Ireland's Jewish community

Hurrache · 11-07-2019 8:33pm

Probably because people are more brazen as it appears the leadership does nothing about it, taking it almost as an endorsement. Similar to the far right in the states.

Mad_maxx · 11-07-2019 8:34pm

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

Well then the propaganda has worked on you.

Here’s a question: do people think that Labour was always anti Semitic or that it has only become so recently. If so what mechanism was used to allow anti semites into the party. If Corbyn is anti Semitic then why wasn’t this mentioned when he was a backbencher ?

Indeed, it takes more than a few years for anti semetism to be systematic as is claimed, not a word about it while Gordon brown or Tony Blair were at the helm

If anything you would expect more of it amongst tories as they traditionally tend to distrust anyone who isn't WASP

That Muslims tend to vote Labour is not that relevant, Muslims would not have a significant role within the upper echelons

Tony EH · 11-07-2019 8:43pm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

That Muslims tend to vote Labour is not that relevant, Muslims would not have a significant role within the upper echelons

Jews tend to vote Labour too, even with all of this smear campaign going on. Traditionally, the Labour Party has always been the more attractive political option for British Jews. In fact, Israel itself was generally seen as a rather lefty place for many years.

This was until the Likud started to cosy up to right wing governments across the globe in a serious way. Now, all of a sudden, Labour are "anti Semitic".

Strange that, innit.

Mad_maxx · 11-07-2019 8:45pm

Tony EH wrote: »

Corbyn is bad news for a number of sectors. The Blairites, who want to regain control of the party. He's bad news for the Tories who want to remain in power and he's bad news for the Likud who want to destroy any hope of a two State solution in Palestine.

They are the actors who gain the most from ousting Corbyn.

Corbyn won't have any influence over what the Israeli government does

I would not vote for a party with a leader as left wing as corbyn but I believe the media have treated him disgracefully, I don't believe the anti semetism lark either

Tony EH · 11-07-2019 8:46pm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Corbyn won't have any influence over what the Israeli government does

No, but getting rid of him helps quash vocal support for a two state solution in Palestine.

Gimme A Pound · 11-07-2019 8:48pm

I'm the one who brought up anti semitism in the British Labour Party. I actually said I don't think Corbyn himself is anti Semitic, and I too thought that all the talk was a smear campaign just because Corbyn is a critic of Israel.

Then I watched the Panorama investigation. I recommend watching it if you can. Extremely eye opening stuff. Still don't think Corbyn himself is anti Semitic but absolutely do think there is a very strong element of it in his wider party. It is other people in the Labour Party who are saying this, not just those outside it. And Jewish Labour Party members spoke about their experiences also.

Mad_maxx wrote: »

That labour party anti semetic hysteria is nothing but a carefully engineered smear job to prevent corbyn becoming PM, there was no talk of any of this when Labour had centrist leaders

My follow-up post addressed that. The full-on socialist types stopped bothering with Labour for the Blair and Brown years. When Corbyn, one of their own, became Labour leader, they flocked in their droves to become involved again, and this has correlated with the rise in anti semitism.

Mad_maxx · 11-07-2019 8:48pm

Tony EH wrote: »

Jews tend to vote Labour too, even with all of this smear campaign going on. Traditionally, the Labour Party has always been the more attractive political option for British Jews. In fact, Israel itself was generally seen as a rather lefty place for many years.

This was until the Likud started to cosy up to right wing governments across the globe in a serious way. Now, all of a sudden, Labour are "anti Semitic".

Strange that, innit.

Knew that Jews tended to vote Labour, like I said the Conservatives tended to be a WASP only house or at least used to

sweet_trip · 11-07-2019 8:49pm

My great grandfather was around during the civil war era and the IRA etc.
I don't remember the exact details but he was involved in a military sense.
I remember him telling me about how executions used to happen in the barracks he was stationed in in west cork, IRA executions I think.

