Farm workers wages!

Coonagh · 31-12-2014 1:04am

trixi2011 wrote: »

Do a lot of jobs also come with accommodation ? On a managers wage get the rent paid on a house in the local town and some heifer calves and nearly 40 days paid holidays a year can't complain at all.

That craic is dying out most lads want to sort out their own accommodation now and in my situation I had no interest in becoming a landlord aswell

ihatewinter · 31-12-2014 1:15am

Deepsouthwest wrote: »

Have ye a farm as well?

I farm, he doesn't. He never had an interest. I inherited from my grand uncle as I was the only one to show an interest and I use to help him during weekends etc. He's the only one out of his family not to farm in any capacity.

Deepsouthwest · 31-12-2014 1:21am

ihatewinter wrote: »

I farm, he doesn't. He never had an interest. I inherited from my grand uncle as I was the only one to show an interest and I use to help him during weekends etc. He's the only one out of his family not to farm in any capacity.

Just checking!!

Feckthis · 31-12-2014 2:59am

Coonagh wrote: »

IMO wage for a farm manager in an around 35-45K gross depending on conditions and experience. Quarterly performance related bonuses would also be on top of that. Serious problem coming down the road there's a complete lack of experienced herdspeople/2ic/managers in the country and those that do want to work in the industry have very strong wage expectations relative to their experience and skill level.

Look it's coming down to this again. There is plenty of experienced young herdsman/managers coming up. I know there is. But if you want them you have to pay for it simples. You need to accept that the cost of living is rising and so should the pay check.
This whole thinking of farmers wanting everything for noting needs to change.

If your going to take someone on why not do it on a 4-6 month contract basis's. If he is not cutting it, for you get rid and try again.

If you don't want to pay for what you get. Don't employ!

Blackgrass · 31-12-2014 2:59am

Timmaay wrote: »

Going back to the debate at hand, is 50k too much for a dairy farm manager? To be honest the dairy farm owner will rightly so pay as little as they can (they need to keep on top of all farm costs, including labour), yes of course they need someone reliable, but equally so they don't need to hire a Nasa engineer to milk cows, feed, manage stock etc. From the point of view of a prospective dairyfarm manager they should just be using the likes of a "small" Irish herd (say managing 250cows) as a stepping stone, if they take to this well and are really showing their true potential in helping drive forward the farm they are involved with, but are refused a pay increase that they think they deserve then they should be looking at changing jobs, either to a bigger farm, move abroad, or look at setting up theirown dairy business, people need to wake up to this reality.

Wha you describe s what i'd call a farm foreman, does the day to day running some of the paperwork but not much of the planning or aiming in a direction iykwim. Different if they're let off the leash so to speak to decide where to go in 5 years etc

billie holiday · 31-12-2014 3:50am

The tax is the problem lads. There is a high cost to employing people.
my guy gets 400 into his account every week which costs me over 550 when usc psi pay are paid.
you need a fair few litres monthly to justify it

Coonagh · 31-12-2014 8:25am

Feckthis wrote: »

Look it's coming down to this again. There is plenty of experienced young herdsman/managers coming up. I know there is. But if you want them you have to pay for it simples. You need to accept that the cost of living is rising and so should the pay check.
This whole thinking of farmers wanting everything for noting needs to change.

If your going to take someone on why not do it on a 4-6 month contract basis's. If he is not cutting it, for you get rid and try again.

If you don't want to pay for what you get. Don't employ!

What do you think the rate should be? In the supermarket trade the upper limit for a store manager is 45k gross plus bonuses.

Another thing is when taking someone on or discussing terms only ever quote gross pay in negotiations net pay is between him and the tax man.

Coonagh · 31-12-2014 8:27am

billie holiday wrote: »

The tax is the problem lads. There is a high cost to employing people.
my guy gets 400 into his account every week which costs me over 550 when usc psi pay are paid.
you need a fair few litres monthly to justify it

28K gross salary will cost the business 31.6K after employers prsi contribution

Coonagh · 31-12-2014 8:31am

billie holiday wrote: »

The tax is the problem lads. There is a high cost to employing people.
my guy gets 400 into his account every week which costs me over 550 when usc psi pay are paid.
you need a fair few litres monthly to justify it

Why are you paying his usc?

red_diesel · 31-12-2014 9:13am

Coonagh wrote: »

What do you think the rate should be? In the supermarket trade the upper limit for a store manager is 45k gross plus bonuses.

Another thing is when taking someone on or discussing terms only ever quote gross pay in negotiations net pay is between him and the tax man.

