omega 3

--LOS-- · 01-04-2012 9:16pm #1

Ok so I've seen this touched on in a few threads but I think not enough to not warrant a new thread

I'm interested in omega 3 specifically since I understand that is the most important one and in general people consume far more omega 6 than 3 which is not good for your health at all. When I started on my path towards vegetarianism I still ate fish for a good while and took fish oil supplements, I've become far more strict vegetarian in the last few years so now omega 3 from fish oil is not an option. To be honest I really miss the benefits of fish oils, I really did notice a big improvement in my overall health when I took them especially my skin and my mental health, improved concentration etc which is important when you're a student. It is also one of the things that would bother my mother about me being vegetarian and she likes to preach to me about taking fish oils :P

I know there are vegetarian/vegan omega supplements available, I've only seen omega 3,6,9 together as far as I can remember, never omega 3 on their own. So correct me here, can you get veggie/vegan omega 3 alone? And how do they compare with the omega 3 you get from fish oils? I've been told that the omega 3 you get from fish oils has far more value and I really don't know what to think of this, I would have thought before that omega 3 is omega 3 no matter the source but am I way wrong here??

Also any veggie/vegan omega supplements I've seen are very very pricey, roughly €22 for 30 days supply so I'd want to know that they are just as good to justify it.

Keela11 · 02-04-2012 12:08am

I always just take a dessert spoon of ground flaxseed with my porridge in the morning. I think it's about 6 or 7 euro for 500g in holland and barret but my mother gets it cheaper in lidl/aldi so I steal it from her

.
I'm sure it's not as strong as fish oil tablets (prob not as strong as veg Omega 3 supplements either) but I never took those and only ever ate fish very rarely so I can't compare but since I started taking it full time in Jan I have noticed an improvement in my concentration.

I've heard chia seeds are also good for Om3, amongst other things, but they seem to be more expensive too.

Tar.Aldarion · 02-04-2012 2:57pm

I think things like flaxseed and nuts etc have a very low conversion rate in the body or something, so you need a lot of them, have the flaxseed stuff here.

The cheapest I can see atm is here: http://www.optimumnutritionists.com/pages/shop/omega-3/dha-epa-from-algae.php
9 months supply for 113e including shipping. I'm not sure if that get's hit by import then...So it wouldn't be too much better than locally. Has to be a better option.

I think boots have a vegetarian multivitamin, not sure how much omega 3 is in it though.

--LOS-- · 02-04-2012 3:07pm

Keela11 wrote: »

I always just take a dessert spoon of ground flaxseed with my porridge in the morning. I think it's about 6 or 7 euro for 500g in holland and barret but my mother gets it cheaper in lidl/aldi so I steal it from her .
I'm sure it's not as strong as fish oil tablets (prob not as strong as veg Omega 3 supplements either) but I never took those and only ever ate fish very rarely so I can't compare but since I started taking it full time in Jan I have noticed an improvement in my concentration.

I've heard chia seeds are also good for Om3, amongst other things, but they seem to be more expensive too.

I guess I know about vegetarian sources of omega 3 in seeds etc but really I'm wondering if they really are a substitute to fish oils. It's aldi that has the cheaper packets of those types of things.

Is there anyone here who would call themselves vegetarian who would still take fish oils?

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

I think things like flaxseed and nuts etc have a very low conversion rate in the body or something, so you need a lot of them, have the flaxseed stuff here.

The cheapest I can see atm is here: http://www.optimumnutritionists.com/pages/shop/omega-3/dha-epa-from-algae.php
9 months supply for 113e including shipping. I'm not sure if that get's hit by import then...So it wouldn't be too much better than locally. Has to be a better option.

I think boots have a vegetarian multivitamin, not sure how much omega 3 is in it though.

.....which is not good, you really don't want to be having a lot of those kinds of things.

