Ireland RWC Backline

Buer · 26-07-2015 7:29pm

Jones is in the squad because he does all the little things and does them well. He's very much a player than be a cog in a system and fit in when called upon. Doesn't have many eye catching moments but he's very much a team player which always appears to be what Schmidt values.

There's no specific facet of his game that excels or has him in the squad, similar to Trimble. He's just a really solid performer with a low error count.

AbusesToilets · 26-07-2015 7:30pm

Wang King wrote: »

Jones tackles better than anyone in the back 3, to even suggest Fitz even comes close is laughable, good luck with the love in

And you were talking about reality? Fitz is good enough to be one of the best centres playing in the country. A huge part of that is down to his defensive abilities. After BOD and D'Arcy, he is probably the best tackling and jackling back around.

jm08 · 26-07-2015 7:32pm

AbusesToilets wrote: »

I can't see the logic in taking Jones ahead of Earls, Fitz, Zebo, Trimble, Reid or Gilroy. They are all better players than him and are more capable of covering multiple positions off of the bench.

I hope that Joe a gives some countenance to mixing up the back line. Payne at FB and one of Fitz or Earls in the centre with Henshaw would be a worthwhile experiment.

They all have their negatives:
Earls - size
Fitz - lack of try scoring ability, made of glass
Zebo - everything

Trimble - poor kicking game, not great under high ball
Reid - looks promising but is inexperienced
Gilroy - defence

Buer · 26-07-2015 7:33pm

Wang King wrote: »

Jones tackles better than anyone in the back 3, to even suggest Fitz even comes close is laughable, good luck with the love in

I know you've a bit of a crush on Jones but Fitz is a superb tackler. Always has been. That doesn't mean Jones isn't excellent too.

It's pretty far fetched to say it's laughable that Fitzgerald "even comes close" to Jones in defence. Many people would have Fitzgerald ahead; it's probably the strongest aspect of his game.

jm08 · 26-07-2015 7:35pm

AbusesToilets wrote: »

And you were talking about reality? Fitz is good enough to be one of the best centres playing in the country. A huge part of that is down to his defensive abilities. After BOD and D'Arcy, he is probably the best tackling and jackling back around.

Yet, Joe Schmidt sees him as a winger, not a centre. Payne & Henshaw are good defensively, but lack attacking ability. An attacking centre is what is needed, not another backrower in the centre.

Wang King · 26-07-2015 7:37pm

AbusesToilets wrote: »

And you were talking about reality? Fitz is good enough to be one of the best centres playing in the country. A huge part of that is down to his defensive abilities. After BOD and D'Arcy, he is probably the best tackling and jackling back around.

I read this post... And no....still wondering

AbusesToilets · 26-07-2015 7:37pm

Are you trying to say that Fitz ( or Earls for that matter) aren't attacking centres? From your history, I know you champion Earls in much the same way that I do Fitz. I would like to see someone else given a shot with Henshaw.

AbusesToilets · 26-07-2015 7:38pm

Wang King wrote: »

I read this post... And no....still wondering

Well, good for you so. No point in continuing the discussion obviously.

Wang King · 26-07-2015 7:40pm

Buer wrote: »

I know you've a bit of a crush on Jones but Fitz is a superb tackler. Always has been. That doesn't mean Jones isn't excellent too.

It's pretty far fetched to say it's laughable that Fitzgerald "even comes close" to Jones in defence. Many people would have Fitzgerald ahead; it's probably the strongest aspect of his game.

If tackling is the strongest aspect of Fitz's game, he's in trouble.
One on one, there is no better tackle in the Irish back 3 options that Jones.
He has his limitations, of course, but anyone who has ever seen him tackle knows he is superb at it, Fitz offers mountains more as an attacking option, but nope, not defensively, not even close

Wang King · 26-07-2015 7:42pm

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Well, good for you so. No point in continuing the discussion obviously.

When i read something that makes sense, maybe, until then, I'll just say no thank you

26-07-2015 7:42pm

.ak wrote: »

I'm hoping Payne steps it up a notch. Whilst he's done no wrong he's still the weak link in our back line actually opening up sides. We miss the maestro so much in that regards, and whilst it's nice having a back line full of 15st flankerish backs we haven't looked like moving the ball in a way that'll turn sides inside out? Is it beyond us? Absolutely not. Joe is one of the best back coaches in the business, the stuff Leinster were pulling off in their pomp wasn't flukes, his playbook is exciting, but you need 100% accuracy, confidence and commitment to pull it off.

