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Am I the asshole?

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    #62
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Sardonicat wrote: »
    And you seem to think that allowing your now adult son to treat you as an invisible and obligated benefactor is appropriate parenting. He is not a child. Continuing to treat him like one will create someone who is incapable of being a happy, adjusted adult.

    You still didn't answer the actual question I asked you, and are deflecting because I think you know full well what the parent did here was not right.

    As regards being an "obligated benefactor" the OP has not said, but if the teen is still in full time education, the parents are actually obliged to continue to maintain them until they are 23 or have left full time education, whichever comes first.

    Most parents do not expect to end supporting their children on their 18th birthday anymore as the OP obviously did by ending the standing order on that date.


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    #63
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    neonsofa wrote: »
    If they are not connected then OP confused the matter by saying it would now be "matched with household chores".

    I meant the failed payment.
    neonsofa wrote: »
    The timeline was that the child turned 18 and therefore an adult, so his payment would now be "matched" with certain terms. Which is fair enough, I'm not claiming otherwise.


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    #64
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    IJS84 wrote: »
    I don't earn a lot but have enough to keep a roof over my head pay my bills, feed myself and keep a motor on the road,

    Question is am I being the asshole here? My own mental health is touch and go at the best of times and this is really starting to get me going to dark places again.

    What has others done in a situation like this, surely there must be others there with similar issues


    I’m not sure I can put this in terms that aren’t going to sound like I’m ragging on you but from my own experiences the current situation you’re dealing with goes back a lot further than just the last few months of a back story. Your child has developed certain expectations, and naturally as most parents would, you’ve done what you could to try and protect your child because you want to see them happy and all the rest of it.

    Unfortunately, essentially what you’ve done is given your child certain expectations of freedom by financially supporting them and allowing them a great degree of independence at the same time, and it’s only NOW you’re questioning yourself and having reservations? The point is that it doesn’t matter whether anyone here thinks you’re an asshole or not, or whether you think you’re an asshole or not.

    From my perspective it looks like your child wants nothing to do with anyone who interferes with their independence. They’re having to figure shìt out on their own and with the best will in the world Jigsaw or Tusla or anyone else aren’t there to be the arbiters in the parents relationship with their child. Never mind thinking about it from your own perspective or the perspective of anyone else here, think about it from your child’s perspective - from what you’ve explained, I gather your child has no relationship with their other parent, their relationship with you is basically not much more than monitoring their phone activity and having reservations and financing their lifestyle while having very little involvement with them because you’re putting other things before them, so they’re living with their grandparents and they’re avoiding everyone essentially is what it looks like.

    If you want the relationship to change it’s going to require a huge amount of effort on your part, and a hell of a lot of patience. Sitting your child down every so often and explaining to them what your expectations of them are, isn’t actually going to teach them anything, and they’re going to learn nothing from the experience, it becomes akin to from their perspective meeting up with their parole officer every so often and just going through a routine that they know they have to do, or their freedom is restricted again. Bit of a shìte situation really as they’re learning nothing from you as their parent, who it’s not unreasonable to expect is there for them, and I don’t just mean on the other end of the phone when they’re wondering why their money’s been cut off.

    I know what I had to do to repair our relationship, and I’m not just talking about my relationship with my son, but also his relationship with his mam, and my relationship with his mam, because the key thing for me wasn’t questioning whether or not I was being an asshole or any of the rest of it, it was about acting in my sons best interests. Your own mental health is going to continue to suffer while you’re unwilling to make the changes that are necessary in order for your relationship with your child to improve. It should be obvious by now that if you keep doing the same thing, you get the same results, so a lot of the change has to come from you before you start seeing a change in your child’s behaviour and attitude towards you and towards others.