I'm also not a big believer in multivitamins, you're often taking stuff that you don't need to (iron for example, not many people are low in iron and it's really not a thing that's good to be taking unless you need it) and certain things need a complimentary component to gain the value of it which is missing in some of those multivitamins. I definitely wouldn't be taking a multivitamin just for the small bit of veggie omega 3 in it.

actua11 · 03-04-2012 1:57am

I take flaxseed capsules which apparently have 936mg of omega 3 per 2 capsules. This compares to around 250-300mg in most of the fish oils that I've checked so even allowing for a poorer conversion rate they stack up reasonably well. At least I've found them to work fine. Having said that I do prefare what was said earlier of working in the ground flaxseed or similar as naturally as possible into the diet, i've just probably still got the habit of taking 'cod liver oil' sticking.

blatantrereg · 03-04-2012 2:07pm

Dont dismiss supplements just because they contain omega 6 oils too. I doubt they would contain enough to matter really. Also, some omage 6 oils might be beneficial, such as gamma-linolenic acid.

There are different types of omega 3 oils - omega 3 is a class of fats, not a specific type (the same is true for omega 9 and omega 6 oils). There are certain ones in fish that aren't available from normal vegetable sources. I dont think they have any more value than the ones available in vegetarian diets per sé - but consuming a mixture of all of them is thought to be more beneficial than omitting the ones you miss by not eating fish - at least in the context of heart health. I dont know if there are any benefits to concentration etc specific to the oils in fish.

Hemp is another good vegetable source of omega 3 oils - and highly nutritious overall.

westkryveggirl · 03-04-2012 3:48pm

There is a DHA/EPA supplement now derived from algal oil that is similar to fish oil, but plant based. I just ordered a bunch from iherb.com. shipping internationally is only 4 euro or something for anything under 4 pounds weight. my understanding is that this is a better source than just flax or walnut or hemp or whatever, because your body wont have to convert it.

I would be really really wary of cheap flax oils like those sold in capsules or aldi or lidl. flax oil goes rancid really quickly, and even moreso when its not refrigerated at all times. Rancid oils will do more harm than good. I even got a refrigerated one from the health shop though that tastes bitter and i suspect is rancid

just be aware of this

blatantrereg · 03-04-2012 4:35pm

westkryveggirl wrote: »

There is a DHA/EPA supplement now derived from algal oil that is similar to fish oil, but plant based. I just ordered a bunch from iherb.com. shipping internationally is only 4 euro or something for anything under 4 pounds weight. my understanding is that this is a better source than just flax or walnut or hemp or whatever, because your body wont have to convert it.

I would be really really wary of cheap flax oils like those sold in capsules or aldi or lidl. flax oil goes rancid really quickly, and even moreso when its not refrigerated at all times. Rancid oils will do more harm than good. I even got a refrigerated one from the health shop though that tastes bitter and i suspect is rancid just be aware of this

The omega 3 oils in fish are there because they eat algae containing it (or smaller fish etc) - so algal oil should be just the same as the fish oil, only a non-animal source. Very good thing to know.

The issue isn't so much bio-availability - the specific fats aren't in normal vegetable sources - eg: DHA

--LOS-- · 03-04-2012 7:27pm

Thanks I might look into that algal oil. I have a packet of ground flaxseed that I resurrected from the press this morning but I think it has been there too long (even though it has a zip lock thing at the top) to still have the same benefit so I'm kinda dubious of it.

Re my comment earlier about vegetarian omega 3 capsules being extremely expensive.....I was in holland and barrett today and saw a pack of 30 capsules by vertese for €5.55, they were omega 3,6,9. Looking at the ingredients though they just contained flaxseed oil, sunflower oil etc etc so I don't think it would be any different that taking flaxseed capsules in that case which are cheaper and come in bigger quantities (holland and barrett had a good bit off them today for anyone interested). I still didn't get them though since it might be better to take it in food in the form of ground flaxseed? I know taking tablets are just easier for some people though.

I think even if I found out you cant quite get the same type of omega 3 as you get in fish it's not going to make me start taking fish oils again, I'd be backtracking a bit there.

blatantrereg · 03-04-2012 7:29pm

I think even if I found out you cant quite get the same type of omega 3 as you get in fish it's not going to make me start taking fish oils again

The algal oil contains the same type of omega 3s as fish oil

--LOS-- · 03-04-2012 7:32pm

blatantrereg wrote: »

The algal oil contains the same type of omega 3s as fish oil

woops sorry I thought you were just speculating.