I'm hoping with a good 6n under his belt that Payne will look to create a bit more and the playbook will be used a bit more liberally.

I know you're not having a dig at him but I don't think this post is very fair. We didn't play very creatively in the 6N, nobody did really, so I'm not sure singling out Payne is entirely right. Henshaw had a very strong, all-action tournament but I don't think bringing Payne into the game was something he did especially well. I was really impressed by Payne overall, I'm not going to go looking for the stats (so hopefully you'll take my word for it) but he made a deceptive amount of ground in the tournament with ball in hand and he controlled his channel in defence so well. Tbh if we're looking to dish out "blame" for lack of a better word, it should be pointed at the coaching team. We've two halfbacks who kick the ball incredibly well so we went with it.

Podge_irl · 26-07-2015 7:43pm

I genuinely have no idea what you've been watching WK. I would rate fitz's defense as the best part of his game and he's easily the best back 3 tackler I've seen at Leinster for some time. He's textbook.

Wang King · 26-07-2015 7:50pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

I genuinely have no idea what you've been watching WK. I would rate fitz's defense as the best part of his game and he's easily the best back 3 tackler I've seen at Leinster for some time. He's textbook.

Right, lets make it easy for us.
Why did Schmidt pick Felix for the squad, and bring him into the team when he felt it was needed?
Some sense of misplaced loyalty? He liked the way he ran perhaps?.
Any of those? Something else maybe?
One on one, imo! we have nobody in the back 3 better defending our line , or in a one on one try scoring situation.
Now Joe may not think the same as me, but he picks him

Buer · 26-07-2015 7:51pm

Wang King wrote: »

If tackling is the strongest aspect if Fitz's game, he's in trouble

I'm not sure if you think he's just a poor defender in that case?

I would genuinely say his defence is best asset. People would be hard pushed to remember any significant errors off the top of their head. They notice the jinking footwork but his tackling and positioning is top class.

He won MOTM in the do or die ECC game at Wasps this season based purely on his defence when he was shutting down anything that moved and making multiple good defensive reads; that is far from out of the ordinary.

Wang King · 26-07-2015 7:54pm

Buer wrote: »

I'm not sure if you think he's just a poor defender in that case?

I would genuinely say his defence is best asset. People would be hard pushed to remember any significant errors off the top of their head. They notice the jinking footwork but his tackling and positioning is top class.

He won MOTM in the do or die ECC game at Wasps this season based purely on his defence when he was shutting down anything that moved and making multiple good defensive reads; that is far from out of the ordinary.

I don't think his defending is poor, all I'm saying, and I stick by it, is Jones is our best tackler bar none in all of our back 3 options.
Joe has complete confidence in bringing him into a game at a point when defense is paramount, and that's a much better affirmation than I can ever give him

Buer · 26-07-2015 7:55pm

Wang King wrote: »

Right, lets make it easy for us.
Why did Schmidt pick Felix for the squad, and bring him into the team when he felt it was needed?
Some sense of misplaced loyalty? He liked the way he ran perhaps?.
Any of those? Something else maybe?
One on one, imo! we have nobody in the back 3 better defending our line , or in a one on one try scoring situation.
Now Joe may not think the same as me, but he picks him

No coach picks any player for a single aspect of their game much less such an isolated item as one on one tackling where there might not be a single one for the player to make in 80 minutes.

Jones is picked because he's a very solid performer, does all the little things well and plays intelligently.

Podge_irl · 26-07-2015 7:55pm

Wang King wrote: »

Right, lets make it easy for us.
Why did Schmidt pick Felix for the squad, and bring him into the team when he felt it was needed?
Some sense of misplaced loyalty? He liked the way he ran perhaps?.
Any of those? Something else maybe?
One on one, imo! we have nobody in the back 3 better defending our line , or in a one on one try scoring situation.
Now Joe may not think the same as me, but he picks him

I never mentioned Jones there. The only time I have mentioned him in this thread is to say he is 100% going.