Accountants, teachers, IT workers can all expect to be on 55k + after 10 to 15 years working. It seems we in agriculture expect that just because someone has a passion for the land and cows that they will be willing to work for less. In fairness to you lads you have rightly pointed out that you can not simply pay 50k +.
This situation won't get any better any time soon with milk prices likely to be in the 20's in 2015. Is the best hope for a degree holding ag graduate to make a decent wage to get a job in Teagasc or a big co-op?

Coonagh · 31-12-2014 9:18am

red_diesel wrote: »

[\Quote="Coonagh;93627842"]What do you think the rate should be? In the supermarket trade the upper limit for a store manager is 45k gross plus bonuses.

Another thing is when taking someone on or discussing terms only ever quote gross pay in negotiations net pay is between him and the tax man.

Accountants, teachers, IT workers can all expect to be on 55k + after 10 to 15 years working. It seems we in agriculture expect that just because someone has a passion for the land and cows that they will be willing to work for less. In fairness to you lads you have rightly pointed out that you can not simply pay 50k +.
This situation won't get any better any time soon with milk prices likely to be in the 20's in 2015. Is the best hope for a degree holding ag graduate to make a decent wage to get a job in Teagasc or a big co-op?[/quote]

Your right and I see no reason why someone working as a farm manager after 10-15 years couldn't be on 50k + a year, but that would entirely depend on that guys ability and ambition. There will be plenty of opportunities over the coming years for these kind of people. Austin Finn of the land mobility service has come out and said that there is more blocks of land available than farmers willing to take them on. But they have to start somewhere.

Farmer Pudsey · 31-12-2014 11:25am

frazzledhome wrote: »

For a 6 day week netting 100 per day with prsi paye and USC its costing €146 per day That's € 876 per week €45k per yr I'm phucked if any farm worker is worth more than this

This lad is married and wife not working or in a very low paid job

If single with no deductions a 45500 salary gives an income of 629/week and marrried and using wifes allowances to say below higher marginal rate it give a wage of 697.

stretch film · 31-12-2014 11:32am

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

This lad is married and wife not working or in a very low paid job

If single with no deductions a 45500 salary gives an income of 629/week and marrried and using wifes allowances to say below higher marginal rate it give a wage of 697.

Thats great money imo for a man I didnt see described as a manager just a reliable hardworking labourer.

stretch film · 31-12-2014 11:34am

Coonagh wrote: »

Why are you paying his usc?

His usc comes outta the farms labour bill

Fuxake · 31-12-2014 2:18pm

This whole farm wages thing is a minefield.

It starts with minimum wage, what you can get on the dole and the cost of living in the Irish economy- all excessive in my view. But farmers have to wake and deal with reality that these things are as they are in Ireland. If you think that you can pay someone around the minimum wage, then you have to realise you are either going to get an inexperienced youth or a complete waster or both.

So, minimum wage is 8.65/hour- gross. However, the gross v net argument is made complicated by the absurd way that our tax system works.

So a guy on 8.65/hour working up to 40 hours is exemp from employee PRSI (4%) but give him 10/hr and he's getting deducted the 4%

USC is 2-4% up to 16016/ annum ( is going down slightly in 2015) but jumps to 7% above that.

INcome tax was kicking in at 41% in 2014 on earnings above €32800. But also you ahve to factor in the way that tax credits work which again provide no additional benefit above €16500 annual wage.

This ultimately means that what Frazzled is doing makes no sense to me when you think in worker taxation terms. By that I mean that there is just no logic to slave-driving a guy with a 60 hour week because most of these extra hours are costing 100 to deliver 48 to the worker. Outcome is the worker is getting very little benefit at a cost in terms of how long he (or his wife and family) will stick at it and meanwhile the employer is paying taxes through the nose.

ON a purely taxation point of view ( and I know there are other factors to assess) it would be far better to reduce the guy's hours to a more civlised 40 and either find ways of reducing the workload or alternatively take on a youth or apprentice (maybe part-time) and make sure to pay him less than €350/week.

I have some sympathy with Fraszzled when he says that 45,000 is a good gross wage. Yes it is for a 40 hour week. However, in most manual or factory jobs once you work more than 40 hours you're into overtime (time and a half, double time on Sundays, shift allowances etc0. I know some employers are trying to pull away from that but that's the reality of what you are competing with. So on a like for like basis a guy earning 45k on a 60 hour week is really on a basic wage of 30,000 which is not all that extraordinary or actually more like 27,000 if you factor in overtime rates.

Of course there are all kinds of reasons why you mightn't want a second guy around the place on a steep learning curve.

The problem to go back to my initial point is that the guy on 8.65/hour is keeping a big percentage of it. But if you want to give him 12/hour take home the gross cost goes thru the roof (eg Frazz maybe paying 14.40/hour to deliver 10?)

