Is it just luck?

mariaalice · 19-06-2019 12:20pm #1

Thinking about this.

How come some teenagers can watch horrendous violence porn, make stupit mistakes, do risky things sexually and with alcohol and or drugs do risky things in general because of immaturity or plain stupidity and never come to serious harm, them grow up go to college or get a job or both laugh at their teenage selves and basically become normal adults.

Verse those that don't and end up making a mess of things.

Is it, environment, parenting, personality, intellegence or is it just luck?

GreeBo · 19-06-2019 12:23pm

mariaalice wrote: »

Thinking about this.

How come some teenagers can watch horrendous violence porn, make stupit mistakes, do risky things sexually and with alcohol and or drugs do risky things in general because of immaturity or plain stupidity and never come to serious harm, them grow up go to college or get a job or both laugh at their teenage selves and basically become normal adults.

Verse those that don't and end up making a mess of things.

Is it, environment, parenting, personality, intellegence or is it just luck?

It's knowing right from wrong.

19-06-2019 12:23pm

I would place an emphasis on parenting. Scumbags emulate scumbags.

mariaalice · 19-06-2019 12:25pm

GreeBo wrote: »

It's knowing right from wrong.

Its not as simple as that drugs and underage drinking are illegal and teenagers still do it some come to harm and some don't there must be a reason.

bear1 · 19-06-2019 12:27pm

mariaalice wrote: »

Thinking about this.

How come some teenagers can watch horrendous violence porn, make stupit mistakes, do risky things sexually and with alcohol and or drugs do risky things in general because of immaturity or plain stupidity and never come to serious harm, them grow up go to college or get a job or both laugh at their teenage selves and basically become normal adults.

Verse those that don't and end up making a mess of things.

Is it, environment, parenting, personality, intellegence or is it just luck?

Horrendous violence porn?
Stupid mistakes, sexual risks and alcohol risks and drug abuse.
The post seems somewhat exaggerated.
I think many of us have seen beyond weird crap on the net.
Two girls one cup? One man one jar?
Rotten.com etc.
I'd say the reason why this is much more prevalent in our younger generation is because it's a form of experimenting.
When you're older you know what not to watch and what not to take or what your limit is but you'd need to experience to know what your limit is.
I wouldn't put it down to stupidity as most teens would be immature as default.

mariaalice · 19-06-2019 12:28pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I would place an emphasis on parenting. Scumbags emulate scumbags.

Nearly all teenagers experiment sexually and with alchole, some will add drugs, again some will come to no real harm with this behavior except making a fool of themselves and some will do serious damage to themselves.

bear1 · 19-06-2019 12:28pm

mariaalice wrote: »

Its not as simple as that drugs and underage drinking are illegal and teenagers still do it some come to harm and some don't there must be a reason.

Genetics, some can smoke until they reach their 80s without cancer.
Some don't smoke and die of cancer
Why?

....... · 19-06-2019 12:30pm

We are a product of both nature (our genes, our physical make up), our nurture (how we were brought up) and some luck.

Perhaps for some people the upbringing is enough to overcome problems in the brain that they were born with, in other cases they were born ok and the environment changed their brain chemistry to something disturbing.

I dont think there is a single formula.

We would all agree that there are abberant people like Ted Bundy or Boy A who take pleasure in someones elses suffering and death. But no one knows if Boy A was born that way, came to be that way from environment, or was just unlucky and had some combination of both.

Overall people are less violent than they used to be. But there will always be these outliers.

Snotty · 19-06-2019 12:31pm

So your question is, why are people different?

DEFTLEFTHAND · 19-06-2019 12:35pm

bear1 wrote: »

Genetics, some can smoke until they reach their 80s without cancer.
Some don't smoke and die of cancer
Why?

Only about a third of lifetime smokers contract a smoking related cancer anyway. They're more likely to die from stroke/heart attack.

Like you say genes do play a large part in cancer, you can live like monk but you can't change you're genetics. Some are just more predisposed to it than others.

mariaalice · 19-06-2019 12:35pm

I think luck is a large part of it, I did things as a teenager that were more stupit that anything else but was lucky it has little to no effect on my life.

banie01 · 19-06-2019 12:37pm

Can it not be all of the above as well as none?
The argument of nature versus nurture falls apart for me when I look at my own family circumstances and the range of adult outcomes that a broadly similar range of home life had.
Some were given more attention and care than others, because as chance would have it they needed more care/intervention.