I don't even have an issue with you claiming jones is better defensively. I honestly haven't seen enough of him to know. But you have been incredibly dismissive of the notion that Fitz is in anyway good defensively and that simply doesn't fit with reality.

Fitz doesn't play full back so he doesn't come one on one with players as often. He was absolutely supreme defending from centre in the season gone and his tackling head on is almost flawless. Whether jones would be better one on one I don't know but you're being weirdly and stupidly dismissive of Fitzgerald and I don't understand it.

26-07-2015 7:57pm

Wang King wrote: »

I don't think his defending is poor, all I'm saying, and I stick by it, is Jones is our best tackler bar none in all of our back 3 options.
Joe has complete confidence in bringing him into a game at a point when defense is paramount, and that's a much better affirmation than I can ever give him

So let me get this straight - the fact Jones doesn't start but sometimes comes on towards the end of games (he was unused in 3 of the 6N games) is meant to demonstrate he's a better defender than the guys that actually do start...?

Podge_irl · 26-07-2015 7:58pm

Wang King wrote: »

I don't think his defending is poor

Wang King wrote: »

If tackling is the strongest aspect of Fitz's game, he's in trouble.

Doesn't exactly read that way

Wang King · 26-07-2015 8:01pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

Doesn't exactly read that way

Does anyone think Fitz is picked on the wing because of his defensive ability? Was that why he was picked against Scotland, to stem the flow of the attacking threat they carried?

Podge_irl · 26-07-2015 8:03pm

Wang King wrote: »

Does anyone think Fitz is picked on the wing because of his defensive ability? Was that why he was picked against Scotland, to stem the flow of the attacking threat they carried?

I imagine it helped yes. Your comment was flippant though, and whatever way you meant it it implies that you consider his defense not just not on par with jones but actively bad.

Wang King · 26-07-2015 8:04pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

I never mentioned Jones there. The only time I have mentioned him in this thread is to say he is 100% going.

I don't even have an issue with you claiming jones is better defensively. I honestly haven't seen enough of him to know. But you have been incredibly dismissive of the notion that Fitz is in anyway good defensively and that simply doesn't fit with reality.

Fitz doesn't play full back so he doesn't come one on one with players as often. He was absolutely supreme defending from centre in the season gone and his tackling head on is almost flawless. Whether jones would be better one on one I don't know but you're being weirdly and stupidly dismissive of Fitzgerald and I don't understand it.

When you start calling people stupid you've lost what little credibility the post may have had, good luck

irishbucsfan · 26-07-2015 8:05pm

Wang King wrote: »

Does anyone think Fitz is picked on the wing because of his defensive ability? Was that why he was picked against Scotland, to stem the flow of the attacking threat they carried?

This is a silly question really. He might be the best defensive winger in the world but still selected against Scotland for attacking reasons, it wouldn't mean anything about his defensive ability one way or another.

Wang King · 26-07-2015 8:05pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

I imagine it helped yes. Your comment was flippant though, and whatever way you meant it it implies that you consider his defense not just not on par with jones but actively bad.

His defense is not on a par with Jones imo, its not even close, but I also said that Fitz is acres ahead of Jones in attacking ability... But that doesn't suit your narrative

jm08 · 26-07-2015 8:20pm

Buer wrote: »

I'm not sure if you think he's just a poor defender in that case?

I would genuinely say his defence is best asset. People would be hard pushed to remember any significant errors off the top of their head. They notice the jinking footwork but his tackling and positioning is top class.

He won MOTM in the do or die ECC game at Wasps this season based purely on his defence when he was shutting down anything that moved and making multiple good defensive reads; that is far from out of the ordinary.

Whats his defence like as a fullback though? Comparing him to Felix Jones's defence is not comparing like with like.

Felix learned his tackling technique from Doug Howlett. He launches himself like a torpedo. Great tackle here:
http://gfycat.com/ScientificEveryIcelandicsheepdog

What isn't mentioned either is that he is very pacy.

sydthebeat · 26-07-2015 8:23pm

Wang King wrote: »

His defense is not on a par with Jones imo, its not even close,

Ah but they are though.

Tackling and defense would be a strong factor of both their games, in their preferred positions.