Tar.Aldarion · 03-04-2012 7:54pm

actua11 wrote: »

I take flaxseed capsules which apparently have 936mg of omega 3 per 2 capsules. This compares to around 250-300mg in most of the fish oils that I've checked so even allowing for a poorer conversion rate they stack up reasonably well. At least I've found them to work fine. Having said that I do prefare what was said earlier of working in the ground flaxseed or similar as naturally as possible into the diet, i've just probably still got the habit of taking 'cod liver oil' sticking.

Hey I was wondering how much these are and where you get them?

I want to look into these vs other types to see if they are good or not.
There's no Omega 3 in flaxseed oil. There's alpha linoleic acid, which does get converted in the body to some extent to EPA (at around 4%) and to DHA (1%). So that sounds like you need a lot compared to fish. I wish to look into it in more detail to understand the math and how much of each you would need.

The same with other things like walnuts, hemp etc. I wonder how good each is.

blatantrereg wrote: »

The omega 3 oils in fish are there because they eat algae containing it (or smaller fish etc) - so algal oil should be just the same as the fish oil, only a non-animal source. Very good thing to know.

The issue isn't so much bio-availability - the specific fats aren't in normal vegetable sources - eg: DHA

I thought the whole point, correct me if I'm wrong, is that fish oils are the best because they have eaten this algae and already converted for us. So basically us eating the algae would need us to do some conversion, or perhaps it works differently in the algae provided, already in the form we need it in. It seems like NASA led to the development of this algae oil, but it wouldn't be the same algae as the fish would eat, they would eat that and convert it in their bodies like we do?

This sounds interesting from your link:

In a study of over 14,000 men and women, vegans with no intake of dietary EPA or DHA still had very high levels of plasma DHA and EPA, showing that conversion of ALA and omega-3 fatty acids is very efficient and much higher than sometimes reported in vegans. Male vegans had only slightly lower levels of DHA than female vegans, and only slightly lower levels than fish-eaters (195 compared to 240). EPA levels were higher in male vegans than in meat-eating and fish-eating males.

Also some reading for people on flaxseed etc:http://www.ascentahealth.com/health-science/science-articles/fish-oil-versus-flax-seed-oil-why-omega-3-fatty-acid-ala-a-poor-subs

Also, the product I linked up above is the algae oil if anybody is interested. Here is a site that sells it in euro but works out slightly dearer. If you get hit with no customs that is. If this second link ships from europe it might be better. I'm not sure how import works on supplements.
http://www.nuique.com/omega3/?gclid=CKjambGSz6ECFQE8lAod-iKtKA

I've now checked out the price on that site better. The delivery charge seems a static 5.20E, so if you ordered a years supply including the 3for2 offer it would come to:

That year assumes you take 2 every day.

blatantrereg · 03-04-2012 8:17pm

There's no Omega 3 in flaxseed oil. There's alpha linoleic acid, which does get converted in the body to some extent to EPA (at around 4%) and to DHA (1%).

ALA is an omega 3. EPA and DHA are other omega 3s, which are particularly beneficial. What you say about conversion rates is consistent what I've read.

I thought the whole point, correct me if I'm wrong, is that fish oils are the best because they have eaten this algae and already converted for us.

Fish dont convert or manufacture DHA or EPA. They get it directly from consuming algae (or other fish that ate algae etc).

Here's a paper about a study showing that algal oil is equivalent to oil in cooked salmon, from the point of view of acquiring DHA.

It's great to see that there's a vegetarian equivalent to fish oil really. It really is particularly useful information.

byhookorbycrook · 03-04-2012 8:20pm

Udo's oil is obtained from plants, mostly organic too.

Tar.Aldarion · 03-04-2012 8:21pm

For vegetarians, would there be much O3 in eggs? DHA etc

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/Egg_Yolk.html

blatantrereg · 03-04-2012 8:29pm

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

For vegetarians, would there be much O3 in eggs? DHA etc

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/Egg_Yolk.html

The quantity and type of omega 3s in eggs depend on what the hens are fed. I know that hens that live off insects produce eggs containing more omega 3s than hens fed corn for example. I dont know what types of omega 3s are typically in such eggs though. You can get eggs in some supermarkets specifically marketed as being high in omega 3s because of an insect diet.