My siblings range from college graduate, school drop out, career criminals, junkie, teenage single mother, widowed, student all different people and all on different spots of the nature Vs nurture spectrum.

Looking for a substantive causative factor in teen offending is barring sociopathic/psychopathic pathology a waste of time.

The "worst" of my siblings had substantial early intervention with support services, was amongst the very 1st in Ireland to be assessed for ADHD (Thanks to my mother's research and effort) was provided support and help from a young age to ensure the best possible outcome.
He is currently awaiting trial in the UK for a fairly serious crime, after that he will likely be extradited back to Ireland to face further and unrelated charges.
Violent and property related crimes.

I have another brother who had the misfortune to be led astray by the idiot above but who is now coming good.
In his mid 20's and hopefully can rebuild his life.

Do I blame their recidivism on "middle child syndrome"?
Because IMHO my parents spent so long trying their utmost to understand how after a few kids that were "normal" for want of a better phrase?
They suddenly had kids who from very young, were rebellious, and constantly pushing boundaries?
I have younger siblings who I honestly feel never got to know our parents because those parents spent all their energy trying to fix the different ones.
Seeking expert help, pushing for HSE( in the 1st instance so long ago it was Health Board assistance!)

Some kids grow into bad people, it doesn't matter what interventions are made.
I don't know the pathology that causes it, but it is far more complex and nuanced than luck, environment or even a combination of those factors.

I'd love a behavioural, environmental and even genetic review of my family's little cohort of fúcked up...

I know it's a sample size of 1 family and 8 kids, but I am always astounded that those who had the most appropriate and professional intervention...
Grew to be professional vicious cúnts.

bear1 · 19-06-2019 12:39pm

mariaalice wrote: »

I think luck is a large part of it, I did things as a teenager that were more stupit that anything else but was lucky it has little to no effect on my life.

Depends, how did English classes go?

Elemonator · 19-06-2019 12:40pm

Read a fascinating case when I was studying genetics law. The research suggested that some individuals are genetically predisposed to aggressive behaviour. Always wondered just how much of an impact it would have when considered in the context of multiple factors such as environment. An appeal based on these genetics recently reduced a murder sentence in Italy.

For your own viewing, they are academic papers on the subject:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2987314/
https://aic.gov.au/publications/tandi/tandi263
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3955018/

GreeBo · 19-06-2019 12:45pm

mariaalice wrote: »

Its not as simple as that drugs and underage drinking are illegal and teenagers still do it some come to harm and some don't there must be a reason.

It's still knowing right from wrong though.

You might know underage drinking is wrong but make the call that its not "wrong enough".

I think the two in the Kriegel case either couldnt tell or had no empathy to care about right from wrong.

....... · 19-06-2019 12:49pm

banie01 wrote: »

Can it not be all of the above as well as none?

Absolutely, there is no pattern.

I think its all of the above/some of the above/none of the above in various cases.

Rather than figure out what makes a person like Boy A (which seems impossible) I think it would be more useful to identify people like Boy A before they do the things they do.

fryup · 19-06-2019 12:55pm

there's always and always will be the "wild kids" out of control feral types...but the thing is there's a lot more temptation for bad behaviour in society nowadays what with hardcore porn, underage sex, drink drugs, online bullying...religion has also lost its influence on young people so its a case of.. couldn't care less two fingers to the world imo

....... · 19-06-2019 12:56pm

fryup wrote: »

there's always and always will be the "wild kids" out of control feral types...but the thing is there's a lot more temptation for bad behaviour in society nowadays what with hardcore porn, drugs, online bullying...religion has also lost its influence on young people so its a case of.. couldn't care less two fingers to the world

There were always the same temptations, its just its easier for people to access imagery these days.

And easier to stay anonymous.

But back in the day people used to send poison pen letters to bully victims.

19-06-2019 12:57pm

I think that ones DNA plays a big part. Some can have one drink and leave it at that. Their sibling might not be able to stop at one and drink themselves into oblivion. Same for illegal drugs.
The side affects of long term abuse of drink and/or drugs can have serious long term affects. This isn’t limited to any particular class. There are many cases of the upper class succumbing to tragic endings from such abuse.

banie01 · 19-06-2019 1:04pm

GreeBo wrote: »

It's still knowing right from wrong though.

You might know underage drinking is wrong but make the call that its not "wrong enough".

I think the two in the Kriegel case either couldnt tell or had no empathy to care about right from wrong.