I distinctly remember him telling me also about how the Jews were often burnt out of it and ran out of town by the Irish at the time as some of the IRA were quite supportive of Hitler.

Somebody please correct me because I'm terrible with Irish history, and not sure if it was actually the IRA or opposing sides who were responsible for this.

But yeah, apparently it happened regardless and a lot of this just never made the history books.

He also told me of how some captured brits were executed in the most gruesome manner. Made to step on landmines.

Spanish Eyes · 11-07-2019 8:50pm

I don't know any Jewish people now, but did back in the day. Grew up on one of the streets off Clanbrassil Street, very gentrified now of course. Back then lots of houses had Jewish families. You'd know by the mezuzah on the door. They were lovely people altogether, and we mixed well as kids.

The orthodox Jews would give us money on a Friday to get the messages for them for Saturday. They were not allowed to handle money and a few other things that I have forgotten now. Their synagogue was up on Terenure Road having moved from Adelaide Road as the Jews moved further into the Terenure/Clanbrassil areas. There were kosher butchers on Clanbrassil street, many of them.

A Mr. Coleman from our area owned a "walk around store" on Aungier Street, and some of my family members worked there on a Saturday because the owner was not allowed to handle money.

They are all gone now, but there are some left probably in Terenure/Rathgar now. The rest went off to Israel.

There are two Jewish cemeteries in Dublin, on off the North Strand and the other in Dolpins Barn. The Dolphins Barn cemetery famously was the place where the Gilligan gang stashed their weapons of destruction back then.

Fascinating to me as I grew up around them. Sorry for the essay, here is a little info anyway.....

https://www.dublincity.ie/dublin-buildings/terenure-synagogue

Hurrache · 11-07-2019 8:52pm

Gimme A Pound wrote: »

The full-on trade socialist types stopped bothering with Labour for the Blair and Brown years. When Corbyn, one of their own became Labour leader, They flocked in their droves to become involved again, and this has correlated with the rise in anti semitism.

It really is this simple. "New Labour" alienated them since Blair and his successors. Now certain types are returning and brining more extreme views. Corbyn hasn't done anything publicly, or apparently privately, to do anything about it so those views, as I said, become more brazen.

Occams's razor. There's no grand City of London or media conspiracy against him.

Franz Von Peppercorn II · 11-07-2019 9:00pm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Indeed, it takes more than a few years for anti semetism to be systematic as is claimed, not a word about it while Gordon brown or Tony Blair were at the helm

If anything you would expect more of it amongst tories as they traditionally tend to distrust anyone who isn't WASP

That Muslims tend to vote Labour is not that relevant, Muslims would not have a significant role within the upper echelons

Very few Muslim labour voters were accused of anti Semitism.

There was one Muslim female Labour Party MP member (Naz Shah) who posted an image of Israel overlaid on the US, which was apparently the worst crime ever, but she did it during Ed Millibands reign during which time nothing was said. Then it was discovered by a hefty trawl though the tweets of all MPs a few years later.

I think that was the start of the “Labour is anti Semitic” campaign although prior to that Corbyn was under attack for anti Israel and supposedly pro IRA sentiment. In fact his relations with the IRA dominated the first year or so.

Remember, and this is telling, that the non collegial response of the then prime minister David Cameron to Corbyn’s election that he was.

“A threat to our national security, to our economic security and to the security of your family”.

Not sure about the family bit, Jeremy isn’t much of a philanderer, the economic stuff is standard Tory discourse about labour, but the national security stuff is fairly unique and hard hitting. Also first in the list. The most important thing.

These kind of speeches are generally vetted by the civil service or the deep state, and therefore it’s clear that the powers that be were agin him from the start.

The anti semitism thing is part of this campaign, the idea being that he is deselected by his own people before he comes to power and threatens national security by not invading countries that aren’t threats to the U.K.

A very British coup.