    It’s not going to happen overnight, or over the course of a couple of weeks or months. The issues which are now manifesting themselves have been developing for years, and that’s the kind of time span you need to be thinking about rather than just your current circumstances which are only temporary in the greater scheme of things in terms of your relationship with your child and your expectations for your child. Paying their phone bill and lodging a few quid in their bank account is no substitute for your being there for them. That’s only keeping your child at a distance from you, apart from the fact that they’re also physically distant from you. You’ve identified an issue for you that you have reservations about the amount of freedom they have, but from your child’s perspective it’s not freedom, they’re trying to escape from what they feel is a shìtty situation. I don’t know if they’re feeling a bit like they’ve gone from one bad situation to another and they have no guidance or support from the people they actually need it from - their parents! Your grandparents as fantastic and all as they are, and Tusla or Jigsaw, can’t provide for your child what they need from their parents.


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    #65
    Gruffalux
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,023 ✭✭✭Gruffalux


    I don't think you are an arsehole. Rearing humans through modern teenage hood is one of the fcuking hardest things in the world and mistakes are made, if not every hour, then at least daily :p On both sides.

    However, there are only one or two people in the world ever going to love them completely unconditionally, and life is very hard without that kind of love. So even if they are little bollixes they have to be unconditionally loved. That's your job.

    I was the oldest of a truck load of kids and was practically a live-in slave, the amount of chores I had from very young was Waaaayy too much and so it made me really easy on my kids when it came to enforcing the whole chores malarkey. After all I had them, they had no choice in that, and they are not my sidekicks to prop up the lifestyle I choose. They can be lazy gits as a result when given half a chance, but we completely skipped all those rows. Phew. I don't regret it. I don't know any adult fundamentally improved by their chore-doing history. They did cook, a lot, but that was because they liked it.

    I also just gave them whatever money I could and that they needed. Sometimes that was sweet feck all. Nope, often! But teens are expensive and you are getting off lightly not having to feed their cavernous bellies and cover their daily millionaire aspirations. I still give them money if they need it and I have it, even though they are well grown adults. As himself says what else would you do? They are your flesh and blood. I am happy to help them. Glad I can. Life is bloody hard enough without making it any harder. When you are old you won't be totting up those balance sheets.

    Just reboot as someone said earlier. Have a bit of craic together.


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    #66
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Deleted User wrote: »
    You still didn't answer the actual question I asked you, and are deflecting because I think you know full well what the parent did here was not right.

    As regards being an "obligated benefactor" the OP has not said, but if the teen is still in full time education, the parents are actually obliged to continue to maintain them until they are 23 or have left full time education, whichever comes first.

    Most parents do not expect to end supporting their children on their 18th birthday anymore as the OP obviously did by ending the standing order on that date.

    Ending a payment method does not mean the payment has ended. The plan might have been to restructure at someone and not leave it endless. Who knows. If it was me I'd have just done it manually.


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    #67
    neonsofa
    Registered Users Posts: 5,476 ✭✭✭neonsofa


    beauf wrote: »
    I meant the failed payment.

    I'm not talking about the failed payment though.

    In my post to OP in relation to whether the payment is conditional beyond the original terms OP set out they said this....
    IJS84 wrote: »
    The standing orders were set to expire the week of their 18th birthday and obviously slipped my own mind - I can only think at the time of setting this up I may have been thinking maybe they would a part time job if their own and may not need an allowance every week at this age.. As I said earlier this has now been sorted going forward. It's not really conditional, but as teens, as in my teens case do and they have been pushing boundaries etc especially during the lockdown - both my parents are high risk, and also care workers - unless anyone thinks it's unreasonable to ask someone help out around the house or keep in touch with a parent, I personally feel right to ask them to do this.

    where he says the payments are not conditional but that he expects a certain level of respect/engagement from the child in return, and my only point is that this should be communicated from the outset if payment in the future will be dependent upon same. As far as OPs child is concerned, they have upheld the terms of the agreement re payment (i have asked for clarification but they have not yet said otherwise)

    If the OP is looking for advice based purely on the communication issue as distinct from the payment then they need to address it with the child as separate too, and if that is the case then all comments about the child expecting handouts etc are moot points, because the OP set out their terms for payment and communication with him was not one of them, the op expected chores, the child was doing chores for payment. It was the OPs decision to propose those terms so he cant then begrudge having to pay out based on the very terms he set out.