This!

I only have the one kid and that's all there will be fruiting my loins.

But!
My aim as a parent has always been to instill a moral compass!
To teach the difference between right and wrong and ensure my child both understands that difference and the consequences of choosing wrong.

All I can do is my best to ensure that I give my child the tools and the framework of life experience to frame his tough choices against.
Then hope I did that job well enough that when the time comes he will make the right call.
It may not always be a good choice, but sometimes I think we have to settle for "least bad" and deal with the consequence.

Teaching our kids to actively avoid situations where "least bad" still involves harm to another...
That's where I hope whatever else I do as a parent, that I do that right.

fryup · 19-06-2019 1:07pm

....... wrote: »

There were always the same temptations, its just its easier for people to access imagery these days.

thats what i'm getting at

B_ecke_r · 19-06-2019 1:09pm

I watched plenty of violent movies when I was younger, I always remember knowing they were just movies though,

I don't think we will ever have the answer to this.

are people born evil?

Wibbs · 19-06-2019 1:13pm

GreeBo wrote: »

It's still knowing right from wrong though.

You might know underage drinking is wrong but make the call that its not "wrong enough".

Or they are just adolescent children. In very basic brain and neural development terms, as kids our amygdala is what's more in control, the more emotional, "animal", risk taking part of the brain. The frontal cortex is where we make considered rational decisions and that is still forming at that age and doesn't fully form until late teens and things like environmental stress and things like drugs can delay that further(with some it never fully kicks in). So as adults with fully formed brains and minds we can find it hard to judge the minds of children. We have learned not to as most judicial systems in the world have different "ages of reason" going on. A six year old who finds a gun and shoots and kills someone will not be regarded the same way as a 30 year old who does. Adolescents tend to live in the middle ground legally(though places like America that can vary, especially if said adolescent is poor and/or Black).

Sure "right" and "wrong" come into it and that's a comforting if simple response, but they are quite nebulous concepts that constantly shift through time and culture. Very few things we consider today as purely wrong or right have always been considered that way. If you were born and bred in Ancient Rome you would almost certainly not see slavery as a moral wrong. Indeed consider Christianity and its holy books, not a peep about it, yet Jesus and the early church leaders and writers would have been surrounded by it. One of the popes whose name escapes sent the first official missionary(Augustine) to England because the story he goes he saw two Anglo kids in a slave market in Rome and made a lame joke about how like angels they looked and they should be converted. No comment about freeing them and the head of the church was pursuing a slave market. Infanticide was barely frowned upon in certain cultures, usually with some age limit like their first birthday. Rape and murder have regularly been state and culturally sanctioned. Same goes for underage sexual relations, drug taking etc. That list is a long one and depending on time and culture and circumstance our moral compass has many "true norths".

bear1 · 19-06-2019 1:43pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Or they are just adolescent children. In very basic brain and neural development terms, as kids our amygdala is what's more in control, the more emotional, "animal", risk taking part of the brain. The frontal cortex is where we make considered rational decisions and that is still forming at that age and doesn't fully form until late teens and things like environmental stress and things like drugs can delay that further(with some it never fully kicks in). So as adults with fully formed brains and minds we can find it hard to judge the minds of children. We have learned not to as most judicial systems in the world have different "ages of reason" going on. A six year old who finds a gun and shoots and kills someone will not be regarded the same way as a 30 year old who does. Adolescents tend to live in the middle ground legally(though places like America that can vary, especially if said adolescent is poor and/or Black).

Sure "right" and "wrong" come into it and that's a comforting if simple response, but they are quite nebulous concepts that constantly shift through time and culture. Very few things we consider today as purely wrong or right have always been considered that way. If you were born and bred in Ancient Rome you would almost certainly not see slavery as a moral wrong. Indeed consider Christianity and its holy books, not a peep about it, yet Jesus and the early church leaders and writers would have been surrounded by it. One of the popes whose name escapes sent the first official missionary(Augustine) to England because the story he goes he saw two Anglo kids in a slave market in Rome and made a lame joke about how like angels they looked and they should be converted. No comment about freeing them and the head of the church was pursuing a slave market. Infanticide was barely frowned upon in certain cultures, usually with some age limit like their first birthday. Rape and murder have regularly been state and culturally sanctioned. Same goes for underage sexual relations, drug taking etc. That list is a long one and depending on time and culture and circumstance our moral compass has many "true norths".