(Might be entertaining if he is prime minister to see the reaction)

odyssey06 · 11-07-2019 9:00pm

sweet_trip wrote: »

I distinctly remember him telling me also about how the Jews were often burnt out of it and ran out of town by the Irish at the time as some of the IRA were quite supportive of Hitler.

Haven't heard anything about that... there was a Limerick boycott in 1904 but it was a religious thing rather than IRA led:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Ireland#World_War_II_and_aftermath

And in the 1920s an IRA campaign targeted money lenders, many of which were Jewish.
http://www.theirishstory.com/2011/08/24/the-1926-ira-campaign-against-moneylenders/#.XSeTdflKjIU

I think most of the criticism was that the Irish government did not do more to help Jewish refugees.

The IRA links to the Nazis are well known, and the shameful statue of a Nazi collaborator remains in Dublin - but I haven't heard about such overt attacks.

Franz Von Peppercorn II · 11-07-2019 9:03pm

Hurrache wrote: »

It really is this simple. "New Labour" alienated them since Blair and his successors. Now certain types are returning and brining more extreme views. Corbyn hasn't done anything publicly, or apparently privately, to do anything about it so those views, as I said, become more brazen.

Occams's razor. There's no grand City of London or media conspiracy against him.

Hang on. When has the British left historically been anti Semitic? What kind of anti historical cretinism is it to condemn the trade union movement as anti Semitic?

It’s not the primarily city of London anyway, no more than any other labour leader, but of course capitalists will try discredit radical socialists. In other news the pope sh1ts inthe wood.

(Or is that bears? I can never get that right).

Franz Von Peppercorn II · 11-07-2019 9:05pm

sweet_trip wrote: »

My great grandfather was around during the civil war era and the IRA etc.
I don't remember the exact details but he was involved in a military sense.
I remember him telling me about how executions used to happen in the barracks he was stationed in in west cork, IRA executions I think.

I distinctly remember him telling me also about how the Jews were often burnt out of it and ran out of town by the Irish at the time as some of the IRA were quite supportive of Hitler.

Somebody please correct me because I'm terrible with Irish history, and not sure if it was actually the IRA or opposing sides who were responsible for this.

But yeah, apparently it happened regardless and a lot of this just never made the history books.

He also told me of how some captured brits were executed in the most gruesome manner. Made to step on landmines.

It would take an entire thread to dismantle this utter bollocks.

Agent Smith · 11-07-2019 9:06pm

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Karl Marx.

TheValeyard wrote: »

He Dead

His Spirit lives on in the PBP

cameramonkey · 11-07-2019 9:07pm

sweet_trip wrote: »

My great grandfather was around during the civil war era and the IRA etc.
I don't remember the exact details but he was involved in a military sense.
I remember him telling me about how executions used to happen in the barracks he was stationed in in west cork, IRA executions I think.

I distinctly remember him telling me also about how the Jews were often burnt out of it and ran out of town by the Irish at the time as some of the IRA were quite supportive of Hitler.

Somebody please correct me because I'm terrible with Irish history, and not sure if it was actually the IRA or opposing sides who were responsible for this.

But yeah, apparently it happened regardless and a lot of this just never made the history books.

He also told me of how some captured brits were executed in the most gruesome manner. Made to step on landmines.

I think you are mixing things up, Hitler was not around at the time of the Irish civil war or the war of independence. A small amount of Jewish people were forced to leave Limerick in the early 1900s, the instigator of this was a Redemptorists priest.

The landmine incidents may have been when Irish national army troops tied IRA prisoners to mines and exploded them. In one such incident they murdered 9 prisoners.

Spanish Eyes · 11-07-2019 9:07pm

I do realise that threads morph and go off in different directions, but this is about Jewish people in Ireland.

Please start another thread about anti Semitism, the British Labour Party and so on, it doesn't seem right here.

Social history is a great thing.

Tony EH · 11-07-2019 9:11pm

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

It would take an entire thread to dismantle this utter bollocks.

The amount of counter historical/factual gibberish and "utter bollocks" on this thread is absolutely staggering.

