 Euro for silage, meal, and straw
3. Sell out of the shed in March, at north of 500kg and hopefully 250kg deadweight

At 4 Euro/kg, they might leave 100-150 Euro per head after various other costs (transport, dose, fixed costs, etc.)

Are these figures wildly optimistic or just regular optimistic?

If the If you have to keep them in a shed ffrom late October to March to finish to finish you would be at nothing. Straw bedding finishing cattle is a disaster. Impossible to keep straw under them. If they were 270 kgs in March and you put 180 kgs on them during the summer you would expect to have them 450 at housing in October. 50 days finishing would have them out pre Christmass at 250 DW. Assuming that they are HE/AA and they grade O-/O= on balance and you get the breed bonus of 10c/kg at a base of 4/kg thsi would give you a final price of 3.95/kg or a gross pricwe of 987. If they cost you 575 in the yard in the spring it would leave a gross margin of 402.

Costs ?, grass 75 euro, dosing-vet-mortality 25 euro, transport-mart fees-slaughter fees 45 euro. finishing costs 50days at 2.70/day 135 euro, misc 30 euro. Total costs are 310 euro, net margin is 92 euro.

charolais0153 · 01-10-2018 1:29pm

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

I'm going to give the game away now and outline my brilliant plan to make a fortune from cattle!

(Most of it came from reading threads on here)

1. Buy yearling HE or AA cross heifers in March/April, around the 250-300kg mark (550-600 Euro); if coloured ones were available at the right price I'd look at them too
2. Put 150-180kg on them at grass on til October, and house then in our own straw-bed shed; budget is approx. 200 Euro for silage, meal, and straw
3. Sell out of the shed in March, at north of 500kg and hopefully 250kg deadweight

At 4 Euro/kg, they might leave 100-150 Euro per head after various other costs (transport, dose, fixed costs, etc.)

Are these figures wildly optimistic or just regular optimistic?

I dont think any cattle finished out of shed leave anything.
Had an angus heifer calf march 17 bought to suck a cow, kept ticking over. Shes being killed today. I think she'll kill 260 kilos maybe more. Sold to butcher,might get 3.90 we'll see. Prob make 1000 or a bit with it. Bought for 250e as a calf.she didnt cost the world and got only 80kg meal to finish her. Should increase the ko a bit. You would Prob buy weanling heifers over 200kg for 400 now. Would be a nice turn in them. Easier kept than heifer twice their age in a straw shed

Dakota Dan · 01-10-2018 1:50pm

charolais0153 wrote: »

Make Plenty of cash from sheep if ya wanted

You’d want to spend a fortune on fencing or else be great on your legs.

Dakota Dan · 01-10-2018 1:58pm

Genghis Cant wrote: »

Here's a bullock I bought in spring late April. Red Lim, 595 kgs €1440. Killed late Sept 393 kgs R=3=, €1503.
Never again.

Jaysus, how much did you lose on him after all costs? Anyone remember that money in beef thread by APR14, he was going to put his figures up but it still wasn’t possible to figure out the profit he claimed as he just gave a shoddy snapshot of his sales docket.

He came back later with an update only saw other posters mention him after writing this post, here’s a link.

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057349066/1/#post93549914

Profit in Summer Grazing

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