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    #68
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    neonsofa wrote: »
    ... he cant then begrudge having to pay out based on the very terms he set out.

    Where does the OP begrudge this?


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    #69
    neonsofa
    Registered Users Posts: 5,476 ✭✭✭neonsofa


    beauf wrote: »
    Where does the OP begrudge this?

    I was referring to comments that lament the fact OP was being treated like an invisible and obligatory benefactor, and that the teen should have a job etc, and I said that OP can't then begrudge it when he set out the terms. I never said they did begrudge it although OPs earlier post does indicate they are not entirely happy with the set up.....
    IJS84 wrote: »
    My gut reaction with all this is to say go and get a job and control your own money,

    I don't earn a lot but have enough to keep a roof over my head pay my bills, feed myself and keep a motor on the road,

    Not all posts are a direct response to the original post. Its a message board. I expanded on some other points made.


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    #70
    Sardonicat
    Registered Users Posts: 12,378 ✭✭✭✭Sardonicat


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    You still didn't answer the actual question I asked you, and are deflecting because I think you know full well what the parent did here was not right.

    As regards being an "obligated benefactor" the OP has not said, but if the teen is still in full time education, the parents are actually obliged to continue to maintain them until they are 23 or have left full time education, whichever comes first.

    Most parents do not expect to end supporting their children on their 18th birthday anymore as the OP obviously did by ending the standing order on that date.

    I've made my stance clear. If the lad thinks his payments stopped because of his entightled behaviour then good. No harm. At all. I don't recall the OP telling him that's why the payment stopped, though. Once again, we are talking about an adult here. OP and OP's parents would be well within their rights to tell him to jog on. I'm not suggesting for one second they do that but that is a fact here .I'm not suggesting OP cuts him off financially either. I'm saying let this be a short, sharp shock at what happens, when, as an adult, you essentially bite the hand that feeds you.

    OP is trying to go and see his son, he is being avoided. He won't even respond with the usual 'I'm with Gavin, call you later' type brush offs. He cannot, at 18, be enabled in that kind of attitude towards the parent who is supporting him. I personally believe handing over money to an adult child who behaves so disrespectfully without calling them on their behaviour is far, far worse parenting, downright negligent, in fact, than neglecting to inform them that his free money ran out due to an oversight.


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    #71
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    neonsofa wrote: »
    I was referring to comments that lament the fact OP was being treated like an invisible and obligatory benefactor, and that the teen should have a job etc, and I said that OP can't then begrudge it when he set out the terms. I never said they did begrudge it although OPs earlier post does indicate they are not entirely happy with the set up..... ..

    The terms are not simply doing chores it was about showing respect to get respect. Doing chores is only a part of that. At 18 you shouldn't have to be bribed into it. But then "teenagers". :rolleyes:

    But maybe the lesson here is don't bite the hand that feeds you.


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    #72
    Day Lewin
    Registered Users Posts: 4,615 ✭✭✭Day Lewin


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    .......

    ......I know what I had to do to repair our relationship, and I’m not just talking about my relationship with my son, but also his relationship with his mam, and my relationship with his mam, because the key thing for me wasn’t questioning whether or not I was being an asshole or any of the rest of it, it was about acting in my sons best interests. Your own mental health is going to continue to suffer while you’re unwilling to make the changes that are necessary in order for your relationship with your child to improve. It should be obvious by now that if you keep doing the same thing, you get the same results, so a lot of the change has to come from you before you start seeing a change in your child’s behaviour and attitude towards you and towards others.

    It’s not going to happen overnight, or over the course of a couple of weeks or months. The issues which are now manifesting themselves have been developing for years, and that’s the kind of time span you need to be thinking about rather than just your current circumstances which are only temporary in the greater scheme of things in terms of your relationship with your child and your expectations for your child. Paying their phone bill and lodging a few quid in their bank account is no substitute for your being there for them. That’s only keeping your child at a distance from you, apart from the fact that they’re also physically distant from you. You’ve identified an issue for you that you have reservations about the amount of freedom they have, but from your child’s perspective it’s not freedom, they’re trying to escape from what they feel is a shìtty situation. I don’t know if they’re feeling a bit like they’ve gone from one bad situation to another and they have no guidance or support from the people they actually need it from - their parents! Your grandparents as fantastic and all as they are, and Tusla or Jigsaw, can’t provide for your child what they need from their parents.