Binging it shows some experiments in circulating eggs high in DHA from hens fed fish oil, with a view to bumping up general consumption of DHA. You might take the view that you might as well just take fish oil directly yourself as to go that route though.

Peanut · 03-04-2012 9:56pm

I've been trying this vegetarian fish-oil replacement for the past few weeks. To be honest, it's difficult to tell if it's making any significant difference to general wellbeing, but I think you would need to try it for a least a month consistently before reaching any conclusion.

About fish oils and vegetarian/vegan diet in general - The general consensus was that people may inefficiently metabolise the more common form of Omega-3 found in flaxseeds/nuts, ALA, into the essential EPA and DHA fats found in fish/algae.

However, I don't think this is as straightforward as it first appears. For a start, conversion rates differ between people. More importantly, it hasn't really been shown that in the (relatively large) meat-eating, non-fish eating population, that a lack of direct sources of fish oils is problematic.

In fact, there was at least one study that showed that vegans/vegetarians actually had more converted Omega-3s compared to the general population, and another recent study which suggested that conversion rates were higher in non-fish eaters, Conversion of dietary ALA to EPA and DHA may be increased in non-fish eaters

On the other hand, there is some evidence that fish oil supplements do seem to help certain individuals, but it doesn't seem clear to me whether this is an effect specific to these individuals or whether supplementation with ALA Omega-3 would produce the same benefits.

Tar.Aldarion · 03-04-2012 10:22pm

blatantrereg wrote: »

The quantity and type of omega 3s in eggs depend on what the hens are fed. I know that hens that live off insects produce eggs containing more omega 3s than hens fed corn for example. I dont know what types of omega 3s are typically in such eggs though. You can get eggs in some supermarkets specifically marketed as being high in omega 3s because of an insect diet.

Binging it shows some experiments in circulating eggs high in DHA from hens fed fish oil, with a view to bumping up general consumption of DHA. You might take the view that you might as well just take fish oil directly yourself as to go that route though.

May as well do that is right, i had heard it was mostly ALA that was fed to them as it was cheaper but I don't know. I wouldn't want any of the specifically fed eggs, I was more wondering on what we might realistically expect from organic/free range eggs in Ireland. Probably hard to know I suppose.

Peanut wrote: »

I've been trying this vegetarian fish-oil replacement for the past few weeks. To be honest, it's difficult to tell if it's making any significant difference to general wellbeing, but I think you would need to try it for a least a month consistently before reaching any conclusion.

About fish oils and vegetarian/vegan diet in general - The general consensus was that people may inefficiently metabolise the more common form of Omega-3 found in flaxseeds/nuts, ALA, into the essential EPA and DHA fats found in fish/algae.

However, I don't think this is as straightforward as it first appears. For a start, conversion rates differ between people. More importantly, it hasn't really been shown that in the (relatively large) meat-eating, non-fish eating population, that a lack of direct sources of fish oils is problematic.

In fact, there was at least one study that showed that vegans/vegetarians actually had more converted Omega-3s compared to the general population, and another recent study which suggested that conversion rates were higher in non-fish eaters, Conversion of dietary ALA to EPA and DHA may be increased in non-fish eaters

On the other hand, there is some evidence that fish oil supplements do seem to help certain individuals, but it doesn't seem clear to me whether this is an effect specific to these individuals or whether supplementation with ALA Omega-3 would produce the same benefits.

Hey Peanut, thanks for that. I am wondering about the 2 types of veggie supplement on this thread now.

The one I have posted is:
EPA – Eicosapentaenoic - 10mg
DHA – Docosahexaenoic – 400mg
148 euro per annum

The one you posted is:
EPA – Eicosapentaenoic - 200mg
DHA – Docosahexaenoic – 400mg
260 euro per annum.

Seems to be a lot less EPA in the one posted by me, but it also works out much cheaper as it's 3 for 2. Not sure which to go for, I wonder what kind of amounts of each you should really be getting, as in, would that 10mg be enough?