Apparently the British Labour Party were always anti Semitic, except for the Blair years and the IRA were more interested in killing Jews than they were in tackling the British during the civil war.

Talk about a post truth world. :rolleyes:

Junkyard Tom · 11-07-2019 9:19pm

Agent Smith wrote: »

His Spirit lives on in the PBP

The stuff Marx Wrote of wasn't novel. Marx hung a sort of political framework on the 'Labour Theory of Value' but the idea predated him and persists long after his death.

I'm not a fan of grand narratives but I do think Marxist notions of democratic control of the means of production will come into sharp focus in the years ahead with the rise of AI and automation.

cameramonkey · 11-07-2019 9:21pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I don't know any Jewish people now, but did back in the day. Grew up on one of the streets off Clanbrassil Street, very gentrified now of course. Back then lots of houses had Jewish families. You'd know by the mezuzah on the door. They were lovely people altogether, and we mixed well as kids.

The orthodox Jews would give us money on a Friday to get the messages for them for Saturday. They were not allowed to handle money and a few other things that I have forgotten now. Their synagogue was up on Terenure Road having moved from Adelaide Road as the Jews moved further into the Terenure/Clanbrassil areas. There were kosher butchers on Clanbrassil street, many of them.

A Mr. Coleman from our area owned a "walk around store" on Aungier Street, and some of my family members worked there on a Saturday because the owner was not allowed to handle money.

They are all gone now, but there are some left probably in Terenure/Rathgar now. The rest went off to Israel.

There are two Jewish cemeteries in Dublin, on off the North Strand and the other in Dolpins Barn. The Dolphins Barn cemetery famously was the place where the Gilligan gang stashed their weapons of destruction back then.

Fascinating to me as I grew up around them. Sorry for the essay, here is a little info anyway.....

https://www.dublincity.ie/dublin-buildings/terenure-synagogue

There is another Jewish cemetery below the hell fire club at woodtown.

Gimme A Pound · 11-07-2019 9:23pm

Re anti semitism now in the Labour Party: I think an extended investigative documentary with this allegation being corroborated by actual members of the Labour Party, Jewish and non Jewish, seems like a reliable document.

I don't think it was always there at all in the British Labour Party though.

"Anti semitism" can certainly be used as an allegation for bullsh1t, underhand reasons (e.g. loyalist types love to pretend that we are crazed anti semitics down here) but I'm not gonna dismiss actual anti semitism because of the above.

Gimme A Pound · 11-07-2019 9:28pm

Tony EH wrote: »

and the IRA were more interested in killing Jews than they were in tackling the British during the civil war.

Talk about a post truth world. :rolleyes:

Jeez who said they were more interested in that? Someone said their grandfather alluded to the IRA killing Jews but asked for clarification. Nobody stated it was a fact.

odyssey06 · 11-07-2019 9:30pm

Big generalisation but Irish antisemitism historically has a strong catholic religious aspect. Jewish immigrants to Ireland were small in number and better off.

In England historically it seemed to be more of a general anti foreigner / class thing. In 19th century they had large immigration to London of working class / peasant background.

odyssey06 · 11-07-2019 9:33pm

The best way to see the jewish cemetary in Fairview Ballybough is from top deck of the 123 as it passes before the old players lounge pub on way to Marino. Sit on left.

Spanish Eyes · 11-07-2019 9:37pm

cameramonkey wrote: »

There is another Jewish cemetery below the hell fire club at woodtown.

Thanks for that, I never knew about it. Some amazing hidden things in Dublin.

https://acloudonastring.wordpress.com/2017/03/15/progressive-jewish-cemetery-woodtown-dublin/

sweet_trip · 11-07-2019 9:38pm

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

It would take an entire thread to dismantle this utter bollocks.

I literally said it wasn't an accurate recollection of what I was told, and I was corrected only a post below. Cool your jets lad.