    Got it in one.


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    #73
    neonsofa
    Registered Users Posts: 5,476 ✭✭✭neonsofa


    beauf wrote: »
    The terms are not simply doing chores it was about showing respect to get respect. Doing chores is only a part of that. At 18 you shouldn't have to be bribed into it. But then "teenagers". :rolleyes:

    But maybe the lesson here is don't bite the hand that feeds you.

    Which was my entire point. If the payment is conditional on behaving a certain way, then that is the OP setting that condition. If the communication issue is separate to payment, and about teaching respect, then address it as such and dont bring the issue of payment into it at all. Saying he cant expect payment if he behaves like x y or z is turning it into a bribe. We are not in disagreement here.


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    #74
    Sardonicat
    Registered Users Posts: 12,378 ✭✭✭✭Sardonicat


    OP, have you considered handing him his allowance in cash form? Arrange to meet him, get him into the car and drive around for a bit. Maybe ye can start communicating with each other that way? He'll probably hate it at first but will go along with it for the money aspect. It's a way in. You need to be a physical presence, even if he's hating you and lashing out at you, and trying to avoid you, you need to be there because more than the cash he needs his Dad to guide him over the next few years.


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    #75
    neonsofa
    Registered Users Posts: 5,476 ✭✭✭neonsofa


    Sardonicat wrote: »
    OP, have you considered handing him his allowance in cash form? Arrange to meet him, get him into the car and drive around for a bit. Maybe ye can start communicating with each other that way? He'll probably hate it at first but will go along with it for the money aspect. It's a way in. You need to be a physical presence, even if he's hating you and lashing out at you, and trying to avoid you, you need to be there because more than the cash he needs his Dad to guide him over the next few years.

    This is a great idea.


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    #76
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Sardonicat wrote: »
    I've made my stance clear. If the lad thinks his payments stopped because of his entightled behaviour then good. No harm. At all. I don't recall the OP telling him that's why the payment stopped, though. Once again, we are talking about an adult here. OP and OP's parents would be well within their rights to tell him to jog on. I'm not suggesting for one second they do that but that is a fact here .I'm not suggesting OP cuts him off financially either. I'm saying let this be a short, sharp shock at what happens, when, as an adult, you essentially bite the hand that feeds you.

    I'll take that as a yes. You believe its okay for a parent to manipulate their teen to cover up their mistake and save face, while in the same breath demanding respect from them.

    As for no harm? At all? To a teen who has been through a lot with his parents already, has been (maybe still is) under the care of Jigsaw (who deal with teen mental health) and you think his parent doing this is no harm? At all?

    You have strange standards.
    Sardonicat wrote: »
    I don't recall the OP telling him that's why the payment stopped, though. Once again, we are talking about an adult here. OP and OP's parents would be well within their rights to tell him to jog on. I'm not suggesting for one second they do that but that is a fact here .I'm not suggesting OP cuts him off financially either. I'm saying let this be a short, sharp shock at what happens, when, as an adult, you essentially bite the hand that feeds you.

    Does this make it clearer?
    IJS84 wrote: »
    Low and behold today my phone blew up when no money was transferred to the account for the now young adult (I had standing orders set up but they were set to an expiry date which passed and I forgot until I checked my account. Explained to my young adult about trying to contact them to catch up etc but as it is now after 5pm and I'm still in work, now any back transfer will be actioned until tomorrow (Friday) and a bank transfer can take up to 5 days (it's usually much faster as we all know). They are now back and forth about trying to control them and what are they to do without money etc. Reminded the conversation about respect to others etc, nobody gets anything for free and that I'm trying show them the value in working some bit for money they get.

