Vegan and Health

--LOS-- · 26-05-2014 5:21pm #1

I came across this video on youtube, "Why I'm Not VEGAN with Alexandra Jamieson". Firstly I think the title comes off quite negative, when she is trying to portray the opposite attitude in the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-BM4dm4rX8

So to summarise, this woman had been vegan for about 10 years, although in reality she was just following a plant-based diet or a vegan diet. But she is now a self-proclaimed ex-vegan. Her reasons for this? She felt her body was out of whack, she tried different plant-based ways to rectify that but ultimately she found eating meat again had the best affect on her body.

I'm not against this woman, I do feel she is and was misusing the term 'vegan' to describe a diet, I do take issue with that. I do not take issue with her just following a vegan diet or describing it as a vegan diet, she does it purely for her own health, but I appreciate the non-selfish implications that has on animals.

I just often come across stories like this and it's confusing and I don't personally understand it. I'm just trying to understand what she or others think is unique about meat that this is their only solution? My own feelings are that meat is not magic, there is literally nothing in meat that you can't get from a plant-based source. There is no vitamin, nutrient or mineral that the human body needs that is only in meat. I mean that is not even debatable as far as I'm concerned. There's a complete list of all the vitamins, nutrients and minerals you need under "Vitamins, Minerals and other Nutrients" here.

But this woman has been eating vegan for such a long time and she seems to not have taken the decision to go back to meat lightly, so I'm confused. What could it possibly be about meat that her body is responding to? Maybe she's wrongly associating the physical satisfaction from meat with it's nutritional value. Maybe instead she feels better eating meat because of unimportant properties like the physical texture or the chewiness, or indeed some emotional connection with it. I don't know, I've yet to be convinced there is something vitamin/mineral/nutrient wise in meat that is unique. I think possibly since she was just vegan for her health, that she doesn't have that same concern for animals that others have, so eating meat could understandably feel good to her, or at least not bad. Health is physical and mental, so maybe she's mistaking them a bit. If you improve your mental health you can improve your physical health, and vice versa. So eating something that made her feel good could also have a physical impact, in a good way. Idk. I can't deny that whatever she's doing is working for her, and you shouldn't do something if it's not working for you, but I can't help think there's another reason.

Zombienosh · 26-05-2014 6:10pm

I'm always amazed when I come across x-vegan ex-veggies who seem to jump back to eating meat so easily, forgetting about why they opted into a vegan lifestyle to begin with.

--LOS-- · 26-05-2014 6:30pm

Zombienosh wrote: »

I'm always amazed when I come across x-vegan ex-veggies who seem to jump back to eating meat so easily, forgetting about why they opted into a vegan lifestyle to begin with.

I don't understand it either but I can understand that if they're only doing it for health reasons, then it's easier to go back.

I do feel though that they're discrediting the health values of veganism ironically. This woman has 3 health books on following a vegan diet and while she's not saying being vegan isn't healthy, she thinks different things work for different people. That's fine but please then don't make such negatively titled videos and internet posts (I've seen the same on her own website) saying "why I'm not vegan". That can only have negative connotations and I don't believe for a second she's not aware of that. I just feel like it's spreading negativity about a vegan diet, when it has scientifically been shown to be healthier, to prevent diseases and to reverse diseases.

Zombienosh · 26-05-2014 7:09pm

I know of a few people who use vegan diets exclusively for weightloss and health, which i also find a bit strange.

DonnieScribbles · 26-05-2014 11:26pm

--LOS-- wrote: »

My own feelings are that meat is not magic, there is literally nothing in meat that you can't get from a plant-based source. There is no vitamin, nutrient or mineral that the human body needs that is only in meat. I mean that is not even debatable as far as I'm concerned.

I'm open to correction, but B12 is not available in any properly useful form through plant sources. Was vegan for three years myself and I supplemented it. Pretty sure that's the only nutrient lacking though.

As for why she gave up - well she gives her reasons in the video. Different people can have varying responses to different foods, be they metabolic, genetic, or due to intolerances or whatever. It would be difficult to be vegan if you were a coeliac, for example. Doable, but difficult.

She gave it up for health reasons, but health reasons that were specific to her.

It's pretty ridiculous that people got angry at her for giving up being vegan when she had perfectly valid reasons for doing so. It's a bit depressing that people would act like that. But such is life.

DonnieScribbles · 26-05-2014 11:28pm

Zombienosh wrote: »

I know of a few people who use vegan diets exclusively for weightloss and health, which i also find a bit strange.

While I wouldn't see a problem with that at all. Surely it's up to the individual what reasons they have for doing something/ eating something? I mean, who are we to judge?