Tony EH · 11-07-2019 9:39pm

Gimme A Pound wrote: »

Jeez who said they were more interested in that? Someone said their grandfather alluded to the IRA killing Jews but asked for clarification. Nobody stated it was a fact.

Sure, I may be being a bit hard on Sweet Trip, who said said he/she wasn't that well versed in Irish history. But the sheer amount of nonsense in this thread is head spinning.

sweet_trip · 11-07-2019 9:41pm

Tony EH wrote: »

Sure, I may be being a bit hard on Sweet Trip, who said said he/she wasn't that well versed in Irish history. But the sheer amount of nonsense in this thread is head spinning.

Welcome to After Hours.

odyssey06 · 11-07-2019 9:41pm

sweet_trip wrote: »

I literally said it wasn't an accurate recollection of what I was told, and I was corrected only a post below. Cool your jets lad.

Yep and actually even if its not accurate if it is how things have been remembered it is part of the history ie what is said about Jewish people in Ireland over time is part of the story. As long as it is prefixed as anecdotal.

Tony EH · 11-07-2019 9:43pm

sweet_trip wrote: »

Welcome to After Hours.

I'll keep having to remind myself of that.

Subcomandante Marcos · 11-07-2019 9:47pm

Crock Rock wrote: »

So are the majority of Irish Jews of German or Central European descent who were escaping Hitler's persecution?

No. The majority of the Jewish communities in Ireland predate the Nazi party's rise I. Germay by decades or centuries, and the majority of the remainder came lobe after.

Much like the US and UK, Devs Ireland wasn't keep on taking in too many central European Jewish refugees, unfortunately.

Dev was an outright **** though, so it's hardly surprising.

Subcomandante Marcos · 11-07-2019 9:51pm

I haven't read this thread because I'm sure it's a absolute **** show, but I know members of the families who own Bretzel Bakery and StienTravel, both near the portebello area of Dublin, and have never had anything other than positive experiences with both or their friends and wider communities when attending events.

cameramonkey · 11-07-2019 9:51pm

There was some murders of Jewish men in Dublin in the early 1920s. It was believed that the murders were instigated by Free State army officers. These officers may have carried out the murders and they also colluded in covering up how those involved in the killings had used Beggar's Bush Barracks to escape on the night of one of the murders.

cameramonkey · 11-07-2019 9:54pm

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

I haven't read this thread because I'm sure it's a absolute **** show, but I know members of the families who own Bretzel Bakery and StienTravel, both near the portebello area of Dublin, and have never had anything other than positive experiences with both or their friends and wider communities when attending events.

Bretzel bakery hasn't been owned by Jewish people for I would say 60 years as far as I know.

Subcomandante Marcos · 11-07-2019 9:57pm

cameramonkey wrote: »

Bretzel bakery hasn't been owned by Jewish people for I would say 60 years as far as I know.

I think you'd be surprised.

The family who opened it sold it less than 20 years ago, and the new(er) owners still operate it as a kosher bakery who produce traditional breads of the Jewish community to serve the nearby community.

Hurrache · 11-07-2019 9:58pm

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

Hang on. When has the British left historically been anti Semitic?

Tony EH wrote: »

Apparently the British Labour Party were always anti Semitic, except for the Blair years

Nobody insinuated it was apart from you two.

cameramonkey · 11-07-2019 9:59pm

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

I think you'd be surprised.

The family who opened it and it less than 20 years ago.

Its been around for a lot longer than 20 years. I believe the last time Jewish people owned it was the 1950s, that was what the present owner told me but you could be right and i may be surprised.

Subcomandante Marcos · 11-07-2019 10:01pm

cameramonkey wrote: »

Its been around for a lot longer than 20 years. I believe the last time Jewish people owned it was the 1950s, that was what the present owner told me but you could be right and i may be surprised.

Its been around since the latter half the the 19th century. The current owners bought it less than 20 years ago.

cameramonkey · 11-07-2019 10:04pm

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

Its been around since the latter half the the 19th century. The current owners bought it less than 20 years ago.