    If you don't see this as the parent turning their mistake around to save face and make it appear like something the teen did was why the funds were stopped, then you're being selective about what you want to see.

    An 18 year old may be legally an adult, but as has already been said, if they are still in full time education, they are fully entitled to financial support from their parents.

    I do not know a single 18 year old with a part time job who earns enough to be self-sustaining and pay rent, food, bills etc which you seem to have an expectation of. Believing their parents can just tell their kids to "jog on" at 18 may have been the case 40 years ago, but its not the reality in 2020.


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    #77
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    You seem to adding 1+1 and getting 100.

    No one suggested the teen be self-sustaining. Personally I don't agree that they can't be. But thats a different issue.
    Its an allowance for chores, not kicking them out and without food and shelter.


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    #78
    neonsofa
    Registered Users Posts: 5,476 ✭✭✭neonsofa


    beauf wrote: »
    You seem to adding 1+1 and getting 100.

    No one suggested the teen be self-sustaining. Personally I don't agree that they can't be. But thats a different issue.
    Its an allowance for chores, not kicking them out and without food and shelter.

    Yeah in fairness most teenagers would have a part time job to earn their own disposable income, which is what this allowance for chores provides. I'd imagine the grandparents, via OP, provide food and shelter/bills for the teenager. Not the allowance they receive from OP.


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    #79
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Its been inferred several times.

    Phrases like "they're 18 now, they're an adult" or "obligatory benefactor" or "biting the hand that feeds you" or "tell them to jog on" have been used.

    The more this thread goes on the sorrier I feel for the teen who is expected to behave like an adult just days past their 18th birthday, but up until a relatively short time ago had no clear parental guidance, and now what guidance they do have, is from a distance, overly heavy handed, and (if it suits the parent's agenda) dishonest at best, manipulative at worst.

    Anyway, we won't agree on this, so I'll leave it there.


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    #80
    Sardonicat
    Registered Users Posts: 12,378 ✭✭✭✭Sardonicat


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    I'll take that as a yes. You believe its okay for a parent to manipulate their teen to cover up their mistake and save face, while in the same breath demanding respect from them.

    As for no harm? At all? To a teen who has been through a lot with his parents already, has been (maybe still is) under the care of Jigsaw (who deal with teen mental health) and you think his parent doing this is no harm? At all?

    You have strange standards.



    Does this make it clearer?



    If you don't see this as the parent turning their mistake around to save face and make it appear like something the teen did was why the funds were stopped, then you're being selective about what you want to see.

    An 18 year old may be legally an adult, but as has already been said, if they are still in full time education, they are fully entitled to financial support from their parents.

    I do not know a single 18 year old with a part time job who earns enough to be self-sustaining and pay rent, food, bills etc which you seem to have an expectation of. Believing their parents can just tell their kids to "jog on" at 18 may have been the case 40 years ago, but its not the reality in 2020.

    You really like making things up. He didn't lie to save face. He lied to teach him a lesson. And I fully agree with that. I don't expect this guy to be fully independent, at all. I've never said that. In fact I've said the opposite. Because of what he's been through he will need support and leeway for longer than most because he has been through hell and is more than likely a few years behind his peers in maturity. Part of that support is being an active parent and demonstrating that you can't treat your old man like an ATM without feelings. Because Dad and Nan and Grandad know his back story they and should cut him some slack but the rest of the world won't be doing that and he needs help understanding that. Sometimes that's gonna be harsh. What good do you think it will do him to just keep sending him funds without any engagement? Really?

    I actually did know a few 18 year olds who were fully independent of their parents by the time the second semester of college began in their first year. That was 15 years ago. I get that this is becoming less and less frequent because of the lazy parenting that involves throwing money and material things and activities at 'children' for longer and longer without any expectation of thanks, earning it or respect. Never the word 'no'. I call that child abuse. I call, from time to time, answering the phone to your Dad if only to grunt 'What? I'm fine. I'm out with me mates, stop annoying me, will ye' basic respect that everyone should have. I'm not suggesting he jump to attention whenever his Dad rings. Just acknowledge him from time to time. A parent not attempting to instill that in their child is a waste of space.