*Drops the mic*

Wibbs · 19-06-2019 1:47pm

rossie1977 · 19-06-2019 1:52pm

Excuses are always going to be sought. It was rock/metal music, it was violent movies, it was violent video games, it was pro wrestling, it was porn.

weldoninhio · 19-06-2019 1:53pm

bear1 wrote: »

Horrendous violence porn?
Stupid mistakes, sexual risks and alcohol risks and drug abuse.
The post seems somewhat exaggerated.
I think many of us have seen beyond weird crap on the net.
Two girls one cup? One man one jar?
Rotten.com etc.
I'd say the reason why this is much more prevalent in our younger generation is because it's a form of experimenting.
When you're older you know what not to watch and what not to take or what your limit is but you'd need to experience to know what your limit is.
I wouldn't put it down to stupidity as most teens would be immature as default.

Jesus, I shuddered there when I saw that. Hadn't thought of that video in a long time.

Harry Palmr · 19-06-2019 2:00pm

Children who have also led absolutely mainstream, "boring" lives can and will commit dreadful crimes at some point in their lives.

There is no 'marker' and no two criminal or transgressive acts are the same. So attempting to put people in boxes of behavior or familial/social environment and extrapolate future actions is a fools game.

No doubt we're going to have a passing moral panic about porn and phones, yet the crime we're all talking about is incredibly rare and the origins of it are not yet uncovered.

s7ryf3925pivug · 19-06-2019 2:03pm

well luck's a factor if you have unprotected sex with strangers and dont't have serious consequences for example.

A little bad luck can help too, like getting in enough trouble for something to make you cop on.

James Brown · 19-06-2019 2:05pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I would place an emphasis on parenting. Scumbags emulate scumbags.

Yep, everyone I knew like that came from same. You get the odd wild kid from a decent home but they generally aren't violent or criminal.
Environment, not just at home and socio-economics play a major role.

GreeBo · 19-06-2019 2:13pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Or they are just adolescent children. In very basic brain and neural development terms, as kids our amygdala is what's more in control, the more emotional, "animal", risk taking part of the brain. The frontal cortex is where we make considered rational decisions and that is still forming at that age and doesn't fully form until late teens and things like environmental stress and things like drugs can delay that further(with some it never fully kicks in). So as adults with fully formed brains and minds we can find it hard to judge the minds of children. We have learned not to as most judicial systems in the world have different "ages of reason" going on. A six year old who finds a gun and shoots and kills someone will not be regarded the same way as a 30 year old who does. Adolescents tend to live in the middle ground legally(though places like America that can vary, especially if said adolescent is poor and/or Black).

Sure "right" and "wrong" come into it and that's a comforting if simple response, but they are quite nebulous concepts that constantly shift through time and culture. Very few things we consider today as purely wrong or right have always been considered that way. If you were born and bred in Ancient Rome you would almost certainly not see slavery as a moral wrong. Indeed consider Christianity and its holy books, not a peep about it, yet Jesus and the early church leaders and writers would have been surrounded by it. One of the popes whose name escapes sent the first official missionary(Augustine) to England because the story he goes he saw two Anglo kids in a slave market in Rome and made a lame joke about how like angels they looked and they should be converted. No comment about freeing them and the head of the church was pursuing a slave market. Infanticide was barely frowned upon in certain cultures, usually with some age limit like their first birthday. Rape and murder have regularly been state and culturally sanctioned. Same goes for underage sexual relations, drug taking etc. That list is a long one and depending on time and culture and circumstance our moral compass has many "true norths".

Sorry but I think that is plain nonsense obscured by lofty writing.

We are not talking about a six year old here, we are talking about two teenagers. If your argument is that its normal for a 12 year old to not realise that bullying someone, nevermind raping and murdering them, is wrong then I'll bow out of the conversation here and now. The six year old analogy is irrelevant, you are comparing an accident to a premeditated act. I'm not sure of the relevance of that particular point?
A basic, animalistic response is irrelevant to conversations about premeditated actions.

You say right and wrong are "nebulous concepts that constantly shift through time and culture".
When was the last time that what these 2 boys did was not considered wrong?

Right and Wrong are simple concepts...to you thats a derogatory term, not for me. It doesnt matter what the concepts were in the middle ages any more than it matters what they are in the Serengeti. Here and now is what matters and to any non psychopath right and wrong are typically easy to distinguish.

Is it just luck?

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