Who owned it before him?

Subcomandante Marcos · 11-07-2019 10:07pm

cameramonkey wrote: »

Who owned it before him?

The Elliman's and the Stein's.

cameramonkey · 11-07-2019 10:14pm

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

The Elliman's and the Stein's.

Did the Hackett family not own it?

Thesiger · 11-07-2019 10:14pm

Met an Irish-Israeli guy in the main Irish bar near the beach in Tel Aviv, he said there is a very small community in the greater Tel Aviv area who all loosely know each other and connect around Paddy's Day events and stuff like that. Think he said he was from Terenure originally.

cameramonkey · 11-07-2019 10:16pm

From the below article.

"A chain of Jewish ownership was broken when the bakery's head baker, Christy Hackett, agreed to take it over from Ida Stein in the 1960s for one week and said that if he made a profit he would continue. The bakery remained in the Hackett family for two generations until ill health forced a sale."

https://www.herald.ie/lifestyle/people-are-fussier-now-they-have-less-money-29395471.html

Subcomandante Marcos · 11-07-2019 10:19pm

cameramonkey wrote: »

Did the Hackett family not own it?

Maybe. I know one of their head baker's was a local man called Hackett from stories.
But I also know both the Stein's and Elliman's were proud to tell me it was "their family's" bakery. This was also 15+ years ago after it had been sold to the current owners so maybe they skipped someone.

Spanish Eyes · 11-07-2019 10:21pm

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

The Elliman's and the Stein's.

Manny Stein lived close by us off Clanbrassil Street. Lovely man anyway. His wife was Sylvia and the daughter was/is Freya.

Anyone remember them whether involved with the bakery or not. Often wondered about them after we moved on.

How would you find out. Not being nosy, but curious.

Gimme A Pound · 11-07-2019 10:25pm

In a most Irish development, what landmark in "Jewtown", Cork is named after Mayor Goldberg? Why a pub of course.

https://goldbergs.ie

Subcomandante Marcos · 11-07-2019 10:29pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Manny Stein lived close by us off Clanbrassil Street. Lovely man anyway. His wife was Sylvia and the daughter was/is Freya.

Anyone remember them whether involved with the bakery or not. Often wondered about them after we moved on.

How would you find out. Not being nosy, but curious.

I don't know Manny but I'd have been friendly with Alex back then.
I remember his dad being called Michael, maybe that was Manny?
They ran the travel agents on the corner Camden street and pleasant Street?

Haven't seen any of them in years though, unfortunately

Spanish Eyes · 11-07-2019 10:36pm

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

I don't know Manny but I'd have been friendly with Alex back then.
I remember his dad being called Michael, maybe that was Manny?
They ran the travel agents on the corner Camden street and pleasant Street?

Haven't seen any of them in years though, unfortunately

Ah thanks, I don't think Manny was involved in the Travel Industry (can't remember what the heck he did now!) but he was such a gentleman. Maybe they are related, but Manny and Sylvia had just the one daughter Freya.

Sorry this is bringing a lot of my early years back. Wish I knew then how important it would be to record it. But that's kids for you.

We all played together and there was no distinction made except on Shabbat. That's where us Gentiles made a few bob. Win win!

ILoveYourVibes · 11-07-2019 11:05pm

I know my me.

Strange thread.

Wibbs · 11-07-2019 11:11pm

I grew up off the south circular road in Dublin in the 70's so a fair number of my friends were Jewish. Like SE noted we didn't make any real distinction. I do remember kids conversations about sausages and what, you can't eat them, what the hell?

I also remember being in one mate's house and asking his ma about the fancy candlestick on the sideboard and she telling me about the Menorah and what it was about. I also clearly remember her smiling when I asked about the fancy candlestick.

She also made these very very tasty pastries which I never had before and can't recall the name, but we would devour them.

Ireland's Jewish community

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