--LOS-- · 26-05-2014 11:48pm

DonnieScribbles wrote: »

I'm open to correction, but B12 is not available in any properly useful form through plant sources. Was vegan for three years myself and I supplemented it. Pretty sure that's the only nutrient lacking though.

As for why she gave up - well she gives her reasons in the video. Different people can have varying responses to different foods, be they metabolic, genetic, or due to intolerances or whatever. It would be difficult to be vegan if you were a coeliac, for example. Doable, but difficult.

She gave it up for health reasons, but health reasons that were specific to her.

It's pretty ridiculous that people got angry at her for giving up being vegan when she had perfectly valid reasons for doing so. It's a bit depressing that people would act like that. But such is life.

ye well I just mean it's not impossible to get B12 from a vegan diet without supplementing. Just because of the way most people live, it's not possible for them, because they're not eating enough organic veg that still have the soil on. But you can get it if you eat veg like that as well as eating products that are already supplemented with it like soy milk, nutritional yeast etc. Well that's no different than taking a supplement in some ways. Like people love to take issue with me because I take a vegan B12 supplement, but I think that's a very out-dated way of thinking, it's 2014, we don't have to kill animals to get B12 in supplement form or not. How is a supplement any worse than any other form that food takes. I know Gary Yourofsky is quite anti-supplements and he doesn't use any, his B12 levels are always fine when checked. That's fine but I'm just a little more realistic about where I'm living and I haven't had my B12 levels checked yet so I would at least not like to take the chance until I do.

I do think it's appalling all the backlash she received, she didn't deserve that. Her contact form is now down on her site and I'm guessing that's no coincidence. She clearly didn't make the decision on a whim. But I'm just curious as to what it is about meat that's helping her. Like when you talk about metabolic or genetic or an intolerance etc, what is the actual physical component of meat that is then associated with the metabolic effect or the intolerance or the genetic effect. Because there is nothing unique about meat so this doesn't make sense to me? I think she made the right choice for herself, she shouldn't having to be suffering doing something that is bad for her. But my fear is that lots of others don't give as much thought as her.

And there are tons of vegan that eat gluten free as well. Whenever I'm searching for recipes I'm always accidentally coming across gluten free vegan blogs. I'm guessing it's a lot more inconvenient all right.

Also I do think she has herself to blame a little bit for the backlash, since she called herself vegan for 10 years. That a was her first mistake, if she didn't call herself vegan, nobody would care about her diet change.

DonnieScribbles · 27-05-2014 12:05am

Ha, was going to say I hadn't heard of the organic veg thing, then I googled it and was reminded of reading about those Iranian villagers and their 'night soil' vegetables! I don't know, if I was growing my own veg I'd be washing any dirt off. Wouldn't that be a bit unpleasant to eat? Interesting article here: http://www.veganhealth.org/b12/plant The conclusion pretty much states its not possible to get it effectively from plant sources. You're right though, there's nothing wrong with supplementing.

Well it might not be the meat, but something in the vegan food that she is replacing it with. Like if someone had an unknown intolerance to something in say, lentils, and then decided to eat meat instead of lentils they'd probably feel awesome and stick with that. I'm no dietician so I don't really know.

I suppose if for a large chunk of your life you're emphatically pro-vegan and writing books and stuff it probably seems hypocritical to give it up but it is certainly not worthy of the backlash she mentions in the video.

--LOS-- · 27-05-2014 12:15am

DonnieScribbles wrote: »

Ha, was going to say I hadn't heard of the organic veg thing, then I googled it and was reminded of reading about those Iranian villagers and their 'night soil' vegetables! I don't know, if I was growing my own veg I'd be washing any dirt off. Wouldn't that be a bit unpleasant to eat? Interesting article here: http://www.veganhealth.org/b12/plant The conclusion pretty much states its not possible to get it effectively from plant sources. You're right though, there's nothing wrong with supplementing.

Well it might not be the meat, but something in the vegan food that she is replacing it with. Like if someone had an unknown intolerance to something in say, lentils, and then decided to eat meat instead of lentils they'd probably feel awesome and stick with that. I'm no dietician so I don't really know.

I suppose if for a large chunk of your life you're emphatically pro-vegan and writing books and stuff it probably seems hypocritical to give it up but it is certainly not worthy of the backlash she mentions in the video.