I certainly hope so as that is much cheaper and I am considering ordering supplements.

I also don't understand, like you say, how in some studies of thousands of vegetarians/vegans, they actually appear to have more of these chemicals in them than people who actually eat fish, yet they have no dietary intake of it at all, or at least it is very minimal.

In a study of over 14,000 men and women, vegans with no intake of dietary EPA or DHA still had very high levels of plasma DHA and EPA, showing that conversion of ALA and omega-3 fatty acids is very efficient and much higher than sometimes reported in vegans. Male vegans had only slightly lower levels of DHA than female vegans, and only slightly lower levels than fish-eaters (195 compared to 240). EPA levels were higher in male vegans than in meat-eating and fish-eating males.

Peanut · 03-04-2012 10:46pm

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Hey Peanut, thanks for that. I am wondering about the 2 types of veggie supplement on this thread now.

The one I have posted is:
EPA – Eicosapentaenoic - 10mg
DHA – Docosahexaenoic – 400mg
148 euro per annum

The one you posted is:
EPA – Eicosapentaenoic - 200mg
DHA – Docosahexaenoic – 400mg
260 euro per annum.

Seems to be a lot less EPA in the one posted by me, but it also works out much cheaper as it's 3 for 2. Not sure which to go for, I wonder what kind of amounts of each you should really be getting, as in, would that 10mg be enough?

Yeah, I noticed that too. 10mg seems very low. Actually I forgot to mention that the one I ordered also has a 3 for 2 offer if you go direct to their web store:

http://www.opti3omega.com/shop/europe.html

.. which works out as €171.63 for a year inc. postage

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

I also don't understand, like you say, how in some studies of thousands of vegetarians/vegans, they actually appear to have more of these chemicals in them than people who actually eat fish, yet they have no dietary intake of it at all, or at least it is very minimal.

Yep it sounds counter-intuitive, but I think it's simply a really nice example of the body adapting to conditions, boosting the ALA conversion rate when needed and reducing it as necessary in order to maintain a consistent level.

Still I don't think it's any harm trying the supplements to see if they work for you. I don't feel especially unhealthy lol but I like trying new things

I also think it's great that they actually went ahead and are able to produce this too.

--LOS-- · 03-04-2012 11:13pm

Peanut wrote: »

About fish oils and vegetarian/vegan diet in general - The general consensus was that people may inefficiently metabolise the more common form of Omega-3 found in flaxseeds/nuts, ALA, into the essential EPA and DHA fats found in fish/algae.

From what I now understand after having researched this a bit more, plant sources contain only ALA which may be converted to ELA/DHA through consumption but so poorly that the amount of ELA/DHA obtained through this method is negligible, so taking flaxseed etc is pointless as a substitute to fish oils which contain hardly any ALA.

Marine sources like ones derived from algae are really the only veggie/vegan alternative worth considering.

Mainly DHA is associated with brain function, increased serotonin levels in the brain, cognitive function, decrease in depression etc. And I really do believe this since I noticed the difference when I consumed oily fish and fish oil supplements.

I'm still not sure about the preferred ratio of ELA to DHA though but taking them in combination seems to be important.

Peanut wrote: »

However, I don't think this is as straightforward as it first appears. For a start, conversion rates differ between people. More importantly, it hasn't really been shown that in the (relatively large) meat-eating, non-fish eating population, that a lack of direct sources of fish oils is problematic.

You see I wouldn't really think of the lack of it as being problematic, it's not something that you would really notice. You produce less DHA in your brain as you get older so it can be beneficial to supplement it to make up for this and prevent dementia, alzheimers etc and to maintain good brain function. It would be very hard to show that not taking it makes you more susceptible to these kinds of things and its other associations above, I think you really have to have some experience with it yourself.

Peanut wrote: »

In fact, there was at least one study that showed that vegans/vegetarians actually had more converted Omega-3s compared to the general population, and another recent study which suggested that conversion rates were higher in non-fish eaters, Conversion of dietary ALA to EPA and DHA may be increased in non-fish eaters

Really not sure what to make of those studies, ofc not everyone is lacking in it too so it's hard to dissect those kinds of studies, personally I know fish oils helped me so I'm looking for a substitute to that so ELA/DHA not ALA.

