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Pumped shower - no isolator switch

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  • 18-06-2019 2:06pm
    #1
    mickdw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,277 ✭✭✭✭


    Is it a requirement to have a pullcord type switch outside of a pumped shower.
    I recently viewed a house and the electric shower has the expected pull cord while a pumped shower in another bathroom does not.
    Is this acceptable?


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    #2
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 16,901 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    Electric shower needs isolation switch on ceiling in bathroom or on wall outside.

    Power shower should have a 3amp spur, usually found in the hot press but can be elsewhere


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    #3
    mickdw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,277 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    Thanks

    Probably legit so.


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    #4
    Gashmuncher
    Registered Users Posts: 62 ✭✭Gashmuncher


    Wrong information, as is common on this thread.

    Rule 555.1 of ET 101 2008 deals with permanently connected appliances. Both a power shower and an electric shower which heats the water are permanently connected appliances. Look up the definition of an appliance at the front of the rule book. Appliances are required to have an isolating switch within 2 meters of the appliance.According to the wiring rules there is no difference between the requirements for any type of electric shower. I would not like to go looking for a tool to remove a 3 amp fuse if someone in my family was being electrocuted in the power shower.


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    #5
    mickdw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,277 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    Oh ok.
    That would have been my thinking originally hence asking the question here - that the isolator was an important safety device in any shower with electrical supply.


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    #6
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 16,901 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    Sorry for posting the wrong information.. My reply was based on what I see daily in my job doing shower repair.

    About 5 percent of power showers have a switch 2 meters from the appliance. The vast majority have switched spurs in the hot press or worse still in the attic. Some have no switch at all. I have seen 100s of power showers with RECI certs with a switched spur in the hot press & I've seen switched spurs left in the hot press after a RECI rewire. It's the fact that I've seen so many with certs for showers with a switched spur in the hot press that I thought this was the industry norm.

    Things I knew were wrong: I see power showers wired to a socket or the lights. Power showers with no spur or isolation switch at all. I see power showers wired to a 45 amp pull cord switch with 6mm cable.

    Most homeowners don't know how to isolate the power to their power shower. They are surprised when I point it out to them in the hot press


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    #7
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,536 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    An isolator is normally installed to allow a permanently connected appliance to be safely isolated locally for maintenance purposes. If an appliance were to be only to be isolated at the distribution board theoretically the isolation could be lifted without the knowledge of the person working on the appliance (unless additional safeguards are put in place).

    Local isolators are not intended to prevent electrocution by switching them off when someone gets a shock.


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    #8
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    Gashmuncher wrote: »
    . I would not like to go looking for a tool to remove a 3 amp fuse if someone in my family was being electrocuted in the power shower.

    You could probably just switch off the switch on the fused spur if you somehow happen to notice someone receiving a shock in the shower and the RCD doesn't operate.

    Unless you think a non switched spur was the suggestion being made.


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    #9
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,057 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    Sorry for posting the wrong information.. My reply was based on what I see daily in my job doing shower repair.

    About 5 percent of power showers have a switch 2 meters from the appliance. The vast majority have switched spurs in the hot press or worse still in the attic. Some have no switch at all. I have seen 100s of power showers with RECI certs with a switched spur in the hot press & I've seen switched spurs left in the hot press after a RECI rewire. It's the fact that I've seen so many with certs for showers with a switched spur in the hot press that I thought this was the industry norm.

    Things I knew were wrong: I see power showers wired to a socket or the lights. Power showers with no spur or isolation switch at all. I see power showers wired to a 45 amp pull cord switch with 6mm cable.

    Most homeowners don't know how to isolate the power to their power shower. They are surprised when I point it out to them in the hot press


    Is the pump not "the appliance"?

    How do you determine the applicance when its a water pump?
    If something goes wrong its connected to everything, hence earth bonding on your pipework.


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    #10
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 16,901 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    GreeBo wrote:
    How do you determine the applicance when its a water pump? If something goes wrong its connected to everything, hence earth bonding on your pipework.