To claim they are "not even close" would be to suggest that fitz isnt a strong tackler, which isn't correct.

Anyway, it's a silly argument.

Roll on the Scots game

Wang King · 26-07-2015 8:29pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

Ah but they are though.

Tackling and defense would be a strong factor of both their games, in their preferred positions.

To claim they are "not even close" would be to suggest that fitz isnt a strong tackler, which isn't correct.

Anyway, it's a silly argument.

Roll on the Scots game

I didn't suggest Fitz isn't a strong tackler, you drew that inference all on your own
Imagine if I said Jones was our strongest threat going forward... My post would be as delusional as some others I've read on boards

Tox56 · 26-07-2015 8:31pm

jm08 wrote: »

Whats his defence like as a fullback though? Comparing him to Felix Jones's defence is not comparing like with like..

Yes, if anything Fitz frequently defends in the 13 channel, the hardest area of the pitch to defend, and does it superbly. Someone said earlier hes the best back 3 defender in Leinster for some time, and Id be tempted to extend that to the whole backline, hes outstanding. Defence is not just about "launching yourself like a torpedo"

sydthebeat · 26-07-2015 8:31pm

Wang King wrote: »

I didn't suggest Fitz isn't a strong tackler, you drew that inference all on your own

But then by your argument, if fitz is a strong tackler but "not even close" to Jones. .... that makes Jones some how a super human tackler?.... or what adjective do you use to describe something so far beyond strong as to be not even close to it?

jm08 · 26-07-2015 8:36pm

Tox56 wrote: »

Yes, if anything Fitz frequently defends in the 13 channel, the hardest area of the pitch to defend, and does it superbly. Someone said earlier hes the best back 3 defender in Leinster for some time, and Id be tempted to extend that to the whole backline, hes outstanding. Defence is not just about "launching yourself like a torpedo"

Munster had the 2nd best defence in the league last season (conceeding 31 tries, one behind Ospreys). Leinster conceeded 39, 8 more tries.

As for launching himself as a torpedo - at least he commits himself, unlike Kearney who seems to fall off tackles a bit.

26-07-2015 8:38pm

jm08 wrote: »

Munster had the 2nd best defence in the league last season (conceeding 31 tries, one behind Ospreys). Leinster conceeded 39, 8 more tries.

As for launching himself as a torpedo - at least he commits himself, unlike Kearney who seems to fall off tackles a bit.

And there go the goalposts.

irishbucsfan · 26-07-2015 8:39pm

jm08 wrote: »

Munster had the 2nd best defence in the league last season (conceeding 31 tries, one behind Ospreys). Leinster conceeded 39, 8 more tries.

As for launching himself as a torpedo - at least he commits himself, unlike Kearney who seems to fall off tackles a bit.

The first paragraph are team statistics, irrelevant to a discussion about indvidual ability.

The second paragraph is a completely irrelevant and pointless attempt to take a shot at a player not even involved in the discussion.

jm08 · 26-07-2015 8:40pm

Victor Nervous Protein wrote: »

And there go the goalposts.

I think its ridiculous comparing Luke Fitz's defence to Jones'. They play in very different positions.

jm08 · 26-07-2015 8:41pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

The first paragraph are team statistics, irrelevant to a discussion about indvidual ability.

The second paragraph is a completely irrelevant and pointless attempt to take a shot at a player not even involved in the discussion.

The point was made that Fitz was Leinster's best back 3 defender. A team stat is relevant as to what the standard is.

26-07-2015 8:41pm

jm08 wrote: »

I think its ridiculous comparing Luke Fitz's defence to Jones'. They play in very different positions.

That's fine, it's a perfectly reasonable point.

That other stuff you said above has nothing to do with anything.

irishbucsfan · 26-07-2015 8:42pm

jm08 wrote: »

I think its ridiculous comparing Luke Fitz's defence to Jones'. They play in very different positions.

Jones plays on the wing for Ireland currently. Fitzgerald plays on the wing for Ireland currently.

irishbucsfan · 26-07-2015 8:43pm

jm08 wrote: »

The point was made that Fitz was Leinster's best back 3 defender. A team stat is relevant as to what the standard is.