    Anyway, the issue here is the son's relationship with his Dad at an extremely difficult transition period in his life where he needs his Dad (more than his money)but is shutting him out. I've given a suggestion above and leave it at that and wish the OP and his son well.

    I'll let those who think they should keep giving their children everything they demand like big, fat babies until they're 40 with their own issues and wish them luck as well, because they most cretainly will need it.


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    #81
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Its been inferred several times.

    Phrases like "they're 18 now, they're an adult" or "obligatory benefactor" or "biting the hand that feeds you" or "tell them to jog on" have been used. ...

    There's this specific situation.
    Then there's teens in general.

    Not the same thing. Shouldn't take things literally..... or for granted :D


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    #82
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    I'll take that as a yes. You believe its okay for a parent to manipulate their teen to cover up their mistake and save face, while in the same breath demanding respect from them.

    As for no harm? At all? To a teen who has been through a lot with his parents already, has been (maybe still is) under the care of Jigsaw (who deal with teen mental health) and you think his parent doing this is no harm? At all?

    You have strange standards.

    If you don't see this as the parent turning their mistake around to save face and make it appear like something the teen did was why the funds were stopped, then you're being selective about what you want to see.

    An 18 year old may be legally an adult, but as has already been said, if they are still in full time education, they are fully entitled to financial support from their parents.

    I do not know a single 18 year old with a part time job who earns enough to be self-sustaining and pay rent, food, bills etc which you seem to have an expectation of. Believing their parents can just tell their kids to "jog on" at 18 may have been the case 40 years ago, but its not the reality in 2020.


    I don’t think that’s the point was being made at all. More generally speaking it’s still fairly standard that by 18 children are expected to be able to be self-sufficient to some degree, regardless of whether they’re in full-time education or not, and it doesn’t do them any harm to have this experience - it’s basically how they learn to be self-sufficient and gain confidence and have a bit of independence that they have earned, as opposed to taking it for granted that they will always be provided for financially, especially when as the OP suggests they’re struggling somewhat financially themselves.

    Their parents certainly have an obligation to provide for their children, but that doesn’t mean any child is entitled to an expectation of financial support that the parents simply cannot provide. That of course requires maturity on the part of the child to understand that their parents are in difficult financial circumstances, and unfortunately in some cases children do struggle with the concept that they aren’t entitled to the latest iPhone or the latest designer gear or any of the rest of it, that they might actually have to save up for the things they really want, by earning the money for these things themselves.

    I know plenty of teenagers btw who have part-time jobs and are also in full-time education and they know that their parents expect them to be able to provide for themselves by the time they turn 18. Teenagers I know, including my own son, want that kind of responsibility and independence and actual freedom for themselves. At the same time I can understand why the OP’s child didn’t or hasn’t yet developed that mentality given the circumstances.

    I do wonder what the OP was thinking when they were setting up the standing order and neglected to mention to their child that it had a finite date on their 18th birthday. I can understand why the child was a bit miffed when their expectations weren’t met, and I know what you mean by the OP trying to save face and all, frankly it was silly on the part of the OP, but not the end of the world either, and certainly not something I’d hold over their heads that they had to apologise to their own child for. I’d be more interested in what the OP and their child did for their child’s 18th birthday, how they celebrated it as opposed to giving their child a land and neglecting to mention it to them.


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    #83
    Sardonicat
    Registered Users Posts: 12,378 ✭✭✭✭Sardonicat


    beauf wrote: »
    There's this specific situation.
    Then there's teens in general.

    Not the same thing. Shouldn't take things literally..... or for granted :D

    And there's selective quoting to support their claim I said something I never said . The over protesting is suggestive of someone with an at home adult male son who has been rendered incapable by a parent determined to infatilze their offspring so as not to be left alone.


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    #84
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Sardonicat wrote: »
    You really like making things up. He didn't lie to save face. He lied to teach him a lesson.

    I'll stop you there, because the rest is just bluster. Thank you for admitting he lied, when apparantly you couldn't see it earlier.