    Saw a power shower recently that must have been low voltage originally and later replaced with 230v power shower. They never rewired but instead used the two core low voltage cable and then wrapped a bit of earth around the copper pipe & into the shower. The earth on the shower read 230v but jasus what happens when a plumber changes part of the pipe to qualpex? Without knowing it he will kill the earth to the shower. There is lots of shoddy work out there


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    #11
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,057 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    Saw a power shower recently that must have been low voltage originally and later replaced with 230v power shower. They never rewired but instead used the two core low voltage cable and then wrapped a bit of earth around the copper pipe & into the shower. The earth on the shower read 230v but jasus what happens when a plumber changes part of the pipe to qualpex? Without knowing it he will kill the earth to the shower. There is lots of shoddy work out there

    Power shower 100% needs an isolator near the shower unit.
    But a pumped shower, if its off a common pump (typically in the hotpress) wouldnt make sense.
    A specific, wall mounted shower pump would be treated as a power shower.


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    #12
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 16,901 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    GreeBo wrote:
    Power shower 100% needs an isolator near the shower unit. But a pumped shower, if its off a common pump (typically in the hotpress) wouldnt make sense. A specific, wall mounted shower pump would be treated as a power shower.


    The point I was originally making was that 95 percent of power showers don't have an isolation switch 2 meters away. I can only assume that this wasn't a requirement pre 2008.

    Pumps is the hot press don't fall under the bathroom wireing requirements


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    #13
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,057 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    The point I was originally making was that 95 percent of power showers don't have an isolation switch 2 meters away. I can only assume that this wasn't a requirement pre 2008.

    Pumps is the hot press don't fall under the bathroom wireing requirements

    I've never seen a power shower without a pull cord or isolation switch tbh.


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    #14
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,536 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Is the pump not "the appliance"?

    Often it is, yes. So in my case the water is heated by a gas boiler and the shower pump is in the hot press. The spur outlet for the pump is beside the pump itself (as it should be). As there is no electrical part associated with the shower within the bathroom, so no isolator is required for the shower within the bathroom.

    However if I had an instantaneous shower (such as a Triton T90) this would be a different situation, it would require a local isolator.

    How do you determine the applicance when its a water pump?

    The pump is an appliance.
    If something goes wrong its connected to everything, hence earth bonding on your pipework.

    The idea of equipotential bonding is to keep conductive parts at the same potential. If two devices are at different potentials and you were to touch both of them at the same time a current would flow through you. Electrically bonding them together helps prevent this potential difference from occurring, thus reducing the risk of a shock.


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    #15
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 16,901 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    Wow! You don't get into too many bathrooms so. In 95 percent of cases the switched spur in the hot press is the only isolation switch. Not knowing the wireing regs I am assuming that this was permitted pre 2008


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    #16
    Cerco
    Registered Users Posts: 2,034 ✭✭✭Cerco


    Some power showers seem to have electrical components within the unit fitted in shower cubicle.
    See:

    https://www.showerdoc.com/aqualisa-aquastream-thermostatic-post-2003-shower-spares


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    #17
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 16,901 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    Cerco wrote:
    Some power showers seem to have electrical components within the unit fitted in shower cubicle. See:

    Most power showers have electrical components inside them. The one you linked is low voltage and one of the safest on the market. Zero chance of it killing you


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    #18
    Cerco
    Registered Users Posts: 2,034 ✭✭✭Cerco


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    Most power showers have electrical components inside them. The one you linked is low voltage and one of the safest on the market. Zero chance of it killing you

    Where is the low voltage derived from? Is it from the transformer within the unit? I.e. is mains voltage supplied to the transformer primary and is that within the unit?


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    #19
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 16,901 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    Cerco wrote:
    Where is the low voltage derived from? Is it from the transformer within the unit? I.e. is mains voltage supplied to the transformer primary and is that within the unit?


    Seperate transformer fitted in the attic usually. Only 24 volts going to the shower itself. They are expensive showers but if you are going for a pump in a plastic box fitted in the shower then this is the safest one. Comes with a 3 years parts and labour warranty.


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