No, it's really not. Leinster's back 3 aren't responsible for every try Leinster concede and Munster's back 3 aren't responsible for every try Munster don't concede, that should be blindingly obvious.

26-07-2015 8:44pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Jones plays on the wing for Ireland currently. Fitzgerald plays on the wing for Ireland currently.

Jones doesn't really play anywhere for Ireland currently, or certainly not enough to actually have a decent sample on the wing to judge him on. He made 2 appearances for a total of 20 mins in the 6N.

jm08 · 26-07-2015 8:46pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Jones plays on the wing for Ireland currently. Fitzgerald plays on the wing for Ireland currently.

Jones 's starts for Ireland have always been at fullback (v Argentina & Georgia)

Fitz has had one start on the wing in the last year.

Both have had so few starts, its hard to compare. I don't think Jones would ever be considered to start as a wing.

Wang King · 26-07-2015 8:46pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

But then by your argument, if fitz is a strong tackler but "not even close" to Jones. .... that makes Jones some how a super human tackler?.... or what adjective do you use to describe something so far beyond strong as to be not even close to it?

Well, when Joe looks around and brings Fitz into the pitch when defending on our line, and not Jones, who in turn makes a try saving tackle , we can argue semantics, until then, I stand by my opinion

jm08 · 26-07-2015 8:48pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

No, it's really not. Leinster's back 3 aren't responsible for every try Leinster concede and Munster's back 3 aren't responsible for every try Munster don't concede, that should be blindingly obvious.

I didn't claim that they were responsible for all the conceeded tries. But you won't have a good defence if your back 3 players are not good defensively

Edit: not saying that Leinster are bad defensively. Just that Munster last season were better than Leinster.

Wang King · 26-07-2015 8:50pm

Victor Nervous Protein wrote: »

Jones doesn't really play anywhere for Ireland currently, or certainly not enough to actually have a decent sample on the wing to judge him on. He made 2 appearances for a total of 20 mins in the 6N.

As opposed to Fitz first start in 4 years in an Ireland shirt?

irishbucsfan · 26-07-2015 8:51pm

jm08 wrote: »

I didn't claim that they were responsible for all the conceeded tries. But you won't have a good defence if your back 3 players are not good defensively.

No, you wouldn't. Similarly you could have superb defenders in all back 3 positions and still concede tries. It's a completely irrelevant statistic.

Wang King · 26-07-2015 8:52pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

No, you wouldn't. Similarly you could have superb defenders in all back 3 positions and still concede tries. It's a completely irrelevant statistic.

What's a relevant statistic there so, just throw one out so we can follow your meandering line of thinking?

26-07-2015 8:56pm

Wang King wrote: »

As opposed to Fitz first start in 4 years in an Ireland shirt?

Felix Jones has barely played on the wing. That is what my post said and this is fairly incontrovertible.

Luke Fitz has played a lot on the wing. I know he hasn't played much at all for Ireland recently.

irishbucsfan · 26-07-2015 8:56pm

Wang King wrote: »

What's a relevant statistic there so, just throw one out so we can follow your meandering line of thinking?

There is no relevant statistic when comparing the tackling ability of two individual rugby players.

Wang King · 26-07-2015 8:57pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

There is no relevant statistic when comparing the tackling ability of two individual rugby players.

So, nothing, that's grand thanks

irishbucsfan · 26-07-2015 9:00pm

Wang King wrote: »

So, nothing, that's grand thanks

That was the entire point. Do you disagree with that? I don't understand why you're picking up on this point.

jm08 · 26-07-2015 9:07pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

There is no relevant statistic when comparing the tackling ability of two individual rugby players.

There is a stat. Tackles made/Tackles missed.

v Wasps, Fitz made 9 tackles and missed 1. That is a fairly good stat for a centre.

irishbucsfan · 26-07-2015 9:10pm

jm08 wrote: »

There is a stat. Tackles made/Tackles missed.

v Wasps, Fitz made 9 tackles and missed 1. That is a fairly good stat for a centre.

That doesn't tell you anything about the quality of the tackles. A guy could be employed as a shooter in defense and be more likely to miss tackles. A guy could be chasing kicks all day and miss a couple of tackles on overcooked balls etc. That statistics are not granular enough.

Ireland RWC Backline

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