    Yes we clearly do have very different standards. In my world, respect has to be earned, it is not bestowed unconditionally just because of DNA. Lying to someone where there is already a fragile relationship is not going to go far towards building a solid, trusting relationship with them.

    Sending their teen funds was not conditional on them answering their phone. Period. It was for chores, and no where has the OP indicated that either being asked to do chores, or completing them, was an issue for the teen.

    The parent here took the opportunity to use their banking "error" to "teach their child a lesson" rather then admit the truth of what happened and apologise for it, and that, to me is very wrong and very dishonest. I would not trust someone who behaved like that, end of story.

    I think there is very little fear this young person will be one of those still hanging around at 40, looking for money from their parents. Far more likely they probably can't wait to get out of the situation they are in now, and away from both of them.


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    #85
    Sardonicat
    Registered Users Posts: 12,378 ✭✭✭✭Sardonicat


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    I'll stop you there, because the rest is just bluster. Thank you for admitting he lied, when apparantly you couldn't see it earlier.

    Yes we clearly do have very different standards. In my world, respect has to be earned, it is not bestowed unconditionally just because of DNA. Lying to someone where there is already a fragile relationship is not going to go far towards building a solid, trusting relationship with them.

    Sending their teen funds was not conditional on them answering their phone. Period. It was for chores, and no where has the OP indicated that either being asked to do chores, or completing them, was an issue for the teen.

    The parent here took the opportunity to use their banking "error" to "teach their child a lesson" rather then admit the truth of what happened and apologise for it, and that, to me is very wrong and very dishonest. I would not trust someone who behaved like that, end of story.

    I think there is very little fear this young person will be one of those still hanging around at 40, looking for money from their parents. Far more likely they probably can't wait to get out of the situation they are in now, and away from both of them.

    I thought you were 'leaving it there' 5 posts back? I won't be engaging with someone who disingenouosly quotes me out if context. It wasn't the OPS child I was suggesting would be at home at 40, BTW.


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    #86
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Sardonicat wrote: »
    I thought you were 'leaving it there' 5 posts back?
    Then stop directing replies at me.

    Hopefully the OP will take something useful from the back and forth.

    ___________


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    #87
    neonsofa
    Registered Users Posts: 5,476 ✭✭✭neonsofa


    Sardonicat wrote: »

    I actually did know a few 18 year olds who were fully independent of their parents by the time the second semester of college began in their first year. That was 15 years ago. I get that this is becoming less and less frequent because of the lazy parenting that involves throwing money and material things and activities at 'children' for longer and longer without any expectation of thanks, earning it or respect. Never the word 'no'. I call that child abuse. I call, from time to time, answering the phone to your Dad if only to grunt 'What? I'm fine. I'm out with me mates, stop annoying me, will ye' basic respect that everyone should have. I'm not suggesting he jump to attention whenever his Dad rings. Just acknowledge him from time to time. A parent not attempting to instill that in their child is a waste of space.

    ....

    I'll let those who think they should keep giving their children everything they demand like big, fat babies until they're 40 with their own issues and wish them luck as well, because they most cretainly will need it.

    I agree with the majority of your points, but acknowledging that it is difficult for young people to become financially independent in the current climate does not equate to the infantalizing of young adults in the way you seem to be claiming. As you even say in your post, you're talking about 15 years ago. We are currently in the middle of a pandemic which will leave a lasting mark on the global economy for years to come, when the country was only beginning to see the "recovery" from a previous recession.

    While there are many 18 year old who could get a handy job and find a flat share with friends, the current housing market is a mess even for the well paid in many parts of the country, and it seems like the OPs son has had a tough time in school so may not have a network of friends who he could houseshare with. Many students, who seem financially independent from their parents, in that they live away from home, are claiming student grants from the state which isnt self sufficient. Not saying the person you knew was, or even that the majority are, just pointing out that many students away from the family home aren't fully self sufficient even if they are not reliant on parents for day to day support.