Oh right ye I get ye, that would probably be pretty hard to figure out too. Oh well I just hope I don't have any problems down the line. I did have bells palsy recently and I attributed that to a B12 deficiency, when I started supplementing and eating well, it was like an immediate improvement. I don't think it's gross to eat soil no, I never really wash things, rinsing something off is not going to kill any bacteria, people don't think milk is gross and that's full of pus and blood. I don't know, I'm from the country so dirt is my friend, my nana always said it good for me anyway :P I don't wash mushrooms or anything and they nearly always have soil on them.

DonnieScribbles · 27-05-2014 12:23am

Oh, sounds unpleasant, glad you got that sorted out!

Haha, I'm from the country myself but can be a bit obsessively clean with some things. It's probably just habit at this stage, like it'd feel weird if I didn't rinse my veg! And there's pesticides and stuff too to consider with supermarket veg...

It's a minefield!

--LOS-- · 27-05-2014 12:29am

DonnieScribbles wrote: »

Oh, sounds unpleasant, glad you got that sorted out!

Haha, I'm from the country myself but can be a bit obsessively clean with some things. It's probably just habit at this stage, like it'd feel weird if I didn't rinse my veg! And there's pesticides and stuff too to consider with supermarket veg...

It's a minefield!

I know but pesticides and stuff like that don't wash off, you're going to be eating those regardless.

Ah I know lots of people would think it was weird. I had a vegetarian friend here that I used to take turns cooking with, I'd have to wash my veg in front of her all right and pretend like I always do that, coz she was very almost obsessive about that. So if someone is round my house I will wash the veg if I know they want that. It's just something I've never done myself.

Amalgam · 27-05-2014 9:21am

Zombienosh wrote: »

I know of a few people who use vegan diets exclusively for weightloss and health, which i also find a bit strange.

I am one of those people. I started because of that, but also.. I remember having a bit of an, 'epiphany moment', when viewing a BBC item on a company boasting about a gel they had developed, to pump up various meat products, with waste meat products. The main jist of the new gel was that it was, 'undetectable'.. I said to myself, there is a moral void there.. I would not have a problem never eating meat again.

You learn as you go along, sandpaper knee joints and hair loss were the result of starting off with a rather severely restricted regimen, basically just green leaf intake. I've nudged myself towards a more nutritious path, over the months.

Tar.Aldarion · 27-05-2014 11:11am

Problem with B12 in our society from plant sources is that it would be totally unpredictable. Another thing to factor in as you get older is that it gets harder to absorb B12, so it is recommended to start taking supplements for everybody. They are better than eating animal products in that case, which often leaves people deficient.

--LOS-- · 27-05-2014 2:41pm

oh and the point is you should eat soil covered organic veg so they're not sprayed with pesticides anyhoo

Amalgam wrote: »

I am one of those people. I started because of that, but also.. I remember having a bit of an, 'epiphany moment', when viewing a BBC item on a company boasting about a gel they had developed, to pump up various meat products, with waste meat products. The main jist of the new gel was that it was, 'undetectable'.. I said to myself, there is a moral void there.. I would not have a problem never eating meat again.

You learn as you go along, sandpaper knee joints and hair loss were the result of starting off with a rather severely restricted regimen, basically just green leaf intake. I've nudged myself towards a more nutritious path, over the months.

I started on the path to veganism because of health but I'm not vegan because of health. I don't see how you can be vegan just because of health, because you wouldn't really have the same interest in avoiding all the barely traceable animal-derived ingredients, like the issue with islinglass and beer for example. And you don't need to avoid animal clothing for health and making environmental changes is not really affecting your personal health. So it's then just a diet thing, which veganism is not.

Amalgam · 27-05-2014 6:28pm

Oh, I accept that, but my frame of mind was fluid over various umm.. aspects of what I was mulling over. Things haven't settled, do they ever?

I'm happy with where I'm at.

Just Like Heaven · 27-05-2014 6:44pm

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Problem with B12 in our society from plant sources is that it would be totally unpredictable. Another thing to factor in as you get older is that it gets harder to absorb B12, so it is recommended to start taking supplements for everybody. They are better than eating animal products in that case, which often leaves people deficient.

Yeah I have to admit, taking a b12 for the rest of my life was at first daunting because it makes you feel like your diet is unnatural due to it lacking something so important, but hearing that so many meat eaters suffer from it too helps

--LOS-- · 27-05-2014 10:39pm

Amalgam wrote: »

Oh, I accept that, but my frame of mind was fluid over various umm.. aspects of what I was mulling over. Things haven't settled, do they ever?

I'm happy with where I'm at.

That's fine, I personally am happy for anyone to be doing anything, doesn't matter if they're veggie or vegan. I just would like for people to not misuse the terms though, I've written that into the charter coz that's only confusing. The media is bad enough for that.

Vegan and Health

Comments