But from the worker's point of view- if the waster or youth is taking home 8.65 then a hard working Pole will want at least 10/hour into the hand. And then how do you reward the Paddy who is hard working, reliable AND knowledgeable about cows, machinery and can be left to work without supervision?

dar31 · 31-12-2014 2:42pm

there has been all sorts of annual wages thrown about for a farm manager.
but what is a farm manager
to me they would have work of their own accord as well as manage anyone under them as in casual labor
be responsible of all feed budgeting, ie grass, silage - feeding and making and meal usage.
animal health, implementing vaccination and dosing programs, keep the remedies records, tagging and resister calves, look after blue cards.
on a finical side, they should take part in budgeting, short and med term, understand cash flow situation, they should understand these and be able to work to guide lines in relation to them

on the other side they would take part in monthly planning meetings, and weekly reviews to whats going on

at the end of the day if they want to call them selves managers, then they must manage
these lads are worth €50k/€60 + per year

by the way some of these lads would probably be better than the actual owners!!!!

pbthevet · 31-12-2014 2:50pm

Surely the farmer himself would be struggling to make 50/60k a year let alone pay that to the help!

Base price · 31-12-2014 3:34pm

The legal position regarding employment law and farm workers.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2010/en/si/0164.html

jaymla627 · 31-12-2014 4:38pm

Fuxake wrote: »

This whole farm wages thing is a minefield.

It starts with minimum wage, what you can get on the dole and the cost of living in the Irish economy- all excessive in my view. But farmers have to wake and deal with reality that these things are as they are in Ireland. If you think that you can pay someone around the minimum wage, then you have to realise you are eitoher going to get an inexperienced youth or a complete waster or both.

So, minimum wage is 8.65/hour- gross. However, the gross v net argument is made complicated by the absurd way that our tax system works.

So a guy on 8.65/hour working up to 40 hours is exemp from employee PRSI (4%) but give him 10/hr and he's getting deducted the 4%

USC is 2-4% up to 16016/ annum ( is going down slightly in 2015) but jumps to 7% above that.

INcome tax was kicking in at 41% in 2014 on earnings above €32800. But also you ahve to factor in the way that tax credits work which again provide no additional benefit above €16500 annual wage.

This ultimately means that what Frazzled is doing makes no sense to me when you think in worker taxation terms. By that I mean that there is just no logic to slave-driving a guy with a 60 hour week because most of these extra hours are costing 100 to deliver 48 to the worker. Outcome is the worker is getting very little benefit at a cost in terms of how long he (or his wife and family) will stick at it and meanwhile the employer is paying taxes through the nose.

ON a purely taxation point of view ( and I know there are other factors to assess) it would be far better to reduce the guy's hours to a more civlised 40 and either find ways of reducing the workload or alternatively take on a youth or apprentice (maybe part-time) and make sure to pay him less than €350/week.

I have some sympathy with Fraszzled when he says that 45,000 is a good gross wage. Yes it is for a 40 hour week. However, in most manual or factory jobs once you work more than 40 hours you're into overtime (time and a half, double time on Sundays, shift allowances etc0. I know some employers are trying to pull away from that but that's the reality of what you are competing with. So on a like for like basis a guy earning 45k on a 60 hour week is really on a basic wage of 30,000 which is not all that extraordinary or actually more like 27,000 if you factor in overtime rates.

Of course there are all kinds of reasons why you mightn't want a second guy around the place on a steep learning curve.

The problem to go back to my initial point is that the guy on 8.65/hour is keeping a big percentage of it. But if you want to give him 12/hour take home the gross cost goes thru the roof (eg Frazz maybe paying 14.40/hour to deliver 10?)

But from the worker's point of view- if the waster or youth is taking home 8.65 then a hard working Pole will want at least 10/hour into the hand. And then how do you reward the Paddy who is hard working, reliable AND knowledgeable about cows, machinery and can be left to work without supervision?

Alot of Good points above, their are two really simple ways to get around it by providing a house and say a company Jeep/van, both combined would be worth at least the guts of 250 euro a week to the worker, and pay a wage say in our around 400 a week Net

Farmer Pudsey · 31-12-2014 8:39pm

stretch film wrote: »

Thats great money imo for a man I didnt see described as a manager just a reliable hardworking labourer.

I would not describe him as a labourer. I imagine if employed in other industry's the lads most are looking for would be described as self starter, ability to work on own initiative, problem solver, ability to work unsupervised etc.

This is totally different from a minimum wage employee. It is my understanding that most big retailers (Dunnes Tesco) are paying 11/hour to people starting with them and rising to 14/hour. Wage rates in Agriculture have always being at the bottom of the ladder pay wise. I cannot see this changing. To put it in perceptive General operatives in a factory near me on shift are on 50K+/year. I have heard of situtations where the rate is much higher. This is generally for a 40 hour week on a three cycle shift.