    I'm saying this as someone who had a child, job, college and rent/bills to pay throughout my late teens and early 20s btw so its not out defensiveness because it applies to me, its just that even from the perspective of someone who now has a decent job, qualifications, who generally speaking has their **** together, I have had issues with securing accommodation and trying to keep my head above water financially (admittedly largely due to childcare costing the same as my extortionate rent which wouldnt be an issue for those who are child free), so I cant imagine trying to get on top of things now as an 18 year old who has already had their fair share of struggles. What comes easy to some may seem like a mountain for others and its not always for want of trying, or due to lazy parenting.


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    #88
    Sardonicat
    Registered Users Posts: 12,378 ✭✭✭✭Sardonicat


    I know it's tough currently to establish yourself independently and I take your point. My point was more that the capacity is there if the conditions are right and young adults should be encouraged to be as independent as possible and this cannot be achieved by throwing cash at them without an expectation of gratitude or an attempt to earn it. All that does create a sense of entighlement . It is becoming more common to come across 20 something year olds who do nothing except spend someone else's money and have no clue how to perform the most basic essential task like load a washing machine. And it's becoming more frequent to encounter parents who refer to these young adults as children and don't expect then to do anything for themselves. I've seen it in real life and encountered it on here. Grown ups living at home who do not contribute a penny, have meals cooked, clothes washed, rooms cleaned who hold down professional jobs. What kind of adult is that?

    Hopefully, things won't go that way for OPS son. If they can mend their relationship he can help get him on track towards independence. He's been through a hell of a lot and must have a lot of anger, pain and feelings of rejection to work through. He can't do that alone.


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    #89
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    beauf wrote: »
    If they are going to college...

    True but if they aren't then it depends on the situation. Taking a year out, travel, lots to do before life gets serious.


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    #90
    neonsofa
    Registered Users Posts: 5,476 ✭✭✭neonsofa


    Sardonicat wrote: »
    I know it's tough currently to establish yourself independently and I take your point. My point was more that the capacity is there if the conditions are right and young adults should be encouraged to be as independent as possible and this cannot be achieved by throwing cash at them without an expectation of gratitude or an attempt to earn it. All that does create a sense of entighlement . It is becoming more common to come across 20 something year olds who do nothing except spend someone else's money and have no clue how to perform the most basic essential task like load a washing machine. And it's becoming more frequent to encounter parents who refer to these young adults as children and don't expect then to do anything for themselves. I've seen it in real life and encountered it on here. Grown ups living at home who do not contribute a penny, have meals cooked, clothes washed, rooms cleaned who hold down professional jobs. What kind of adult is that?

    I agree. On the other hand though, it seems OPs son/daughter did earn the money, by doing the chores that were expected of him (I can only assume they did since OP never claimed otherwise). Sure I agree, he should be showing respect too, but that is a discussion on basic respect that needs to be had in an equally adult way, not a reactionary comment OP throws at the child when they enquire about their payment. Respect is a two way street and if the OP wants the young adult to act like a grown up then treating him like a bold child isn't going to help the situation, whether it is "justified" or not.


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    #91
    Sardonicat
    Registered Users Posts: 12,378 ✭✭✭✭Sardonicat


    neonsofa wrote: »
    I agree. On the other hand though, it seems OPs son/daughter did earn the money, by doing the chores that were expected of him (I can only assume they did since OP never claimed otherwise). Sure I agree, he should be showing respect too, but that is a discussion on basic respect that needs to be had in an equally adult way, not a reactionary comment OP throws at the child when they enquire about their payment. Respect is a two way street and if the OP wants the young adult to act like a grown up then treating him like a bold child isn't going to help the situation, whether it is "justified" or not.
    I agree but it's done now. The best that can be done IMO, is turn it into a lesson and try to move on. Get back into his life as a physical presence which is tough because Dad is persona non gratis right now. I'll repeat my advice to hand him cash in the car and talk to him while driving so no awkward eye contact. And be honest. It must hurt your feelings to be ignored by your child. Tell him 'I feel rejected' Maybe the lad does too and ignoring his Dad was a way of hitting back. Just get the conversation started.


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