Peanut wrote: »

On the other hand, there is some evidence that fish oil supplements do seem to help certain individuals, but it doesn't seem clear to me whether this is an effect specific to these individuals or whether supplementation with ALA Omega-3 would produce the same benefits.

Maybe us veggies do up our conversion rate but otherwise I would say no it wouldn't produce the same benefit.

Peanut · 03-04-2012 11:21pm

--LOS-- wrote: »

You see I wouldn't really think of the lack of it as being problematic, it's not something that you would really notice. You produce less DHA in your brain as you get older so it can be beneficial to supplement it to make up for this and prevent dementia, alzheimers etc and to maintain good brain function. It would be very hard to show that not taking it makes you more susceptible to these kinds of things and its other associations above, I think you really have to have some experience with it yourself.

Yes I agree, there are a lot of variables and that's really why I wanted to try it myself. Plus working a lot online means that trying to concentrate is important to me and anything that helps that is useful, then again, reading boards doesn't exactly help here either

--LOS-- · 03-04-2012 11:29pm

Peanut wrote: »

Yes I agree, there are a lot of variables and that's really why I wanted to try it myself. Plus working a lot online means that trying to concentrate is important to me and anything that helps that is useful, then again, reading boards doesn't exactly help here either

Tbh I'm really sick of hearing how you really need to be taking fish oils and I'm happy knowing now that there's probably no truth in that.

Peanut · 03-04-2012 11:33pm

--LOS-- wrote: »

Tbh I'm really sick of hearing how you really need to be taking fish oils and I'm happy knowing now that there's probably no truth in that.

Don't forget B12!! (if you're vegan.. not that being vegetarian will convince a committed carnivore)

I don't go out of my way to argue the veg. viewpoint with meat-eaters but yeah...

Tar.Aldarion · 14-04-2012 12:19am

Peanut wrote: »

I've been trying this vegetarian fish-oil replacement for the past few weeks. To be honest, it's difficult to tell if it's making any significant difference to general wellbeing, but I think you would need to try it for a least a month consistently before reaching any conclusion.

About fish oils and vegetarian/vegan diet in general - The general consensus was that people may inefficiently metabolise the more common form of Omega-3 found in flaxseeds/nuts, ALA, into the essential EPA and DHA fats found in fish/algae.

However, I don't think this is as straightforward as it first appears. For a start, conversion rates differ between people. More importantly, it hasn't really been shown that in the (relatively large) meat-eating, non-fish eating population, that a lack of direct sources of fish oils is problematic.

In fact, there was at least one study that showed that vegans/vegetarians actually had more converted Omega-3s compared to the general population, and another recent study which suggested that conversion rates were higher in non-fish eaters, Conversion of dietary ALA to EPA and DHA may be increased in non-fish eaters

On the other hand, there is some evidence that fish oil supplements do seem to help certain individuals, but it doesn't seem clear to me whether this is an effect specific to these individuals or whether supplementation with ALA Omega-3 would produce the same benefits.

I see there is a new version of this capsule, it also contains vegan D3 now. Still 3for2 on the site.

paky · 22-04-2012 6:28pm

whatabout evening primrose oil? doesn't it have omegas in it?

blatantrereg · 22-04-2012 6:46pm

paky wrote: »

whatabout evening primrose oil? doesn't it have omegas in it?

I think all fats are omegas - it's a naming system based on "their likely biosynthetic properties in animals". The different classifications are indicated by the number.

Evening primrose oil contains a specific omega 6 that is thought to be an anticarcinogen apparently. It doesn't contain the fatty acids being discussed here though.

actua11 · 24-04-2012 8:49pm

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Hey I was wondering how much these are and where you get them?

I get them from Holland and Barret, can be pricey (€7.39 for 60 capsules) but works out o.k when they're available one two for offer. The stats I gave earlier were for the gelatine capsuled version, the figures for the veggy version are a little different.

link - http://www.hollandandbarrett.ie/pages/product_detail.asp?pid=720&prodid=768&cid=20&sid=0

omega 3

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