The reality is that most of these jobs will not have career openings and in general wages will be flat over lifetime. On the plus side for Dairy farmers on 100 acres milking 70-80 cows which will have low external labour input it will mean a good living. The ability to expand beyond will need different skills. Land and labour will be the limiting factors.

For the larger operator with multiple milking parlours and herds he will require a totally different type of farm employee. His first issue is how to cope with employing people for a 7 day week and 12+ hour working days. Labour law will be a huge issue. 11 hour breaks between shifts, and a average limit of 48 hours over 4 months. I say Frazzel would be under pressure on this one with the lad working for him doing a 57 hour week. He have to be laying him off one week in six.

Lads have to get away from quoting net rates. They need to quote what gross is/hour and number of hours/week. As the economy lifts so will wages and good workers will be hard to source and hold onto.

doubie · 01-01-2015 8:44am

10/hr what's wrong with that lads? What other job would ye get that with out being qualified?

frazzledhome · 01-01-2015 9:03am

Lads. Is it a farm worker, manager or decision maker ye're employing. That what decided pay rate

Just cause a lad went to UCD and did a course doesn't entitle them to a big wedge. They must prove themselves on the ground

Robson99 · 01-01-2015 9:28am

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

To put it in perceptive General operatives in a factory near me on shift are on 50K+/year. I have heard of situtations where the rate is much higher. This is generally for a 40 hour week on a three cycle shift.

Jesus FP thats some factory that can be paying the guts of 25 Euro per hour for GO.

Farmer Pudsey · 01-01-2015 11:24am

doubie wrote: »

10/hr what's wrong with that lads? What other job would ye get that with out being qualified?

What is a trade/skill. In Germany there are 900 skills/trades. In Ireland we train and think there is only 50 or 60. And like I pointed out Dunnes start at 11/hour going to 14/hour for low/un skilled workers. Most small shops are paying at least 9/hour. The dole is at least 4.5/hour and you do not have to get out of bed.

frazzledhome wrote: »

Lads. Is it a farm worker, manager or decision maker ye're employing. That what decided pay rate

Just cause a lad went to UCD and did a course doesn't entitle them to a big wedge. They must prove themselves on the ground

This is the critical point a farmer with 80 cows is looking for a lad that he will supervise 50-80% of the time. The Farmer employing a lad that is milking and working on an different milking platform is looking at a different type of worker.

Most farmers are looking for a lad that can drive a tractor , feed the cattle with it, milk a few time a week etc. Ideally they want a lad that if a problem arises he will solve it himself or at least start to diagnosis the problem.

However the other reality is that farming is a low margin business so this causes conflict over the rate applied

onyerbikepat · 01-01-2015 12:16pm

stretch film wrote: »

His usc comes outta the farms labour bill

What? The USC, payed by the worker, is tax detuctable to the employer? :eek:

In fairness guys, how many farms can afford to pay a wage of €50k to an extra worker? You are talking about very big operations.

Feckthis · 01-01-2015 2:42pm

frazzledhome wrote: »

Lads. Is it a farm worker, manager or decision maker ye're employing. That what decided pay rate

Just cause a lad went to UCD and did a course doesn't entitle them to a big wedge. They must prove themselves on the ground

What wage should each get then frazzled?
And what are their job descriptions?

stretch film · 01-01-2015 2:59pm

onyerbikepat wrote: »

What? The USC, payed by the worker, is tax detuctable to the employer? :eek:

In fairness guys, how many farms can afford to pay a wage of €50k to an extra worker? You are talking about very big operations.

yes...it aint the farmers fault his labour costs ,aka the employees gross, is subject to tax and usc:(... he/she even covers the cost of collecting this for the government as their "agent":(:(

onyerbikepat · 01-01-2015 4:41pm

stretch film wrote: »

yes...it aint the farmers fault his labour costs ,aka the employees gross, is subject to tax and usc:(... he/she even covers the cost of collecting this for the government as their "agent":(:(

Ya, but it's the employees gross that is tax deductable to the business, not his USC.

stretch film · 01-01-2015 5:39pm

onyerbikepat wrote: »

Ya, but it's the employees gross that is tax deductable to the business, not his USC.

Gross -tax -usc - prsi =net as you know. Total farm related expense is the gross (+employ prsi) the rest is the employee's business between him and government . They just get the farmer to do their dirty work.

mf240 · 01-01-2015 6:06pm

Lads it takes all the milk from 26.5 5000 litre cows at 40 cent to pay the 53k gross that frazz mentioned . So that means he only has the other 390 for himself .

Farm workers wages!

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